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View Poll Results: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's - Rating
Perfect 10 14 22.95%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 16 26.23%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 21.31%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 4.92%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 13.11%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 3.28%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 4.92%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.64%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.64%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-14, 14:55   Link #201
Keroko
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I don't recall "must talk with the heroes" to be a requirement to be the center of a story. An often used method to help centralize a character, sure, but a requirement? Not so much.

And yes, a 9 year old taking care of a family is some crazy insane maturity. But so is a 9 year old fighting on a similar level with an experienced knight. Or a 9 year old being part of a military organization tasked with keeping peace through the multiverse.

In short: It's just Nanoha to have kids with crazy maturity. Weird plothole, but a consistent one at least.
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Old 2013-03-14, 15:04   Link #202
Sansker
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I never say it was a requirement. I say that she is away from them and that adds up to all the other things I say. And I meant the series not the final battle which she still is away until the very end. On the second level that is just silly. One thing is fighting and another is seeing a 9 years old being a mom. Ok, I don’t take both concepts that easy or as similar. Weird and consistence, yes, but I think this is a little more odd than the other.

I still hold to what I have been saying that goes beyond Hayate’s actions. I am not saying she didn’t do what she did I am saying that those actions doesn’t mean she is a main character or the focus of this story. For each of those roles Hayate really is not well set. She is a little too passive, we do focus more on the Wolkenritter, she remains away from the plot until the final fight and she really gets in to this without knowing who is who and what is going on but yet she takes all of that, learns to control ancient magic in two seconds and resolves the problem. Bad? No really, but that is why I say she is more of a plot device than a character when I join her actions to her shallow persona. I just don’t see her as a main character.
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Old 2013-03-14, 15:08   Link #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
I never say it was a requirement.
Quote:
Hayate is just never in contact with the heroes until near the end and she is again push aside from the entire battle. If she was the focus and center then she should be more in contact with everything
Really, now? You never said it was a requirement?

Quote:
I just don’t see her as a main character.
And that's where you're wrong. See, Sansker, this is the kind of thing that gets people upset with you. You can have an opinion, that's fine, but saying, flat out that a main character is not a main character (in your opinion) is just wrong.

Even the most die-hard NanoFate fans will admit that Hayate's a main character. And those are the fans that give the rest of the fandom a bad name.
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Old 2013-03-14, 15:20   Link #204
Sansker
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So? I am staying my reasons as always, I don’t see why you need to get angry about it. You just don’t agree with me, fine, you don’t need to scream or insult because of that. And to be fair I haven’t encounter that much of bad attitude on NanoFate fans, despite the hard words they have for Yuuno.
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Old 2013-03-14, 15:26   Link #205
bhl88
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Shouldn't the sign of a main character be:

Has tons of merchandise related to her?
(Figures, figma, huggable pillows, necklaces, etc.)
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Old 2013-03-14, 15:50   Link #206
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No really look at Boba Fett from Star Wars. The guy doesn't do much, doesn't say anything and he had already a lot of merchandise related to him. Now he has been in more stories beyond the movies but still.
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Old 2013-03-14, 16:38   Link #207
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He has appeared in several movies.

So characters need to walk and talk to be a main character?

He just got Solo and they have to rescue that guy, what makes you think he isn't?

Hayate changed to Wolks and took care of them (and made Riot Force 6, in chess, she'd probably be the king), what makes you think she's not a main chara?

(and yes, Haruhi's a main character in Disappearance, even though she wasn't there for most of the story [besides the two days of the party, the climax and the end]).
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:11   Link #208
Keroko
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No, I agree with Sansker on this one. Fan popularity is no indication of main character status.

Having said that, being on the front lines is still no requirement to be a main character. Everything in the story revolves around Hayate. The story begins showing Hayate's tragedy, it continues with Hayate being immediately central to everything the Wolkenritter are, everything the knights do serves to expand on Hayate, she is the critical trigger that starts the climax and the key to its resolution. Even the epilogue is about how Hayate must deal with loss.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:12   Link #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Really, now? You never said it was a requirement?



And that's where you're wrong. See, Sansker, this is the kind of thing that gets people upset with you. You can have an opinion, that's fine, but saying, flat out that a main character is not a main character (in your opinion) is just wrong.
Pot calling the kettle black.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:16   Link #210
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Pot calling the kettle black.
Nanya said that Fate wasn't as important overall event-wise as Hayate; he never said Fate wasn't a main character.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:22   Link #211
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Pot calling the kettle black.
And where did I say Fate wasn't a main character?
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:27   Link #212
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You said she was less important than a number of side characters. That's arguably worse. If you can come to that conclusion, then I don't see how Sankster is any more wrong from a subjective point of view.

And yes, I think Hayate is a main character. She's not who I was referring to.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:32   Link #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
You said she was less important than a number of side characters. That's arguably worse.

And yes, I think Hayate is a main character. She's not who I was referring to.
A main character doesn't have to have major impact on the plot over-all to be a main character, Demi.

Look at, oh, say, FSN. If Kiritsugu hadn't found Shirou, then he'd be dead and we'd have no main for that series.

or DBZ, Dr. Gero was a VERY minor character in Dragonball, and yet his effects were felt during the Cell arc. Now, compare to other main characters in DBZ, he had more effect on the plot than most of them did.

That's what I mean, Demi. You can be a main character and not affect the world at large compared to side characters at times.

I mean, it's hard to compare Fate's contributions to the series over-all compared to Graham or Jail, both of whom are the reasons that several plots even can work in this series.

Are they main characters? Nope. I never said they were. I'm just saying, they have more effect on the plot than Fate does.

Edit: Come to think of it, what about One Piece? The ULTIMATE minor character is someone that they all talk about, he's dead, but his treasure is what drives the plot (at least it did up until I stopped paying attention to the series.)
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:41   Link #214
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You also have no idea what characters will ultimately be important, since the author has a habit of bringing them back to do things.

A bit villain in one arc was responsible for the protagonist getting out of jail after he got his ass kicked and going to save his brother.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:44   Link #215
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
You said she was less important than a number of side characters. That's arguably worse. If you can come to that conclusion, then I don't see how Sankster is any more wrong from a subjective point of view.
Well on a plot wide scale... she is less important than a few other characters. In S1 she was critical to pretty much everything, but in A's far less so, where her role was reduced to only "keep Signum occupied" as it were. It didn't exactly help that she was taken out early in the final battle either. The Lotus Eater dream was purely Fate-centric, but that means it had no impact on the rest of the A's plot to speak of.

Then there's StrikerS, where she's mainly responsible for exposition. Her final battle with Jail was... well, it certainly was a critical battle, but not with the same sense of urgency Vita and Nanoha faced.

Compare that to a character like, say, Jail who only featured in one season, but without whom neither S1 nor StrikerS would ever happened.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:45   Link #216
Demi.
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It's much easier to slightly change a story to shift a side character out of the picture, then it is to completely remove a main character. You remove graham, and you have a few plot holes that need tending to. Remove Fate? And you have a massive gaping hole to where she once was. And a lot more of the story would need to be reworked.

As for One Piece, yes, the Gold D. Roger plays a roll in the series, yet I would not consider him more important than any of the mains, who have all had their own arc. He's merely a goal at the finish line. Yet to remove the main cast would mean to remove entire arcs from the series. Not to mention all those fights they've had along the way. Or find some other way to implement them.

You can't say a character that barely appears is more important than a main character. I'm sorry, it's just not possible. Regardless what kind of logic you try to rationalize it with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroko
Then there's StrikerS, where she's mainly responsible for exposition. Her final battle with Jail was... well, it certainly was a critical battle, but not with the same sense of urgency Vita and Nanoha faced.
If we're using the snowball effect once again. Nanoha would not even have had that battle if not for Fate. She is the only reason Vivio was born. Yet I consider things like these far less important, because they're mere plotholes that can be patched.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:53   Link #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
It's much easier to slightly change a story to shift a side character out of the picture, then it is to completely remove a main character. You remove graham, and you have a few plot holes that need tending to. Remove Fate? And you have a massive gaping hole to where she once was. And a lot more of the story would need to be reworked.
Graham's kind of a major reason A's was able to happen, Demi. Don't let your bias towards Fate blind you towards that.

And, really, you'd have to rewrite the ENTIRE plot of A's to make it work without Graham. Like, how does Hayate live alone without someone supporting her? How does Chrono NOT capture Shamal when he had her outside of that barrier? How does Vita NOT get blown up in the desert? (Lotte and Aria were responsible for both, and, guess what? They're Graham's familiars)

And, Demi., again, your bias towards Fate is showing through majorly here.

Do you REALLY think that Jail, genius that he is, with Unlimited Desire and wanting everything, could NOT finish Project F?

And Fate's role in the series in Season 1 was to be a rival to Nanoha. A's? What's her role there? Show up to stop Vita from pummeling Nanoha, get beaten by Signum, then stall Signum out while the Twins make their moves.

Even though she's a main character, Demi., Fate's affect on the plot is relatively small.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:55   Link #218
Keroko
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If we're using the snowball effect once again. would not even have had that battle if not for Fate. She is the only reason Vivio was born. Yet I consider things like these far less important, because they're mere plotholes that can be patched.
Actually, the even more critical factor we'd be looking at here is Jail again, without whom Fate wouldn't even be born.

Retcons are weird that way.

Quote:
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Graham's kind of a major reason A's was able to happen, Demi. Don't let your bias towards Fate blind you towards that.

And, really, you'd have to rewrite the ENTIRE plot of A's to make it work without Graham. Like, how does Hayate live alone without someone supporting her? How does Chrono NOT capture Shamal when he had her outside of that barrier? How does Vita NOT get blown up in the desert? (Lotte and Aria were responsible for both, and, guess what? They're Graham's familiars)
Ditto if you take out Fate though. Someone's going to have to keep Signum occupied. Oh, and Zafira too, given how no Fate means no Arf.

Fate's impact on the A's plot as a development was not that big as it was in S1, but make no mistake she was still pretty damn important.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:57   Link #219
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Graham's kind of a major reason A's was able to happen, Demi. Don't let your bias towards Fate blind you towards that.

And, really, you'd have to rewrite the ENTIRE plot of A's to make it work without Graham. Like, how does Hayate live alone without someone supporting her? How does Chrono NOT capture Shamal when he had her outside of that barrier? How does Vita NOT get blown up in the desert? (Lotte and Aria were responsible for both, and, guess what? They're Graham's familiars)
And he was easily and rather effortlessly removed from the A's movie, while most of the movie continued to stay true to the series. Point taken.

From what I recall, Ishida does her best to take care of Hayate. And the director is the one who decided Graham and the Twins were the least significant, hence why they were removed.

I don't remember A's enough to give an answer to the other ones, yet while I was watching it, I didn't feel like it was full of plot holes that made no sense.


I don't really have much more to say, but if you can think of Fate as less important than Graham or Jail, Sankster can think of Hayate as a minor character without much relevance in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 2013-03-14, 17:58   Link #220
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Ditto if you take out fate though. Someone's going to have to keep Signum occupied. Oh, and Zafira too, given how no Fate means no Arf.
Hmm, I can give you that one. I suspect that Chrono and Yuuno would have had to step up their roles if no Fate though. (We saw Yuuno hold off Vita in that first fight after all.) Nanoha would probably fight Signum instead of Vita though. Hmm...

Though, Shamal would be left alone...

then again, she never fought much.
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