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View Poll Results: Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's - Rating
Perfect 10 14 23.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 16 26.67%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 20.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 5.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 13.33%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 3.33%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 5.00%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.67%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-04-01, 14:08   Link #1081
Keroko
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Then "explain" how Nanoha thought up a clever heat dispersion system identical to the one tailor made on Fate's device and "explain" how Raising heart's second mode turns out to be extremely similar to the Bureau standard.
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Old 2013-04-01, 14:12   Link #1082
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I have no clue.

But, again, Nanoha thought up the basic form of RH in the series.

In the movie, it was pre-installed.

So, with that said...

In the series, the reason Yuuno couldn't use RH in staff mode was because he didn't think it up.

In the movie, why didn't he use it in staff mode?

That's what I want explained.

Hell, just 3 seconds, that's ALL that would be needed, just ONE line about why.

We never got that line.
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Old 2013-04-01, 14:14   Link #1083
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The poor boy was weak XD
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Old 2013-04-01, 14:16   Link #1084
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
The poor boy was weak XD
A line of "Such power, no wonder she can use Raising Heart like that then."

Never there.

A line of "She's more compatible with Raising Heart than I am."

Never there.

A line of "I found Raising Heart on the same dig that I found the Jewel Seeds and I could barely use it."

Never there.

ANY of those three lines, or a variation of them, would have filled the plot hole instantly.
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Old 2013-04-01, 14:51   Link #1085
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Indirectly mentioned when she got it XD (it did say that she has sufficient power levels [and Yuuno had insufficient power levels])
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Last edited by bhl88; 2013-04-01 at 15:09.
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Old 2013-04-01, 15:08   Link #1086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Again, I can shrug that off since Nanoha thought them up easier than shrugging off the fact that if, they're pre-installed, why didn't Yuuno use them?

As the Nostalgia Critic says...

"Explain, Movie, EXPLAIN!"
I think RH just didn't want him for a master. He couldn't use her the way she was intended.

Nanoha was a perfect fit. A demon-cannon girl for a demon-cannon staff.
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Old 2013-04-01, 15:10   Link #1087
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I think RH just didn't want him for a master. He couldn't use her the way she was intended.

Nanoha was a perfect fit. A demon-cannon girl for a demon-cannon staff.
I wonder if 10:13 said something about Nanoha's power levels? Yuuno did say that his was insufficient to use RH.
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Old 2013-04-01, 15:11   Link #1088
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
The poor boy was weak XD
Caging Circle and three-on-one damage containment against the young aces suggests otherwise.
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Old 2013-04-01, 15:13   Link #1089
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Caging Circle and three-on-one damage containment against the young aces suggests otherwise.
If Nanoha's a wizard, Yuuno's an acolyte/priest/full support mage [Scholar/Professor] with chain and shields
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Old 2013-04-01, 15:37   Link #1090
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Due to the anime con I was at all weekend, I couldn't get into super long posts, and TR knew it would take me until this week to get to it, so here it is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sure, I acknowledge that. And I'm not panicking. I'm genuinely mind-boggled. Surely you must see how bizarre it is to leave in all the build-up to Nanoha and Fate's reunion, and even Chrono's conversation comments pertaining to it, but not the actual reunion itself... unless you do change the reunion to be as it was in the A's TV show, as I felt my previous argument to you was clear.

If your perspective is "The reunion should have been handled like it was in the A's TV show", then that calls for a major re-working of the entire first half of the movie narrative. Simply slicing and dicing 40 seconds here, and a couple minutes there, is no longer enough to be the focal point of discussion. You basically have to go right back to the drawing board for the first half of the narrative.

In which case, it would be more productive if you were to lay out a sequence of plot points, how long each would be, and what you'd include in each of them, until you reach a point where you could say "From this point onward, I stick with what the movie showed". I will admit this would be a lot of work, so I can understand it, and would not fault you over, opting not to follow up on this point.
My thoughts are as follows:
Fate and Arf are on their way to Earth, via a series of teleport jumps.
Lindy, Chrono, and Amy will follow up later on the Arthra, as Lindy plans to get a house on Earth so that Fate would have a home near Nanoha (and to take a break to bond with her new daughter). Amy and Chrono have their modified movie conversation here.
Fate arrives, but senses the barrier up, and her and Arf go charging in.
They double-team Vita (who is draining Nanoha at the moment) and smack her away, binding her in the rubble of a building
They only exchange a few words before Signum and Zafira attack
They fight for a bit, but Shamal shows up and binds Arf, allowing Zafira to knock her out, as per the movie.
Vita gets free, and she teams up with Signum to put Fate down and start to drain her
Arthra shows up, they detect the barrier, and Chrono and Lindy teleport down and get the drop on the pair, knocking them away from Fate (Chrono and Lindy were the only two with power enough to teleport into the barrier; a few Enforcers are working on it from outside). They get a short combat scene, no longer than 30 seconds combined... but also long enough that Lindy recognizes the Wolks. Chrono doesn't really (he was too young then), but does see Shamal fly away with the book.
The Wolks realize they'll soon be outnumbered once the barrier goes down, and retreat
Some short scenes showing Lindy distraught at failing to protect her new daughter, and Fate distraught at failing to protect Nanoha

Continue on as normal from this point. But I'd like scenes showing Chrono growing a bit obsessed about finding the book and destroying it (no Graham to teach him that "calmness is your ally"). Perhaps Lindy taking note, but attempts to caution him are unheeded. Chrono simply says he is doing this job as an agent of the Bureau. Quick flash of Amy showing worry on her face, perhaps.

Quote:
There is a point Keroko made that I agree with, after giving it more thought. Paraphrasing, that point is "Editing is about seconds, not minutes." How much can you trim a scene while still preserving it enough to satisfy the plot and/or please the fans?
Answer: When you realize that you can please the fans with shortened scenes that do not impact the overall plot of the movie.

You're expecting that, somehow, fans will think, "Hey, that scene should have been longer! BOOOO! BAD MOVIE!" The human mind doesn't work that way. Most people don't miss what they never had. If we only had shortened Fate scenes, I bet you, and everyone else, would never have noticed. Your thoughts would be as they are now: that Fate got enough in your mind. Hell, if Chrono and Lindy had gotten at least a little actual character development(but not as much as I am suggesting), I probably wouldn't be having this conversation with you at all. Maybe a little grumbling, but enough to rate this movie at least an 8. Then again, I think critically while most people don't and are thus satisfied with the shiny. It is why Micheal Bay keeps making movies, heh. But I'd rather Nanoha not be a Bay flick.

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Well, understand then that this is probably an area of lasting disagreement between us. Also understand that there's plenty of anime fans in general that care minimally about the plot. There's far, far more anime shows that are character-driven than plot-driven, and I think that reflects the taste preferences of anime fans in general. At least those living in Japan.

Ultimately, even the extended audience for the Nanoha movie are going to be thoroughly dominated by anime fans. And, like it or not, modern anime fans tend to go more for simplified plots with lots of great/wonderful character moments than a masterpiece plot that is more about story than characters.
Do you like fluff fics? Have you read a bunch of the NanoFate fluff fics on ff.net or something? Can you go through fic after fic of sweet, fluffy NanoFate fics with little to no plot?

I won't deny that a great many shippers love them. It's like crack. There are a few of us who prefer real red meat in our stories, though. Mostly because all those NanoFate fics are pretty much exactly alike, focusing on very few issues and completely neglecting other aspects of the characters they like. I wrote a fic called "Whipped" which was NanoFate, as a way to address the trauma Fate must be carrying from the physical abuse. Imagine my surprise when I learn that no one else had attempted to even address this issue in a fic.... ever.

What does that tell you? As a former shipper myself, I understand. My focus on a particular relationship (Ranma/Akane) caused me to lose focus on the larger plot, and I'm embarrassed to say I tended to upvote fics with that pairing, and downvote fics with better writing and plot just because it wasn't Ranma/Akane. So, you'll have to forgive me, and it may be years before you look back and see (I know, I've been there), but too much focus on something like NanoFate, or a particular character like Fate, really does warp your viewpoint. It's really hard to see now, I know. If someone had told me all of this back when I was in the Ranma 1/2 fandom, I would have reacted angrily and wouldn't have understood. I cringe at how I acted back then.

This was probably a long-winded way of saying: you can't be objective, if you heavily favor any particular relationship and character to the degree I've seen from a few. In order to be truly objective, you have to look at each character equally, and determine their proper development in the scope with the movie. A truly objective person will look at a movie like The Last Airbender, and tell you exactly why it is bad, even though it technically followed the really good series. And if someone told you, "No way, man! The Last Airbender movie was AWESOME! Did you see the special effects and that fight? And it developed my favorite character! So I don't get why you think the movie is so bad."

Quote:
In some ways, this is an uncomfortable place for me to be arguing from, as I typically don't think that plots get enough credit/focus in modern anime. Usually, I'm on your side of the plot/'pandering to fans' argument. Because the balance in many anime shows is heavily skewed to the 'pandering' side.
And right there, is why you know it is bad. Because deep down, you know pandering is ultimately bad for any show or series. It's short term-thinking, at the cost of long-term viability. This series will not survive on NanoFate fans alone. This is why we no longer have an anime series, and instead have once a month manga releases.

Quote:
Arguing that Nanoha and Fate are not vital to the plot when they are the main protagonists of the plot strikes me as truly bizarre. I have to be frank there.

Imagine the following...

World's Finest: Joker's Winning Hand
My answer - Yes, definitely. And so are Fate and Nanoha vital to this movie's plot.
Haven't seen that particular movie so I can't comment too much, but it's overall a bad analogy because the expanded nature of the DC universe means they can address the feelings of their characters in other comics, series, or movies. Compared to DC, or even just Batman, the Nanoha-verse is fairly limited in screentime. Nanoha and Fate are vital only as heroes to help resolve the plot, in the same way that Batman is only vital in that he takes down the bad guy... even if he gets no character development during the series or movie. In fact, in most Batman movies, Batman himself can easily get by with no character development. He can be the same at the end, as he was at the beginning. We only watch to see *how* he takes down the bad guy... not how he changes because of it. And we don't tune in to a Batman movie, to watch Robin day dream and angst about family issues, when the movie he's in has nothing to do with those issues. If a Batman movie was redone to have Robin take more of the glory from Batman, with no reason why, how badly do you think the fans would grumble at that?

Quote:
It's plot relevant in a way that's easily "told" though. It's not something that really needs to be "showed". It's one of those cases where "Show, don't Tell" doesn't really apply. It's fine to show it, of course, but Lindy just saying "We moved into town yesterday" is fine. We don't need to actually see the movers with the mattresses.
I'd be up for shortening it and modifying it. I only listed scenes I would actually cut, with the expectation that modification of remaining scenes was possible. In fact, as per my notes above, I probably would have stuck in a small scene with Lindy, Amy, and Chrono talking, with a short mention of how Lindy is moving into a place near Nanoha. Perhaps in that Amy/Chrono scene.

Quote:
I was saying that if someone wanted to destroy NanoFate, you're suggested edits (left without something to make up for them) would be a good way to go about it.
Heh, gotta tell ya dude, this is honestly overreacting. True, anyone set out to destroy NanoFate would target those scenes... but there is so much more that they would have to target to destroy NanoFate. If you set up one of those electric fly zappers, and someone said to you, "If someone was gonna destroy the entire fly population, that is how they would go about it" you'd probably look at them funny. Because you know very well that, while you'd probably kill some flies, you'd hardly make a dent in the overall population.

Quote:
I still think there's a risk that people forget the Nanoha/Suzuka connection if Suzuka's first scene in the movie does not re-establish it visually. I mean, hardcore fans won't forget exactly who Suzuka is, but more casual fans might.
We might consider a short scene, then, like in A's, where Suzuka and Arisa are talking on the phone about Fate coming, and how happy Nanoha must be. Stick it fairly close to the Vita scene. Or, alternatively, have Arisa and Suzuka visit Nanoha and Fate at the new Harleown place, like they did in A's, at least long enough to get introduced, and as they drag off someplace to have fun, the scene fades. In fact, that latter scene would work better, because it was add to Fate's development of getting to know Arisa and Suzuka and becoming friends with them as well. Instead of Arisa and Suzuka kinda remaining just Nanoha's friends, outside of Fate's circle.

Quote:
People can legitimately disagree on what's "good for the series", you know.
There are two methods to decide what is "good."

#1. A certain hardcore segment of the fanatic fanbase likes it (ie, Batman/Catwoman scenes to focus on their relationship, while ignoring development of a lot of the other characters)

#2. And what is good on a more objective level based on standard criteria. (Is the plot consistent? Are there plotholes? Do characters get developed as the plot would warrant, or are they ignored?)

And I'll grant that there are a large number of movies that critics tend to pan for bad plot or what have you, but still make money because a large portion of the populace eats it up, ie, the Bay Transformer movies. Huge plot holes, inconsistencies, ignoring the development of most of the frickin' bots themselves... and yet people will tell that the movies are good. If you are truly objective, you can go, "Yeah, I understand the plot suffered and the movie had technical issues, even though I personally liked it."

Quote:
Even on this thread, where critics abound, I don't see many people clamoring for Chrono/Fate.
Because most of them gave up and left. They realized they were never going to get development of certain aspects... or rather, that the only real development would be between two characters. The Nanoha fandom is actually quite small in the western world. Why?

Quote:
But I'm going to make a confession here - Just as I think you find vague lesbianism between two nine-year old girls creepy, I worry about the potential for Chrono/Fate to be portrayed in accordance with the modern anime craze of "cute younger sister that may or may not have sexual longing for her older brother". Seriously, given anime's extreme difficulty in portraying a sibling relationship in the light of platonic, familial love, I do worry about what might come of greater Chrono/Fate focus.

There's enough brother-sister combos that are portrayed with a lot of sexual tension. I don't necessarily want another one.
Answer: Because people get turned off by the pedo things. Yes, normal people do find it creepy. I've tried to show Nanoha to more normal anime watchers(dear god, I can't show Nanoha to non-anime people at all!), and their two main complaints are the pedo transformation scenes, and all the lesbian subtext between two nine year olds. Sure, once they're older, knock yourself out. I wouldn't care too much at this point, if Nanoha and Fate got married. I am one of the few remaining people who just wants development from other characters, instead of it being the Nanoha/Fate show every damn time.

And in the normal world, they wouldn't find touching brother/sister scenes (like a sister embracing a brother to comfort him after he breaks down from an internal trauma) to be sexualized in any way. This is purely an anime thing, and in particular, with some more recent anime and their fans. I don't know if you've seen Kokoro Connect, but most people find the brother/sister interaction there cute... despite the filter that some anime fans might put over their eyes to see it purely in romantic/sexual terms.

In short, in the normal world, vastly more people see "wrong" when they see two 9-year-olds salted with liberal subtext, then they do about a brother and sister. On a personal note, I've started to become a bit disgusted with anime fans in particular, over some of their more queer habits and likes, like panty shots. Yes, anime is getting a bit bigger in some respects, but there are very valid reasons why it won't get mainstream approval. And I think many anime fans get so far into their fetish, that they begin to lose sight of what society at large finds okay. And sexual tension between two 9-year-olds is definitely not okay, according to society.

Heh, I was just at Sakura con this weekend, and I reminded myself why I avoided the booths, where they were selling things. Because I walked down and found booths with huge posters and pillow covers with naked anime girls (although with post-it notes hiding important bits). I'm like... seriously, dude? And we want the world to respect us? But I digress, and have wandered off into one of my peeves. Long story short (too late, I know): regardless of what you or I think, the western world has already judged certain things to be taboo. And while I'm usually up for taboo-busting, I gotta say, I'm not there yet with regards to 9-year-old girls. If it is your thing, sure, knock yourself out. Just don't try to convince yourself that it is normal or accepted in the world at large. NAMBLA loves to croon about how the world rejects their viewpoint, too.

Quote:
Perhaps this is one area where we differ - I think that the continuation/development of something is just as important as the origin/beginnings of something. This is why I see legitimacy in, and arguably even need, for more NanoFate development in this movie. To show that what began is genuinely continuing.
That's what side materials are for(or perhaps a director's cut where they add in all the cut scenes for the DVD/BD release): to cover such aspects you had to cut in order to make a watchable movie in the limited time span of a theater showing.

Last edited by Kaijo; 2013-04-01 at 15:48.
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Old 2013-04-01, 15:44   Link #1091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
I think RH just didn't want him for a master. He couldn't use her the way she was intended.

Nanoha was a perfect fit. A demon-cannon girl for a demon-cannon staff.
Again, just one line is all that's needed for that to work.

Quote:
And right there, is why you know it is bad. Because deep down, you know pandering is ultimately bad for any show or series. It's short term-thinking, at the cost of long-term viability. This series will not survive on NanoFate fans alone. This is why we no longer have an anime series, and instead have once a month manga releases.
THIS is what I've been TRYING to say, but I could never get the words right!

When I say I want this series to be successful, I mean it, I want it to be successful by having more anime seasons, more fans coming in and discussing, more people enjoying the series.

But the more pandering that goes on, the less successful the series becomes.
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Old 2013-04-01, 15:47   Link #1092
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The pillows too, Kaijo, don't forget the infamous pillows.
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Old 2013-04-01, 15:52   Link #1093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
The pillows too, Kaijo, don't forget the infamous pillows.
Oh yes, I saw plenty of pillows. In fact, shortly after I entered the selling area, literally 12 feet from the door, the first booth had huge dakimura pillow case covers of naked anime girls hanging on the wall behind the counter, with said post-it notes covering up their bits (with words on them saying stuff like "giggity!" And other booths throughout the area were selling hentai doujins or DVDs (with small stickers covering any exposed bits on the covers).

Goddammit people. I want to be able to take normal people to a con someday.
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Old 2013-04-01, 15:52   Link #1094
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The only thing left are the fanfics and the doujinshi.

And there's supposed to be ones that are tame...
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Old 2013-04-01, 16:02   Link #1095
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Never been to an anime convention so I've no idea how they are (though in my country, it'll be a miracle if they could put up anything that's remotely close to 18+; government's crazy enough to censor kiss scenes in movies after all >_>), but from what you've said, I'm gonna make damn sure to stay a safe distance from the booths and stick strictly to window shopping only lol...
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Old 2013-04-01, 17:28   Link #1096
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
I have no clue.

But, again, Nanoha thought up the basic form of RH in the series.
Actually, due to the aforementioned plotholes, "The form was already there and Raising Heart beamed the image into Nanoha" has been a fan theory since this forum was opened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
In the series, the reason Yuuno couldn't use RH in staff mode was because he didn't think it up.
Speculation. And one which shows us another plothole. He knew how, why didn't he?

I agree that some explanation was needed, but this is hardly a point where the movie alone fails in.
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Old 2013-04-01, 17:41   Link #1097
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When you watch the movie and wait for an explanation that never comes, it kind of does fail on that point.
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Old 2013-04-01, 17:51   Link #1098
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post


And right there, is why you know it is bad. Because deep down, you know pandering is ultimately bad for any show or series. It's short term-thinking, at the cost of long-term viability. This series will not survive on NanoFate fans alone. This is why we no longer have an anime series, and instead have once a month manga releases.


I think at this point, that's not really truthful. The Nanoha franchise has already lasted longer than almost anything. There is Gundam, and a few other things, but that's all. Nevertheless, we're wayyyyy passed the short term. We don't have an anime series, because the movies are more profitable than an anime series.

Perhaps not if you merely factored in dvd and BD sales, but you can't take a series to the theaters for several long months, and sell the abundant amount of goods there in the process.
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Old 2013-04-01, 18:02   Link #1099
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Quote:
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I think at this point, that's not really truthful. The Nanoha franchise has already lasted longer than almost anything. There is Gundam, and some other stuff. We don't have an anime series, because the movies are more profitable than an anime series.

Perhaps not if you merely factored in dvd and BD sales, but you can't take a series to the theaters for several long months, and sell the abundant amount of goods there in the process.
Off topic, so moved response to the Franchise thread.
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Old 2013-04-01, 18:27   Link #1100
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Again, just one line is all that's needed for that to work.
Oh, not contesting that in the slightest! They should have spared at least a line for it.
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