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View Poll Results: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's - Rating
Perfect 10 14 23.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 16 26.67%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 20.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 5.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 13.33%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 3.33%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 5.00%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.67%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-14, 19:14   Link #241
Nanya01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Now I am mentally ill? That is actually funny. This keeps getting more and more ridicules every single time we end up like this. I donít care what they say; I already express my reasons and arguments about this.
Sansker, I need to point out that sanity is determined by the masses. If your view of reality doesn't mesh with that of the majority of the world, you tend to get labeled mentally ill.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:15   Link #242
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How does she pay for medical bills? Food? Electricity? Water? The ability to pay off officials who would either ship her off to an orphanage or foster family, or assign her a caregiver? Japan, more than most countries, is fairly in touch with making sure kids have guardians(or at least going to school). Even Fate needed a guardian once she lost Precia. If she has enough money to pay for all that, then she's relatively rich, and should have a butler or maid or something. Beyond that, Ishida would be duty-bound to report that Hayate is living alone.

While I only picked up on them leaving her the house, they could have easily left her a good sum of money as well.

Quote:
And Graham found her because he was tracking the book. Given magic is involved, it is not hard to see him with the drive and the ability to find it.
So he had the means to find a book that could have been anywhere else in the universe, before it was even activated? And if that's the case, why was he the only one that showed any real interest in it, if it were so easily track-able.

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On Earth? in Japan? What Japanese child in Japan, in the Nanoha series, lived alone? Hell, even in Mid-Childa, Erio and Caro were taken to shelters. Japanese ideals and social/cultural aspects tend to find themselves woven into even off-world human societies.
None of those ideals ring true in the Nanoha series. Just because none of the few of the children we saw lived alone, doesn't mean they couldn't. They would just need to have the means to do so.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:18   Link #243
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The only kid we EVER saw living on his own without support was Touma in Force.

And what happens?

Subaru drags him home with her because he was living on his own.

And, Demi., do you have ANY idea how expensive a house the size Hayate lives in is in Japan?
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:18   Link #244
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Arf has her own linker core and can process her own mana. Sure, she ultimately relies on getting some from Fate, but it is obviously not much. That would indicate she can survive for a time without it... long enough for Fate to recover enough to send her some.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
While I only picked up on them leaving her the house, they could have easily left her a good sum of money as well.
I don't think you realize just how much money would be required. Unless she is super filthy rich, the Japanese government *will* find her a guardian/foster family/orphanage. Just like elsewhere, kids have less rights than adults, and need a guardian.

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So he had the means to find a book that could have been anywhere else in the universe, before it was even activated? And if that's the case, why was he the only one that showed any real interest in it, if it were so easily track-able.
It wouldn't be the first time someone had access to magic that no one else did. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility, especially considering Earth is Graham's home planet, for him to detect it was there. And he had every intention of keeping his method of tracking secret from the Bureau, given how he planned to deal with it.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:21   Link #245
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And it's not like Fate had her core drained entirely, so there was probably still a trickle of mana for Arf to use. Just not enough for Fate to do active spellwork with until she began recovering.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:21   Link #246
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Originally Posted by Nanya
And, Demi., do you have ANY idea how expensive a house the size Hayate lives in is in Japan?

Aren't we bringing real life values and inflation into an anime here?

Another thing that made no sense to me was Grahams solution to the problem because it had no way of working out and he should have realized this. Chrono knew this, why didn't he? The only reason it even worked was because Arc En Ciel was used, yet Graham never factored that into his plans.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:23   Link #247
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While I only picked up on them leaving her the house, they could have easily left her a good sum of money as well.
As I pointed out, unless they were filthy rich, even a good sum of money wouldn't be enough for what Hayate was accomplishing on her own.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
So he had the means to find a book that could have been anywhere else in the universe, before it was even activated? And if that's the case, why was he the only one that showed any real interest in it, if it were so easily track-able.
Because he found it by chance, as it was stated, and he had been pretty traumatized by having to kill a good friend and comrade in order to destroy the Book, widowing another good friend and leaving their son childless?

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
None of those ideals ring true in the Nanoha series. Just because none of the few of the children we saw lived alone, doesn't mean they couldn't. They would just need to have the means to do so.
So, you're unfamiliar with how things work in Japan. We'll educate you on that.

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Aren't we bringing real life values and inflation into an anime here?
Since it had bearing on the plot and characterization to a degree in the original product? Yeah.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Another thing that made no sense to me was Grahams solution to the problem because it had no way of working out and he should have realized this. Chrono knew this, why didn't he? The only reason it even worked was because Arc En Ciel was used, yet Graham never factored that into his plans.
Because it didn't work. Graham's plan was to buy time to find a real solution to destroying the Book for good, and since it left a chance for someone to free her for ill intent, that was what Chrono had issues with. As for the Arc-en-Ciel, it didn't work. Sure, it obliterated the program, but Reinforce stated in the next episode that the Book of Darkness was just going to regenerate it again, which is why she had Nanoha and Fate seal her off.

And if you want to know what would've happened if Reinforce didn't do that... well, we have the Battle of Aces game to show us that road.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:23   Link #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Aren't we bringing real life values and inflation into an anime here?

Another thing that made no sense to me was Grahams solution to the problem because it had no way of working out and he should have realized this. Chrono knew this, why didn't he. The only reason it even worked was because Arc En Ciel was used, yet Graham never factored that into his plans.
It was the only plan he could think of. It might not have been perfect, but he hoped to at least contain it for a long while, and thus save other people and planets. Imperfect, yes. But not completely irrational.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:25   Link #249
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Yes, we know. It's been a constant flow of you saying something sucks for an opinion you hold up as fact, then shutting down the debate whenever we attempt to prove you wrong. We're quite familiar with the cycle by now.
You canít proof me wrong because it is base in an opinion. Maybe that is why I just donít get you guys. You look at things that canít be level as right or wrong in a specific term and still insist you can.

But Nanya is right, sanity is determinate by the masses in what we call ďsocially acceptedĒ but with that logic we are all crazy here because we spend our time talking about a Japanese cartoon that has 9 years all, talking animals and talking machines. So really if we are about to bring that I think this will be odd.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:28   Link #250
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You canít proof me wrong because it is base in an opinion. Maybe that is why I just donít get you guys. You look at things that canít be level as right or wrong in a specific term and still insist you can.

But Nanya is right, sanity is determinate by the masses in what we call ďsocially acceptedĒ but with that logic we are all crazy here because we spend our time talking about a Japanese cartoon that has 9 years all, talking animals and talking machines. So really if we are about to bring that I think this will be odd.
Yes, we know. An opinion is an opinion. What our problem is is that you constantly claim your opinion to be objective fact, which is wrong and we keep proving you wrong. Your actions afterwards amount to you closing your eyes and ears and saying you can't hear us, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:29   Link #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Another thing that made no sense to me was Grahams solution to the problem because it had no way of working out and he should have realized this. Chrono knew this, why didn't he. The only reason it even worked was because Arc En Ciel was used, yet Graham never factored that into his plans.
Demi., I have to say this, you're wrong about this.

Chrono did NOT know that Graham's plan would not work out. Chrono was against it for 2 reasons, 1: Hayate did not yet commit a crime and 2: Ultimately, the book would have gotten out much later on down the line. In fact, Chrono said that his plan WOULD work, to freeze the Book between dimensions, but it wouldn't last forever.

And, yes, Graham probably DID figure the Arc en Ciel into it, after all, he NUKED the book with that thing before (remember how Clyde die?).

And, no, Demi., nuking the Protection Program with the Arc en Ciel would not solve anything. Reinforce SPECIFICALLY stated that even though the Protection Program was gone, it would regenerate inside of her and the WHOLE process would start ALL over again. That's why she allowed herself to get sealed away.

Or did you not watch that part of the anime?

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Aren't we bringing real life values and inflation into an anime here?
Not really. Look at Nanoha's parents and the size of the house they're in. Now, think about this, Shiro was a bodyguard/ninja/assassin who came from a fairly large clan, thus he had a lot of money. He runs a bakery with his wife, that pretty much would put him in the upper middle class at the least, thus they can afford the house. Look at Suzuka and Arisa, they're filthy rich and look at the size of their property.

Hayate's house is about the size of Nanoha's house, so, that means that Hayate's family was likely in the same category as Nanoha's family financially.

Whenever you see someone in anime living in a house in Japan, they're either A: in the country, B: Well off, C: ancestral home, or D: own it through connections to either the mob or the government.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:32   Link #252
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Mountain out of an ant hill. That's the saying, right?

I personally don't see how the inconsistencies I stated are less of a plot-hole then how Hayate can live alone (which is rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things, imo). They can all be "explained" by use of rhetoric. But it seems to me like they're assumptions, and not fact based.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:35   Link #253
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Mountain out of a ant hill. That's the saying, right?

I personally don't see how the inconsistencies I stated are less of a plot-hole then how Hayate can live alone (which is rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things, imo). They can all be "explained" by use of rhetoric. But it seems to me like they're assumptions, and not fact based.
We already explained how it is significant in the grand scheme, Demi.. It's part of the whole characterization of Hayate and her wish, and thus has a rather large bearing on the Wolkenritter's motivations. Yes, it can be explained. Right now, though? We don't have an explanation, as the original explanation was written right out of the film.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:35   Link #254
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Mountain out of a ant hill. That's the saying, right?

I personally don't see how the inconsistencies I stated are less of a plot-hole then how Hayate can live alone (which is rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things, imo). They can all be "explained" by use of rhetoric. But it seems to me like they're assumptions, and not fact based.
Because, Demi., as we've stated, Graham's finding of Hayate is small compared to Hayate living on her own.

There is no way that a girl that's 9 years old should be able to live on her own. Doubly so since she's in a wheelchair.

So, no, Hayate living alone is a BIGGER issue than Graham finding Hayate, Demi.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:38   Link #255
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Yes, we know. An opinion is an opinion. What our problem is is that you constantly claim your opinion to be objective fact, which is wrong and we keep proving you wrong. Your actions afterwards amount to you closing your eyes and ears and saying you can't hear us, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter.
You have proof me wrong on some of my ideas, like Graham in A's. But on others you didn't and I still hold on those opinions.

My opinion is not an objective fact, is the way the facts can be interpretated acording to me. So I base my opinion on the facts but look at them in a different light.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:40   Link #256
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You have proof me wrong on some of my ideas, like Graham in A's. But on others you didn't and I still hold on those opinions.

My opinion is not an objective fact, is the way the facts can be interpretated acording to me. So I base my opinion on the facts but look at them in a different light.
Keep this in mind, then, when you decide to bring the cycle up again. Might save yourself a headache that way, because you've left a rather unfortunately negative first impression on everyone here.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:40   Link #257
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To compare:
  • High ranking TSAB officer finds the Book and keeps a lid on it's location.
  • 9 year old girl living alone.
Which one would be more deserving on an explanation? The first practically explains itself. High ranking TSAB officer = lots of resources to find the book and lots of power to keep a lid on its location. The later though Thaaat kind of needs an explanation.

Though it's really a plothole of the Suspension of Disbelief caliber. Not really vital to the story.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:42   Link #258
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Sansker, a little something for you from the first Men in Black movie...

"Thousands of years ago, everyone knew that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Hundreds of years ago, they knew that the Earth was flat. Just yesterday you knew that humans were the only species in the universe. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

Facts and opinions, Sansker, can be wrong if evidence against them comes out strong enough, no matter what anyone says.

I can say that an apple tastes the same as an orange to me. Would I be right? In my mind, if I believed that, yes, but I would be wrong and that's the truth.

So, is Hayate a main character? Yes. YOU are the only one who says otherwise. Go ask Nanochan or NanoFate.us or even 4Chan if Hayate's a main character in A's. They'll ALL tell you "yes".

Really, Sansker, you are the ONLY person who says that she's not a main character.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:43   Link #259
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Because, Demi., as we've stated, Graham's finding of Hayate is small compared to Hayate living on her own.

There is no way that a girl that's 9 years old should be able to live on her own. Doubly so since she's in a wheelchair.

So, no, Hayate living alone is a BIGGER issue than Graham finding Hayate, Demi.
It doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the series, though. It's a minor issue that most casual fans wouldn't even consider while viewing it.

You can explain how Graham found Hayate by saying it was all coincidence, I can say Hayate is able to live on her own because of the large sum of money she (possibly) inherited. Whether it's true or not, that's all Tsuzuki would have had to explain to make sense of how Hayate is able to live alone. Keep in mind, she wasn't living alone all her life, that inheritance didn't have to be "billions" of dollars as some people like to put it.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:45   Link #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
You can’t proof me wrong because it is base in an opinion. Maybe that is why I just don’t get you guys. You look at things that can’t be level as right or wrong in a specific term and still insist you can.

But Nanya is right, sanity is determinate by the masses in what we call “socially accepted” but with that logic we are all crazy here because we spend our time talking about a Japanese cartoon that has 9 years all, talking animals and talking machines. So really if we are about to bring that I think this will be odd.
Sansker, there are these things called facts. Despite how you might feel about them, that doesn't change the fact that they are facts. Hayate being a main character is a fact. You might not like it, but your opinion and feelings are irrelevant. Hell, I don't like some things about Nanoha. That doesn't change the fact that they are what they are. I learned to accept it. So can you.

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Mountain out of an ant hill. That's the saying, right?

I personally don't see how the inconsistencies I stated are less of a plot-hole then how Hayate can live alone (which is rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things, imo). They can all be "explained" by use of rhetoric. But it seems to me like they're assumptions, and not fact based.
This is probably rehashing old territory, but... Hayate was alone. That was the reason she so took to the Wolkenritter, because it meant she was no longer alone. Her only wish was to live together with her family. Without Graham to financially support her and pay for everything *and* be listed as her legal guardian, the government would have shipped her off long ago. In addition, he specifically arranged for her to continue being alone, so no one else would suffer when he ultimately sealed her away.

And without Graham's monetary assistance, Hayate would have never been able to afford the kind of medical care she got with Ishida. Ishida was the one who told the Wolkenritter that Hayate's paralysis was advancing and would kill her, thus forming the basis for why they started to work on the book.

In short, without both Graham's financial support and being listed as her legal guardian, Hayate would be placed in an orphanage. She'd make friends there, and then no longer be alone. The Wolkenritter wouldn't have had as much of an impact on her. Graham was more than just money... he was her legal guardian and he was arranging for her to stay alone.

MAYBE that can be worked around; I haven't seen the movie nor the English subtitles. MAYBE it is explained.

But we don't KNOW. At least we admit we don't know. Can you at least admit that much? That you don't know everything because you haven't seen a proper translation yet? Do you really want to claim to be a prophet that can predict something where you don't have all the information yet? You may turn out to be right, so can't you at least admit for a few weeks, that you don't know? Is it that hard?
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