AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Total Eclipse/Muv-Luv

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-07-14, 13:39   Link #121
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
Question:

The Laser class are using directed beams right?

But in today's world we have counters to laser guided weaponry.

Does the muv luv universe answer specifically is special about these directed beams that gets around this?
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-14, 14:37   Link #122
Firefly00
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Send a message via ICQ to Firefly00 Send a message via AIM to Firefly00 Send a message via Yahoo to Firefly00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Question:

The Laser class are using directed beams right?
Relevant question: are these pulse lasers (see: Moonraker; the original G.I. Joe animated series) or the 'true' beam variety which have to be held on target for maximum effect (Too Human)?

Quote:
But in today's world we have counters to laser guided weaponry.
Most of those involve disrupting the guidance beam; or (seen in some Dale Brown novels) using a low-power laser to burn out the seeker head. If we're talking about actual laser weapons, some settings use a combination of hull design and hull rotation; the latter measure is intended to increase survivability by not letting the beam settle on one spot for long... theoretically possible for reentry vehicles and artillery shells. Of course, the effectiveness of such measures also depends on how much power the laser is pumping downrange.

Quote:
Does the muv luv universe answer specifically is special about these directed beams that gets around this?
I suspect this might be a case of BETA lasers being powerful enough to simply overcome whatever countermeasures might be in play.
__________________
White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts
"Destroyed overnight, or the next one's free."
Arc Nova
Firefly00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-14, 20:06   Link #123
DoomRavager
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2010
The SFX used and the technical description of their effect and appropriate evasiom measures in the VN would suggest that they behave as actual beams.

And the VN did address several countermeasures like ablative coating and heavy metal dust clouds, and the answer was "well yeah you have those BUT it only reduces the effectiveness not eliminates it entirely so there".
DoomRavager is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 09:05   Link #124
Hypernova
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Virgo Supercluster, Milky Way, Orion Arm, Sol, Earth, Taiwan
Age: 29
Besides orbital kinetic what about orbital energy strike using focused solar? With the tech they have they should have no trouble build giant mirrors in space. This solves the power issue since you only need them for manipulation of the mirrors.
Hypernova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 09:17   Link #125
grevierr
The Lovable SuBiTA
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sleeping in Yokohama base, Section 9.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
Besides orbital kinetic what about orbital energy strike using focused solar? With the tech they have they should have no trouble build giant mirrors in space. This solves the power issue since you only need them for manipulation of the mirrors.
Tech level. You need Very Big Scary Mirrors to build Big Scary Mirrors. And you need lots of mirrors in a Very Scary Array to produce an "Earth Shaking Kaboom" beam. Even now on earth there is only one institution capable of production small space mirrors strong enough for a few mega joules.
__________________


When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt. Run in little circles, wave your arms and shout.
grevierr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 09:54   Link #126
Hypernova
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Virgo Supercluster, Milky Way, Orion Arm, Sol, Earth, Taiwan
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by grevierr View Post
Tech level. You need Very Big Scary Mirrors to build Big Scary Mirrors. And you need lots of mirrors in a Very Scary Array to produce an "Earth Shaking Kaboom" beam. Even now on earth there is only one institution capable of production small space mirrors strong enough for a few mega joules.
You don't have to go for kaboom, a slow unstoppable bake would do just as fine. As for mirrors you don't need one giant mirror but sever smaller ones.

Alternatives you can have a space laser that is solar powered, considering that the in universe limitation is power supply IMO it's a viable plan. Not to mention this kind of weapons are one time investments (ignoring upkeep) which beats throwing away resources building cannon fodder and ammo.
Hypernova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 10:28   Link #127
encia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GMT 10+
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
It's not ionization so much as being flash atomized or ripped apart by shockwave.

No human nuclear radiation weapon around is capable of that
It depends on the magnitude and intensity e.g. a free electron laser with gamma frequency photons (EM) with sufficient wattage/power. With sufficient wattage/power, the output would be similar to a nuclear blast at a given yield rating.

Gamma frequency photons unusually degrades to lower frequency photons as it travels within the atmosphere i.e. this is the main source for the X-Ray/UV/heat/visual/IR frequency photons (EM) in a nuclear blast i.e. hydrodynamic nuclear shockwave function. http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq3.html

A fusion reactor (controlled fusion nuclear reaction) with particle accelerated (like a rail gun) channel would give you a high end frequency photons beam and charged particle (plasma) beam. We just need to master a controlled fusion nuclear reaction at a given rating.

The principle similar to most for Sci-Fi/mecha shows with a proper beam weapons e.g.
1. Starwars Death Star's superlaser, but replace the fusion reactor with "Hyperspace" core.
2. Star Trek's EM mode phasers or "plasma phaser"(anti-Borg phaser), but replace the fusion reactor with an anti-matter/matter/warp (subspace energy tap component) core.
3. In Gundam Seed, they use a nuclear weapon's gamma frequency photons yield and re-channelled it into an energy beam, thus creating a gamma photon beam weapon i.e. can nuke most of USA.

Think about what makes an object solid (instead of gas/liquid state) and the energy to change it's matter state. KE impact still follows the same mechanisms. We could calculate the energy from the sword as it impacts and slices a BETA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
They don't function like normal lifeforms so if you intend to screw with their physiological workings....no. Only way is to flat out destroy them.
Without fancy shields, they still follow the same physics rules e.g. naval weapons fire still affects BETAs.

A human nuclear radiation weapon that has similar 16 inch naval gun shells(chemical based) energy yield would have similar results.

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-15 at 10:49.
encia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 10:31   Link #128
DoomRavager
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2010
@Hypernova; Well, I hope your unstoppable slow bake can reach down through six kilometers of dirt full of tunnels lined with xenotech EM wave absorbing materials sturdy enough to withstand multiple tactical nuclear devices (or the non-nuclear equivalent in yield), and heat up the target at the bottom enough to cause it to burn up (and who knows how durable it really is), hope they don't have a countermeasure, and if they don't hope you get the job done within nineteen days before some kind of heat dissipation countermeasure appears. And keep it exactly on target all that time. I'm not exactly familiar with the physics involved in large-scale sunlight focusing for the purposes of attacking a deep underground complex.

I would not be surprised if the BETA had some kind of preexisting measures that can be deployed for operation in very high temperature environs. Though that's getting into speculation territory.

@encia: Well, they did build a charged particle cannon in Muv-Luv Alternative at least, and it worked pretty damn well when they were able to deploy it in such a way that lasers couldn't shoot at it. All I said was that radiation sickness wouldn't happen because their physiology is nothing like Earth organism physiology (which is why you might argue that you may as well just use a straight up nuke explosion rather than one designed specially to release most of its energy as fast neutrons), I didn't say you couldn't blow them away.

They never did build a nuclear fusion reactor though. They threw their R&D budget into mastering the Gray Elements so they could build spacetime-warping engines, which conveniently generate enough electricity when in operation to power their war machine.

Last edited by DoomRavager; 2012-07-15 at 10:45.
DoomRavager is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 10:50   Link #129
encia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: GMT 10+
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Question:

The Laser class are using directed beams right?

But in today's world we have counters to laser guided weaponry.

Does the muv luv universe answer specifically is special about these directed beams that gets around this?
Not against free electron laser i.e. depends on the magnitude and intensity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager
Well, they did build a charged particle cannon in Muv-Luv Alternative at least, and it worked pretty damn well when they were able to deploy it in such a way that lasers couldn't shoot at it. All I said was that radiation sickness wouldn't happen because their physiology is nothing like Earth organism physiology (which is why you might argue that you may as well just use a straight up nuke explosion rather than one designed specially to release most of its energy as fast neutrons), I didn't say you couldn't blow them away.
It depends on how they shield against sub-atomic particle attacks. Can they handle nuclear transmutation effects (can release photon energy = ionizing radiation)?

The same magnitude and intensity rules apply.

Last edited by encia; 2012-07-15 at 11:09.
encia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 10:52   Link #130
Hypernova
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Virgo Supercluster, Milky Way, Orion Arm, Sol, Earth, Taiwan
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRavager View Post
@Hypernova; Well, I hope your unstoppable slow bake can reach down through six kilometers of dirt full of tunnels lined with xenotech EM wave absorbing materials sturdy enough to withstand multiple tactical nuclear devices (or the non-nuclear equivalent in yield), and heat up the target at the bottom enough to cause it to burn up (and who knows how durable it really is), hope they don't have a countermeasure, and if they don't hope you get the job done within nineteen days before some kind of heat dissipation countermeasure appears. And keep it exactly on target all that time. I'm not exactly familiar with the physics involved in large-scale sunlight focusing for the purposes of attacking a deep underground complex.

I would not be surprised if the BETA had some kind of preexisting measures that can be deployed for operation in very high temperature environs. Though that's getting into speculation territory.

@encia: Well, they did build a charged particle cannon in Muv-Luv Alternative at least, and it worked pretty damn well when they were able to deploy it in such a way that lasers couldn't shoot at it. All I said was that radiation sickness wouldn't happen because their physiology is nothing like Earth organism physiology (which is why you might argue that you may as well just use a straight up nuke explosion rather than one designed specially to release most of its energy as fast neutrons), I didn't say you couldn't blow them away.

They never did build a nuclear fusion reactor though. They threw their R&D budget into mastering the Gray Elements so they could build spacetime-warping engines, which conveniently generate enough electricity when in operation to power their war machine.
Even if it can't destroy a hive it may find use as a tactical weapon against surface BETAs, anything that allows long range attack without risk is a great aid in battle. You may have lost air superiority but you still got the orbitals. As it is I see them making very poor utilization of this critical advantage.
Hypernova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 10:53   Link #131
DoomRavager
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by encia View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Question:

The Laser class are using directed beams right?

But in today's world we have counters to laser guided weaponry.

Does the muv luv universe answer specifically is special about these directed beams that gets around this?
Not against free electron laser i.e. depends on the magnitude and intensity.
And ML lasers use Gray Elements in their construction, which amount to physics-warping magical black box materials. Who knows how tunable/adaptable their frequency and intensity are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
Even if it can't destroy a hive it may find use as a tactical weapon against surface BETAs, anything that allows long range attack without risk is a great aid in battle. You may have lost air superiority but you still got the orbitals. As it is I see them making very poor utilization of this critical advantage.
Perhaps so. Perhaps one could speculate that such a measure was proposed but turned down for any number of reasons, for example perhaps resources diverted to the Alternative V fleet or something.
DoomRavager is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 12:42   Link #132
LystAP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Spoiler for The BETA:
LystAP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 18:45   Link #133
Angrypokstick
So....its you.....
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: take a guess?
Age: 27
More info on lasers.
Spoiler:
Angrypokstick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 20:03   Link #134
Belgaesh
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: At the Intersection of Life
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrypokstick View Post
More info on lasers.
Spoiler:
Your post is very important, because it clarifies one of the discussions that were holden here: "Why they don't use mirrors against those lasers"

Spoiler for Contains MLA spoliers:
Belgaesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 20:09   Link #135
NoemiChan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philippines
Age: 27
Send a message via Yahoo to NoemiChan Send a message via Skype™ to NoemiChan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgaesh View Post
Your post is very important, because it clarifies one of the discussions that were holden here: "Why they don't use mirrors against those lasers"

Spoiler for Contains MLA spoliers:

Guess... the last solution is artillery.... lots and lots of artillery... from the sea...
NoemiChan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 20:20   Link #136
Silvance
Storm Vanguard
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Type-00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrypokstick View Post
More info on lasers.
Spoiler:
Ah, I saw that image in /m/ before. Haha. Yeah, very useful post regarding the Laser class.
Silvance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 20:41   Link #137
Hypernova
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Virgo Supercluster, Milky Way, Orion Arm, Sol, Earth, Taiwan
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Guess... the last solution is artillery.... lots and lots of artillery... from the sea...
Nay, from space!
Hypernova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 20:43   Link #138
NoemiChan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philippines
Age: 27
Send a message via Yahoo to NoemiChan Send a message via Skype™ to NoemiChan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
Nay, from space!
Its way safer behind a mountain or under a trench... than in space .. unless you use the moon as cover... its the lasers man....
NoemiChan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 20:45   Link #139
Silvance
Storm Vanguard
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Type-00
how about tying up a dead BETA on the shield as they approach the laser class? They don't shoot their own kind after all. Might just work? No? :3

Jokes aside, I'm glad there aren't any flying type BETA yet...
Silvance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-15, 20:48   Link #140
NoemiChan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philippines
Age: 27
Send a message via Yahoo to NoemiChan Send a message via Skype™ to NoemiChan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvance View Post
how about tying up a dead BETA on the shield as they approach the laser class? They don't shoot their own kind after all. Might just work? No? :3
Now, that gave me an idea. Can a laser class kill a tank class? I mean penetrate the armor? If not the we got ourselves a shield man... Aka. TSF with shield.... Legionaire!!! Testugo!!!
NoemiChan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
military science fiction, visual novel

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.