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Old 2012-12-14, 18:22   Link #361
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
The problem is: we cannot stop them until it is too late.

So, I ask: What is the solution to this?
Perhaps my view on this is a bit cynical, but outside of the human race achieving enlightenment and/or ascending to a higher plane of existence? probably none.

man have killed one another senselessly since the dawn of of the race. At first it's with stones, then swords, now it's with firearms, and eventually it'll be something else that's more effective.

You can't regulate the sadistic or the crazy. Even if you magically zaps away every single firearm tomorrow, those who are committed to carrying out these acts will continue to do so, they'll simply move to other means (some which are even more effective).

Also, before someone tries to paint me as advocating for a free-for-all policy towards gun control (which inevitably will happen), that's not what I'm for at all. But understand that while firearm is the tool of choice for the perpetrator of these incidents, it is not the root cause of these incidents, nor will the lack of such prevent future incidents from occurring.

Quote:
I've also thought about a system of Gun Insurance and Licensing. Want to own a gun? Want to maintain the status quo? Pay for it (in terms of liabilities and damages)! We as a society pays for each of these incidents in the form of blood. Individually, gun owners are not responsible; but they are responsible for maintaining the politics that allows these incidents to occur.
That's a dangerous road you're going down. You're levying financial penalties against a specific group of people not for any wrongdoings, but rather for their political/personal opinions. If you don't see how that's a problem....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
In fact it's quite the opposite as evident in the link Kyuu posted earlier; guns possession is on the decline.
Indeed there has been a decline, though I'm not sure what is the point you're trying to make?
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:25   Link #362
GoddyofAus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Perhaps my view on this is a bit cynical, but outside of the human race achieving enlightenment and/or ascending to a higher plane of existence? probably none.

man have killed one another senselessly since the dawn of of the race. At first it's with stones, then swords, now it's with firearms, and eventually it'll be something else that's more effective.

You can't regulate the sadistic or the crazy. Even if you magically zaps away every single firearm tomorrow, those who are committed to carrying out these acts will continue to do so, they'll simply move to other means (some which are even more effective).

Also, before someone tries to paint me as advocating for a free-for-all policy towards gun control (which inevitably will happen), that's not what I'm for at all. But understand that while firearm is the tool of choice for the perpetrator of these incidents, it is not the root cause of these incidents, nor will the lack of such prevent future incidents from occurring.



That's a dangerous road you're going down. You're levying financial penalties against a specific group of people not for any wrongdoings, but rather for their political/personal opinions. If you don't see how that's a problem....
So your position is don't do anything, because the human race is fucked up....That sounds oddly familiar.
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:33   Link #363
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoddyofAus View Post
So your position is don't do anything, because the human race is fucked up....That sounds oddly familiar.
here, let me bold it for you:

"Also, before someone tries to paint me as advocating for a free-for-all policy towards gun control (which inevitably will happen), that's not what I'm for at all."

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-12-14 at 20:52. Reason: there is a limit to sarcasm.
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Old 2012-12-14, 18:54   Link #364
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Perhaps my view on this is a bit cynical, but outside of the human race achieving enlightenment and/or ascending to a higher plane of existence? probably none.

...

You can't regulate the sadistic or the crazy. Even if you magically zaps away every single firearm tomorrow, those who are committed to carrying out these acts will continue to do so, they'll simply move to other means (some which are even more effective).

Also, before someone tries to paint me as advocating for a free-for-all policy towards gun control (which inevitably will happen), that's not what I'm for at all. But understand that while firearm is the tool of choice for the perpetrator of these incidents, it is not the root cause of these incidents, nor will the lack of such prevent future incidents from occurring.
And not a single solution out of you. In addition, for every "suggestion" I come up with - you find some kind of excuse to counter them.

You could have at least said "teachers with gun training". And just to let you know, I have a career change decision right in my face -- to become a teacher myself. If I have to learn how to use a gun, then so be it; that's presuming I ever get a job teaching.

Of course, you are a regular citizen like me. Neither of us have any power towards policy-making. Regardless, I wanted any kind of thought towards any kind of idea favoring the benefit of society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
man have killed one another senselessly since the dawn of of the race. At first it's with stones, then swords, now it's with firearms, and eventually it'll be something else that's more effective.
Yea, I can't wait for Beam Weaponry.
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:06   Link #365
Ithekro
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Mmmm beam weapons....


A question would be, why wasn't this a serious problem earlier? What changed that has made this a serious issues and problem (gun violence in schools and such...not general thief crimes or mob violence)? Something changed, but what, why, and can it be corrected?
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:15   Link #366
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Mmmm beam weapons....

A question would be, why wasn't this a serious problem earlier? What changed that has made this a serious issues and problem (gun violence in schools and such...not general thief crimes or mob violence)?
I'd like to see a graph on NRA assets during the past 30 years.

But yea, that's a freakin' good question. There had been shootings before, like that famous one at a Texas university. Y'know, that sniper up in the bell tower. And there had been school rampages around 1910 or so.

But now, it's like an epidemic -- where these incidents are happening all too often. Aurora, Colorado was just last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Something changed, but what, why, and can it be corrected?
And my participation in this discussion particularly aims for answers to these questions. I don't give two s***s about the two sides of this argument. All I want is for these kinds of incidents to end.

===

Speaking of incidents -- y'know -- before 9/11 -- airline incidents have been relatively common in America. Major airline crashes still happen across the globe, but America hasn't had one since American Airlines 587. This is due to safety standards imposed by our government -- via the FAA. The politics simply made these kinds of incidents absolutely unacceptable. The airline industry simply has the infrastructure and the regulations in place to make sure flights are safe. Knock on wood, but it's been 11 years with a very stellar track record.

The same sentiment is not applied to these mass shootings, where one after another, they get swept under the rug. Someday, one American shooting may top 50 people. Will it take that much?
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:15   Link #367
kyp275
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And here I thought there was at least someone who' can talk about the issue without getting hostile, apparently I presumed too much

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
And not a single solution out of you. In addition, for every "suggestion" I come up with - you find some kind of excuse to counter them.
Well geez, I wasn't aware I had a quota to meet, I also didn't know that I must meet said quota before I can point out flaw in other people's suggestions, and I certainly didn't know that doing so constitutes making "excuses"

There isn't any single solution that can solve these problems. Hell, it's not even a singular problem. Like I said earlier, it's not just about guns, it's also about culture, social-economy, healthcare, etc. You can't relegate all mass shootings to one single bin and ask how do we deal with it, they're symptoms of a combinations of different issues, which all needs to be addressed.

There needs to be better mental healthcare infrastructure in the US, which has been gutted in recent decades, parents needs to do better job with parenting, we need less celebration of violence in our culture, there needs to be an improvement in the social-economic pit that has swallowed the poor, better enforcement of gun laws and closing of loopholes, etc.

Lumping it all together and compress it to lolguns isn't going to solve anything.
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:25   Link #368
flying ^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post

@ the blog entry... how can you #8 & #9 and still have #3 as an argument?

... as for Point #8 ? GONE!
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:33   Link #369
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I find it hard to even express how I feel about what happened to these kids.

The 'blame the guy, not the gun.' talk has got to end: A gun is a tool to kill, nothing more. It is morally questionable for them to be so widely accessible and its wide access is only self-promoting because you need 'to defend yourself' from these kinds of events.

It's tragic to have to read this coming from one of the leading nations of the world. A 3rd world event that should have no place in America. And yet, here we are. Proud?

*Insert national anthem*
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:34   Link #370
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
You can't relegate all mass shootings to one single bin and ask how do we deal with it, they're symptoms of a combinations of different issues, which all needs to be addressed.
Every single societal problem has political solutions that can be implemented, presuming there exists a political will to do so.

If you disagree, show me a no-solution problem -- aside from a global catastrophe . Actually, even these can be solved politically by being prepared for them; however, we're not advanced enough for those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
There isn't any single solution that can solve these problems. Hell, it's not even a singular problem. Like I said earlier, it's not just about guns, it's also about culture, social-economy, healthcare, etc.
Even if you can say that it's not just about guns (in a way that i can say that it's not just about video games), guns ARE involved. That's a FACT that neither YOU nor I can ignore. Even if guns are removed out of the equation, it'll still boil down to knives; but the weapon change results in a decrease in the severity of an incident.

And yes, it is true about all these general abstract aspects contribute to the problem. But attacking the problem in that direction is not the first step. In fact, things like cultural change acts slow for a reason -- because it takes time to propagate these kinds of changes.

After all, consider how long it took for Civil Rights to happen -- 100 years after a Civil War, and even then... the cultural effects of the Civil War and the Civil Rights movement can still be felt today. In fact, culturally, race has and will always be an issue.

Well, with regards to guns and every other issue, the first step has to be political, buddy. And this is why I am demanding for some kind of quota on solutions. Politics is everything. Everything else you listed (culture, social-economic, healthcare, etc.) will follow suit.

===

And anyways, I need a break.
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:42   Link #371
Mentar
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Unfortunately, I don't see a chance for any improvement in the US. I'm not generally so pessimistic, but sorry guys, you are f*cked.

Of course there would be good reason to do something. Of course there's a clear correlation between the ease of availability of firearms and deaths caused by them. You have to be a nutcase to argue otherwise, even though lord knows there are enough whackjobs who try.

The problem is something else: The soul of America is permeated by guns and violence in the name of "freedom". The very notion of trying to get someone to give up his firearms causes an allergic reaction in around half of the population, as if they'd have to accept voluntary slavery or something. And unless there is a clear consensus of the vast marority of the population that firearms have to be at least severely restricted, there is no hope trying to get them out of your lives.

Where would I start to try to at least REDUCE the problems?

1) Make the owner of the gun co-responsible for what happened with it. The only way I see how to get people to make sure that their weapons are LOCKED AWAY.

2) Force firearms registration. If someone is found in possession of a gun that he isn't registered for, immediately confiscate it and fine him to kingdom come.

3) Raid locations which are known to house people of shady background in possession of firearms. Pay bounties for whistleblowers whose tips lead to confiscation of weapons (taken partially out of the fines for illegal possession).

This way, the gun nutcases can still have their firearms, but they need to carefully lock them away. And this way, there's hope that the sheer amount of weapons drops a bit.

A long shot, I know. But for more, America simply isn't civil and peaceful enough. Sorry.
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:51   Link #372
flying ^
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To those looking for end-all solution (to school shootings) that's effective, immediate while preserving the right to arms... it's all perfectly laid out here!


Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post

Israel had this kind of problem once.

Documentary recalls the horrors of Ma’alot school massacre
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011...remieres-may-9

Israel's solution to this type of problem was simple, quick, and has worked ever since.



in other news:

around ~ 72 hrs ago in the VII Circuit Court of Appeals...


Gun Rights Advocates Win a MAJOR Case for Second Amendment
and Concealed Carry (CCW) Rights in Illinois: Legalized Concealed
Carry in Chicago, and Eventually Nationwide?
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:53   Link #373
Traece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
I find it hard to even express how I feel about what happened to these kids.

The 'blame the guy, not the gun.' talk has got to end: A gun is a tool to kill, nothing more.
Restricting the availability of weapons changes nothing. Violent crimes have and always will happen regardless of whether you can access a gun or not. This same event paralleled a man with a knife in China within hours.

People are quick to blame objects as if they somehow perpetrated these tragedies. That blame comes from unethical media and its perversion of events that are just news to a lot of them. What we don't need is weapon control. We need people to be able to get mental assistance at little to no cost. There are far too many people with situations that tend to create dysfunction and far too few reasons for them to see someone who can help them.
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Old 2012-12-14, 19:54   Link #374
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
The 'blame the guy, not the gun.' talk has got to end
Because 'blame the gun, not the guy' make so much more sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Every single societal problem has political solutions that can be implemented, presuming there exists a political will to do so.
It's not a "single" societal problem, nor are all problems in the world solvable, as long as humans are involved, and in some cases, wishes to remain human. These issues are all inter-related, and every solution is going to have ripple effects down the line. It's not so much solving the issue, but rather balancing them.

Quote:
Even if you can say that it's not just about guns (in a way that i can say that it's not just about video games), guns ARE involved. That's a FACT that neither YOU nor I can ignore.
Not quite, your video game example was pretty terrible, and rests on little more than the correlation = causation trope. People who would go out and kill others because they played a round of CoD is already screwed up in the head. Even if you ban all video games, they can still be "triggered" by violent movies, tv, musics, or just by thinking they don't like how someone else looked at them.

Quote:
And yes, it is true about all these general abstract aspects contribute to the problem. But attacking the problem in that direction is not the first step.
Too bad it's the only way to attack the problem, anything else is little more than mere band-aid.

Quote:
After all, consider how long it took for Civil Rights to happen -- 100 years after a Civil War, and even then... the cultural effects of the Civil War and the Civil Rights movement can still be felt today. In fact, culturally, race has and will always be an issue.
I thought all problems have a solution?

Quote:
Well, with regards to guns and every other issue, the first step has to be political, buddy. And this is why I am demanding for some kind of quota on solutions. Politics is everything. Everything else you listed (culture, social-economic, healthcare, etc.) will follow suit.
I would argue that social-economic/healthcare changes are political. Going after guns only is akin to going after the drugs in the war on drugs, look how effective that one has been, nevermind all the collateral damage that has come from it.
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:02   Link #375
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traece View Post
Restricting the availability of weapons changes nothing.
Actually it does. An army of knife vs an army of guns, which is more likely to win ? Just look at The Last Samurai.
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:03   Link #376
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Quote:
Restricting the availability of weapons changes nothing. Violent crimes have and always will happen regardless of whether you can access a gun or not. This same event paralleled a man with a knife in China within hours.
22 injuries, no reported deaths. These kids will have a chance at life. The ones in Connecticut? Not so much.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-12-14 at 20:37. Reason: going too far on the personal tangeant
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:05   Link #377
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
A question would be, why wasn't this a serious problem earlier? What changed that has made this a serious issues and problem (gun violence in schools and such...not general thief crimes or mob violence)? Something changed, but what, why, and can it be corrected?
This is a really fascinating question. My guess is that it's multifactorial. Here are some thoughts:

1) Modern news. Were these events really less frequent in the past? Back then people focused on local news, and only big national events trickled down to local news outlets. Thanks in part to the internet, everything is at the national level now.

Aside from potentially skewing people's perceptions, news is almost always about negative events, and shifting from local to national (or world) news means that there is truly no end to the terrible things you can read and hear about. This likely has a negative effect on people's outlooks and world views. How this influences society can't be known, but I don't imagine that there's anything good in it. (Any news hounds here? Have you ever forced yourself to stop checking the news and maintained that for at least a week? Didn't you feel a lot better?)

Lastly, there's always the fear of copycat crimes. The worst crimes tend to make it to the most news outlets and stick around for the longest, thus gaining maximum exposure. Does this plant a seed in some people's minds? I think that this aspect is usually overstated, but we can't say that it's meaningless.

2) Population growth. Compared to the past, we have more people and the population density in some areas has gone up. Aside from creating increased competition amongst members of society (and with it, stress), every person harbors the potential to do something wonderful or something terrible. Genetics and environment are dice rolls as to how a person will turn out. With more people around, you have to figure that you'll roll more "terrible" combinations. This also feeds back into the point about the media.

3) The most important (and unfortunate) point: disintegration of community within society. While mental illnesses are met with fear and misunderstanding across nearly all cultures, and while every culture has loners, some culture studies indicate that other cultures rally around members in distress. Understandably, this provides a stabilizing effect. In America (and perhaps western cultures as a whole), this is quickly being lost.

The first two reasons contribute to this. The constant bad-news cycle makes people fearful, and they stop trusting one another. (Listen to some older folks lamenting about how they used to be able to run around their neighborhood freely, but kids today can't because it's too dangerous. It didn't become more dangerous, it's just that kidnappings in some small town on the East Coast are now immediately relayed to parents in small towns on the West Coast as well, and vice versa.) Lack of trust and increased fear of one another causes people to keep to themselves. This is one aspect of isolation.

The increased population and the increased competition within society places more strains on members of society. How many people place their aging parents in nursing homes because they don't have the time or can't otherwise afford to take them in? How many parents spend sufficient time parenting, instead of having baby-sitters or the television raise their children? Further, how many people really become members of the community that they reside in? The modern "global economy" often demands that people move around - these are people who can't contribute to the stability and trust of a community.

I'm sure there's a lot more that could be said, but those are the three points that come to mind for now. Unfortunately, there's no policy change that can easily fix any of them. How do you get people to stop being so afraid and to start trusting each other again?
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:07   Link #378
Traece
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Actually it does. An army of knife vs an army of guns, which is more likely to win ?
Depends on the army. The knife-wielding army would be in a bad spot until the army of gun-wielders runs out of ammo, and then they're really screwed.

What are the weather conditions? Will the gun army encounter jamming conditions? Will the knife-wielders have trouble running?

How good is the marksmanship of the gun-wielding army? Do they even have training in guns at all including maintenance of their firearms? Just because they can shoot bullets it doesn't mean they'll hit their targets. Believe it or not, people are really good at missing the broad side of a barn. Also, most bullets fired in war don't actually hit a target much like Stormtroopers in StarWars. There's a long bit of psychology behind this.

If you're going to try and participate in a debate thread, please have something to contribute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
22 injuries, no reported deaths. These kids will have a chance at life. The ones in Connecticut? Not so much.
Notice where it says "civil" in the thread title.

This is true. There's obviously a lack of loss of life in the knife incident as opposed to the incident with the gun. That's not necessarily as a result of the weapons themselves however. I'm not well-versed enough on these situations to compare them factually.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-12-14 at 20:37. Reason: quoted part edited
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:07   Link #379
kyp275
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Ah, the sweet smell of people proposing laws without thinking of their legal ramifications...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
1) Make the owner of the gun co-responsible for what happened with it. The only way I see how to get people to make sure that their weapons are LOCKED AWAY.
And what happens when their guns are locked away but is still stolen anyway? What if their key was lost or stolen?

Moreover, on what ground can you even begin to put criminal responsibility on owner who themselves have done nothing wrong? Should car owners be responsible for injuries and fatalities caused by their car if it was stolen or when they let someone else borrow it?

Quote:
2) Force firearms registration. If someone is found in possession of a gun that he isn't registered for, immediately confiscate it and fine him to kingdom come.
I have no issue with registration in general, though many firearms are already registered to day (depending on type/state), and that certainly hasn't done much of anything.

Quote:
3) Raid locations which are known to house people of shady background in possession of firearms. Pay bounties for whistleblowers whose tips lead to confiscation of weapons (taken partially out of the fines for illegal possession).
I guess we didn't want the 4th Amendment anyway, screw probable cause!

Quote:
A long shot, I know. But for more, America simply isn't civil and peaceful enough. Sorry.
Ah yes, more America bashing, I can make plenty of jokes and bash Germany too, but I think I'll refrain from sinking to your level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
...
right back at you, perhaps now you can go back to your original post and see why broad generalization isn't good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
snip
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-12-14 at 20:37. Reason: quote edited
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Old 2012-12-14, 20:20   Link #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
right back at you, perhaps now you can go back to your original post and see why broad generalization isn't good.
Broad generalization of what? That guns are enabling these demented people to go on rampages with deadly force? That guns are self-promoting through fear/concealed carrying? That's not a damn generalization.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-12-14 at 20:33. Reason: going a tad too far.
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