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View Poll Results: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's - Rating
Perfect 10 14 23.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 16 26.67%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 20.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 5.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 13.33%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 3.33%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 5.00%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.67%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-25, 21:47   Link #681
Nanya01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Ah, a StrikerS brother-in-arms. Nice to see someone here with good opinions (rather than the typical 'blah blah dragged out should've been one cour' stuff).
Numbers are my favorite characters.

I still go back to re-read the Sound Stages just to revisit their scenes.
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Old 2013-03-25, 22:08   Link #682
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I'm the other one who got Schwertkreuz because of StrikerS.
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Old 2013-03-25, 22:16   Link #683
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
So, fluff is badass?
I never knew that two nine/ten year old girls looking like total kendo/swordfighting badasses while they train against each other was "fluff".

I didn't like that scene because of NanoFate. "Romance" didn't even cross my mind there. I was thinking "Wow... these girls are amazingly good fighters!"


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Cuz it's completely forgettable and pointless.
If it was "completely forgettable" we wouldn't be talking about it right now.

It's a harmless little scene that I really enjoyed, and thought had several positive qualities about it. I think it has excellent value for such a short scene.
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Old 2013-03-25, 22:18   Link #684
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We're only talking about it because we're trying to decide if it should remain or get removed.

And, really, if it was removed, would it hurt the narrative of the story over-all?

I don't understand why people think that the stick fighting scene was good, but think that Nanoha losing her SLB scene from canon wasn't important.
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Old 2013-03-25, 22:28   Link #685
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
We're only talking about it because we're trying to decide if it should remain or get removed.
If a really short scene in a 2 and a half hour movie is truly forgettable, people will have forgotten about it even the day after they watched the movie.


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And, really, if it was removed, would it hurt the narrative of the story over-all?
There's an old adage in writing - "Show, don't tell". Showing Nanoha and Fate regaining their battle preparedness and getting stronger after losing badly to Vita and Signum has some value, imo.


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I don't understand why people think that the stick fighting scene was good, but think that Nanoha losing her SLB scene from canon wasn't important.
I never said that wasn't important.

Ok, tell you what, maybe I'll go back and rewatch certain Nanoha A's TV scenes to do a more comprehensive compare and contrast. In fairness, it has been a long time since I've watched the original Nanoha A's.

So, here's your chance - Tell me what you think I should focus on (preferably by Episode number and section).
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Old 2013-03-25, 22:32   Link #686
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post

And, really, if it was removed, would it hurt the narrative of the story over-all?
This is another major difference we have. Most anime watchers are not critics. The bare narrative of details is all that's really needed for a series like A's. I certainly don't enjoy something based on how consistent it is to the narrative. That would make for a pretty boring ride if it never once detracted from it. What mostly matters is how memorable said scenes are. You think of that scene as pointless fluff, yet why is it pointless fluff to you? I don't see how Nanoha's determinator status is vital to the narrative, either. When she more than gets the point across without them. With the stick fighting, it at least shows she isn't just some helpless loli without the help of her device and barrier jacket. I expected to see that kind of skill from Fate since she's known to be very athletic, but not from Nanoha.
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Old 2013-03-25, 22:40   Link #687
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Numbers are my favorite characters.

I still go back to re-read the Sound Stages just to revisit their scenes.


^ irl picture of me and Nanya after we bonded over our mutual affection for StrikerS. (I'm on the left)
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Old 2013-03-25, 22:47   Link #688
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I honestly saw that as just making up for the scene of Fate saving Nanoha from Vita getting edited out.
That might be true. In fact, that's really the one really cool thing she does the whole movie, really.
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Old 2013-03-26, 02:35   Link #689
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
But, kris, Fate got a ton of characterization in the 1st movie at the expense of Nanoha and Yuuno.

Did she REALLY need MORE of that?
Old post, but directed at me so.

And well, yeah why not? Think about it. Who are the main characters of the Nanoha series?

Takamachi Nanoha and Fate Testarossa.

Who is a secondary character? Yuuno Scrya. He was a main character arguably in the first season, but he's been stuck into a supporting role since. Nanoha and Fate are indisputably the main characters of the series as a whole (Subaru is arguably another MC for StrikerS, and Tohma is another MC for Force... Vivio and Einhart being MCs for ViVid).

And thinking on it, I don't see how this movie seemed to "pander" to Fate. It had all the key scenes that were already present in the original series to begin with. And aside from Nanoha blasting off a SLB despite a hand through her chest, no real scenes of note for Nanoha were removed at all.

There's also the fact this is the first movie with Fate as a proper protagonist, and in a role as a (somewhat) normal girl - she was an antagonist at the start of 1st, and only jumped into a protagonist role near the very end, and in none of that was she characterized as acting like a "normal" person. So, much like A's did, this movie sought to show Fate acting more normal, and so it would of course have a bit more focus on her then Nanoha.

We already know a lot of Nanoha from the first season/movie after all.
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Old 2013-03-26, 04:25   Link #690
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OKay, I really didn't want to do this, but I'm going to have to...

The 2nd movie suffers from the DBZ Main character syndrome.

To elaborate, think about Dragonball Z after the Freeza saga, if you weren't a Saiyan, you really didn't do much. Sure, Piccolo got a few moments after he fused with Kami, but after Cell absorbed 17, he might as well had not even shown up. And even among the Saiyans, if you weren't named Goku or Gohan, you were just there as window dressing.

It's one of the biggest complaints any fan of DBZ has, that none of the characters, other than Goku and Gohan, can DO anything other than be window dressing and show how tough the newest bad guys are.

And think about this movie, only Nanoha and Fate (main characters) really did anything other than the antagonists.

Is that what you really want? Nanoha to become DBZ when it comes to how it treats the characters?
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Old 2013-03-26, 04:49   Link #691
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Does that make Signum... Vegeta?

Also do you recall what they did to Gohan? They turned what was arguable a stronger saiyan than even goku into a freakin bookworm.
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Old 2013-03-26, 05:06   Link #692
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And he still ended up being one of the few characters that could do anything to Majin Buu during the last saga.

Hell, newest DBZ movie has a new character kicking EVERYONE'S ass, yes, that includes Gohan, Gotenks, Majin Buu... kind of sad considering how strong they were in the final DBZ Arc... And Goku has to unlock a new power just to fight the guy.

but, seriously, do you WANT the Nanoha franchise to go down the same road as DBZ for characters and write everyone not named Nanoha and Fate out to the point where you wonder why they even bother with new characters?
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Old 2013-03-26, 05:21   Link #693
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I don't get the DBZ comparison at all, frankly.

StrikerS (and the Nanoha franchise since it) represents the complete opposite direction compared to DBZ. If anything, Nanoha goes too far the other way - Expanding its major protagonist cast to the point where its borderline unmanageable, and absolutely loaded with redundancy. Nanoha's problem is the Bleach problem, not the DBZ problem.

If you want to know why characters like Chrono, Yuuno, and Alph have fallen largely (if not completely) into the background, that's much of the reason why. They're not one of the two main characters of the series, but nor are they "the shiny new toy". So inevitably they fall into the background.

That being said, I was honestly impressed with how this movie handled Alph. Alpha got more screen-time and focus here than I can remember her getting in the Nanoha A's TV anime.
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Old 2013-03-26, 06:08   Link #694
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Triple_R, think about the movie, did anyone other than Nanoha or Fate do anything in the movie for the protagonist side?
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Old 2013-03-26, 06:25   Link #695
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Doesn't "protagonist" strictly refer to the main character(s) who is(are) not an antagonist?

Anyways, there was Nachtwal. It took a group effort there.
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Old 2013-03-26, 07:01   Link #696
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I'm glad that I have no desire to be published professionally, because I really think my relationship with an editor would be an ugly one. I don't like the idea of people cutting things out of my story because "it doesn't contribute to the plot enough" or "it's extraneous" or whatever. I would find it hard not to roundhouse kick said editor and say "Motherfucker, if I wrote it down it's supposed to be there. Now put it back before I go Starlight Breaker on your ass." I'm glad to have the freedom to write just for my own personal pleasure and have every single word I wrote down preserved and untampered with.
It's what we call "kill your darlings" in the editting scene. Sometimes there's a scene a director really, really likes, but it has to be cut out for any of a large variety of reasons.

Books and film are two different things. A book has different constraints when it comes to page-counts, but a series must adhere to a set number of minutes per episodes, and even for movies reaching the three hour mark is an extraordinary rarity (cinema's don't like long movies, since that'll mean they get to show less movies in a day).

What you described is amusingly enough the average relationship between an editor and a director. Both sides will often want to strangle one another because of differing ideas. But while teh director will always hold the final say, editors are important to a director, and scenes will have to be cut one way or another. Otherwise you'd end up with four or five hour long movies. If not more. It's often a case of finding the middle ground.

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We already know a lot of Nanoha from the first season/movie after all.
Actually, the first movie cut a lot of Nanoha material out to make room for more movie-original Fate material.

Which is pretty much what we're suggesting here, only in favor of other characters. Most important among them Hayate and the Wolkenritter.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
I know, I was just kidding <3

On-topic, the Fate Nanoha training scene was actually one of my favorite bits of the movie. Very atmospheric and well-choreographed.

What if in a Director's Cut version they add an extra few seconds to that scene where

Spoiler:
.... They're nine. That wouldn't be romantic, that'd be creepy.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Isn't it obvious that Chrono is a highly unemotional kid? He's DAB's answer to a 10 year old Bruce Wayne. You don't need Bruce Wayne to go on at length over how much his parents' death affected him. It comes through almost every scene he's in, given his personality. Much the same is true of Chrono. Simply leaning what happened to Chrono's father in this movie says loads in and of itself.

"So that's why Chrono is the way he is..."
And yet, following that logic none of Fate's scenes were needed either. The book of darkness was a very important case for Chrono, as it provided closure to the death of his father. It should have been a moment of growth for him. Yet we saw none of that.

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I strongly disagree. I enjoyed it.
Enjoying a scene doesn't make it any more or less relevant. That being said, it did have a purpose, as it served to signify their recovery. Similar to how Nanoha tried, and failed, to practice magic after being drained in A's. However, the scene came completely out of nowhere, especially in light of how her family owning a dojo was shafted in the previous movie. It wasn't a teribad scene, it was just "lolwut?"

Would have used a magic exercise shot myself. Not just make Nanoha a staff fighter of Fate's level just to get a cool scene.

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OKay, I really didn't want to do this, but I'm going to have to...

The 2nd movie suffers from the DBZ Main character syndrome.

To elaborate, think about Dragonball Z after the Freeza saga, if you weren't a Saiyan, you really didn't do much. Sure, Piccolo got a few moments after he fused with Kami, but after Cell absorbed 17, he might as well had not even shown up. And even among the Saiyans, if you weren't named Goku or Gohan, you were just there as window dressing.
Bah, the series had the same with cartridges. It was either get cartridges or go home.
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Old 2013-03-26, 07:46   Link #697
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.... They're nine. That wouldn't be romantic, that'd be creepy.
Agreed. I'm glad NanoFate was handled with some degree of restraint. Even if they do have a yuri crush on each other, it should be nothing more than puppy dog-style love at their age.


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And yet, following that logic none of Fate's scenes were needed either.
You guys seem to think that anyway. So getting you to basically admit the same about Chrono is a win as far as I'm concerned.


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The book of darkness was a very important case for Chrono, as it provided closure to the death of his father.
That came across to me in this movie. It was short and subtle, but it was there.


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It should have been a moment of growth for him. Yet we saw none of that.
The growth comes with Chrono being warmer as an adult man in StrikerS than he was as a kid. This sort of character growth takes time.


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Enjoying a scene doesn't make it any more or less relevant.
Even as somebody who isn't the biggest fan of anime fluff/fanservice, you guys strike me as downright ruthless. Not every little scene in a 2 and a half-hour movie needs to push forward the main plot. Even Shakespeare's plays give you breaks from the main action. That's because Shakespeare recognized that audiences often need that beak, because otherwise they'd feel overwhelmed by constant drama and unshifting narrative focus.

I definitely wouldn't want every last scene in this movie to directly tie into the Book of Darkness. Frankly, I would have found that a bit overwhelming. It's good to be reminded that there is life in the Nanoha-verse outside of dealing with the Book of Darkness.


Quote:
Would have used a magic exercise shot myself. Not just make Nanoha a staff fighter of Fate's level just to get a cool scene.
Why shouldn't Nanoha be a staff fighter of Fate's level? The final fight between Nanoha and Fate in the original Nanoha TV series showed that Nanoha could handle staff-fighting pretty good, imo.
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Old 2013-03-26, 08:04   Link #698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Bah, the series had the same with cartridges. It was either get cartridges or go home.
Caro, Lutecia, Zafira, and Hayate say hi. Not to mention quite a few girls in Vivid.. Vivio, Rio, Corona, Miura... I could go on. Not to mention, the four forwards even with cartridges, couldn't match up to a Nanoha not using them at first.

That is the difference Nanya is pointing out between the series and movie. The series makes cartridges nice, but not totally necessary. The movie means anyone without them can go home.
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Old 2013-03-26, 08:15   Link #699
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Bah, the series had the same with cartridges. It was either get cartridges or go home.
Not what I meant, Keroko.

What I mean is, the characters got less and less important in Dragonball and Goku and Gohan had to be the heroes in both the series and the movies. (Bojack Unbound was really bad with this as Gohan ONLY could do something after going SS2 and only Trunks got a kill before that)

One of the things that I loved about the Nanoha series is that the secondary and side characters, when shown in combat, were able to hold their own and pull their own weight.

Season 1, we had Yuuno playing decoy on Arf right away, and after he went back to his human form, he was STILL able to hold his own by helping Nanoha with Jewel Seed monsters, teleporting Nanoha to help her save Fate, binding tornadoes over the ocean and helping to slow down and stop the robots Precia had.

Chrono, remember how he said "screw this" and blasted his way through Precia's defenses like wet tissue paper? Remember how Nanoha was like "woah!"

A's, we had Yuuno in the first fight holding off Vita, trying to undo the barrier they were in and even healing Nanoha. And Chrono managed to corner Shamal in canon.

Subaru vs Ginga
Teana vs Nove, Wendi, Deed
Erio and Caro vs Lutecia and her summons

in ALL of those instances, the secondary characters were holding their own and pulling their own weight while the Main Characters took care of the biggest problems.

But, in the movie, that stuff was absent and Nanoha and Fate were the only ones shown to do anything.

Does that make what Nanoha or Fate did in canon any less impressive? No! Of course not! I mean, shee, one of my favorite scenes from StrikerS was watching Blaster-3 Divine Buster punch through the Saint's Cradle and blow Quattro to hell and back.

THAT was what I was talking about.
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Old 2013-03-26, 09:10   Link #700
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You guys seem to think that anyway. So getting you to basically admit the same about Chrono is a win as far as I'm concerned.
With the exception that Chrono did not get character development in any of the movies, whereas Fate got plenty in both.

That's part of the complaint when it comes to people complaining about the Fate focus. Not because it is Fate getting development, but because it's Fate getting development by bleed-through plot of the previous movie. Case in point: There are very few people who complained about Fate developing a rivalry with Signum. Which is a rather significant growth for the previously "can barely talk to people" Fate.

That's also why the Lotus Eater Dream stands out so much. It literally throws us back to the plot of the previous season/movie, while having next to no relation with the current one. It's a floating island of character development. Important for Fate, but also only for Fate.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That came across to me in this movie. It was short and subtle, but it was there.
For Lindy, yes. Not Chrono.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The growth comes with Chrono being warmer as an adult man in StrikerS than he was as a kid. This sort of character growth takes time.
Again, same thing can be said for Fate, yet her scenes are somehow vital in A's. Why?

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Even as somebody who isn't the biggest fan of anime fluff/fanservice, you guys strike me as downright ruthless.
I'm an editor. It's my job to be ruthless in analyzing these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Not every little scene in a 2 and a half-hour movie needs to push forward the main plot. Even Shakespeare's plays give you breaks from the main action. That's because Shakespeare recognized that audiences often need that beak, because otherwise they'd feel overwhelmed by constant drama and unshifting narrative focus.
While true, the distinction needs to be made where, when and with which characters.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why shouldn't Nanoha be a staff fighter of Fate's level? The final fight between Nanoha and Fate in the original Nanoha TV series showed that Nanoha could handle staff-fighting pretty good, imo.
Please, Fate was trashing Nanoha in melee. Nanoha may have blocked the occasional blow, but she survived because of her spellcasting. We have never seen Nanoha do more than block attacks and take an extremely rare swing at enemies. Shields, binds and shooting attacks are Nanoha's area of strength.
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