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Old 2012-12-16, 22:06   Link #541
TinyRedLeaf
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I'm highly sceptical about this claim that the United States has more "crazies" than all other developed countries, and that it's because these crazy people aren't adequately taken care of that we see the level of sensationally violent crimes in the US.

Anyone has credible figures to back up these claims? I believe the problem is much more multi-faceted than just about mentally unsound people.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:10   Link #542
Nightbat®
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Like it or not, the circumstances around the US's founding has led to a mindset that's against needless government intrusion.
So how many school shootings have to occur before the government isn't needlessly intruding in the liberties of its citizens?
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:10   Link #543
Urzu 7
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Flying, mentally ill people are not "the insane" and "loons", and you make the "loons" seem like they are blood thirsty, villainous savages.

There are a lot of mentally ill people who are not dangerous, and all mentally ill people, whether they are dangerous or not, are people that deserve getting good help.

Just like how we need to have reasonable approaches and attitudes for gun control, we need to be reasonable about how we treat and regard mentally ill people. Saying something like "throw them into straight jackets and lock 'em all up" just won't do.

What is even worse is surely you got some people in this country who think we outta round them all up and "shoot them in the back of the head". Is there any basis to suggest such a thing? There is some. I know I've seen some real grade 'A' people () suggest we do that to all the gays and 'gender queer' people in the country, so you gotta wonder, who else do they think outta be rounded up and killed?
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:16   Link #544
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
So how many school shootings have to occur before the government isn't needlessly intruding in the liberties of its citizens?
Please, do continue to take my words out of context, it makes you look so much better

In case you haven't noticed, this thread is about debating the merits of gun control policies, if snarky one-liner with no substance is all you have...
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:26   Link #545
GundamFan0083
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Since the 2nd amendment is key to this debate, and I don't know of a better researched piece currently, I asked a user on my forum for his permission to re-post his treatice on the 2nd Amendment here.
I found it very interesting.
I don't agree with some of his personal views, but his raw data is excellent.

Spoiler for Gigantic wall o' text:
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:32   Link #546
Urzu 7
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I saw this at the end of your post: "The two questions now are what the efficacy of the militia is today, and does the 2nd amendment apply in modern America."


That is the thing. Does the 2nd amendment apply to modern day America, and if it does, to what degree? Surely it doesn't apply as much in 2012 as it did in, say, 1797.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:35   Link #547
GundamFan0083
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(Part 2, re-posted with permission)

Spoiler for Gigantic Wall o' text Part 2.:
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:38   Link #548
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I saw this at the end of your post: "The two questions now are what the efficacy of the militia is today, and does the 2nd amendment apply in modern America."


That is the thing. Does the 2nd amendment apply to modern day America, and if it does, to what degree? Surely it doesn't apply as much in 2012 as it did in, say, 1797.
Sorry Urzu7, I had to finish copying and pasting his post from the thread on my site to this one.
Animesuki only allows up to 50,000 words.
I have my site set to 500,000 words, so it had to be posted in two separate posts.
I should warn you, the user (Proud Proletarian) is a die-hard conservative and his post may bother some of you.
In short, he's snarky, but he is a friend of mine.

The reason for my posting this long winded two-part post is because many (if not most) of the arguments we're going to see in the next few months to try and pass new gun-control laws, are the same tired old arguments that have been used over and over again for decades, and PP's treatice on the 2nd amendment does a good job of challenging many of these positions.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:49   Link #549
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
That is the thing. Does the 2nd amendment apply to modern day America, and if it does, to what degree? Surely it doesn't apply as much in 2012 as it did in, say, 1797.
Depends on one's opinion on whether the fundamental reasoning behind the 2nd Amendment is still valid. After all, you wouldn't say the same thing about the 1st Amendment would you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
I should warn you, the user (Proud Proletarian) is a die-hard conservative and his post may bother some of you.
HOLY**** wall-o-text! (maybe put it behind a spoiler tag to save space? )

And yes, that guys is rather conservative to say the least. Can't say I agree with all his points, but at least his opinion is well thought out.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:56   Link #550
Urzu 7
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When people start having intelligent discussions on this, you can see that an outright ban of all guns just isn't the way to go.

But for a lot of people who haven't been in thought provoking discussions over this, I don't blame a lot of them for seeing all the gun violence in America and seeing all these shooting sprees and saying things like "WTF, ban guns already!". Not really the solution and there is a lot to do to help the situation, but I don't blame so many people for such a knee jerk reaction. I mean, there are tons of guns in the hands of ordinary citizens. Someone posted something today which said that for ordinary American citizens who own guns, there are about 310 million guns that are owned, and this article said that is nearly one gun for every U.S. citizen and about 3 guns for every household.

Go to the UK and Ireland, go to France and Switzerland and Norway and Sweden and Canada, do they have nearly one gun for every citizen and about 3 guns for every household?
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:57   Link #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I'm highly sceptical about this claim that the United States has more "crazies" than all other developed countries, and that it's because these crazy people aren't adequately taken care of that we see the level of sensationally violent crimes in the US.

Anyone has credible figures to back up these claims? I believe the problem is much more multi-faceted than just about mentally unsound people.
We don't. The difference is our unhinged folks have easier access to weapons and much more difficult access to mental health services.

This doesn't mean we should add more gun control laws that already have proven not to work. We had less of these problems when we had fewer gun control laws.

More laws aren't the solution. Smart laws are. The current laws are by and large "feel-good" legislation that doesn't actually benefit anyone.

What needs to happen is that the right wing needs to stop defunding public services, specifically mental health services. What needs to happen is that sane, sound, logical gun laws need to be enacted, and silly, stupid "feel-good" laws like the "black rifles ban" needs to be lifted because they're entirely pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Go to the UK and Ireland, go to France and Switzerland and Norway and Sweden and Canada, do they have nearly one gun for every citizen and about 3 guns for every household?
In Switzerland, males over the age of 18 are required by law to keep and maintain a military assault rifle (an actual soldier's weapon, not just a "tacticool" civvy replica) and practice with it regularly to keep their skills up.
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Old 2012-12-16, 22:58   Link #552
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I'm highly sceptical about this claim that the United States has more "crazies" than all other developed countries, and that it's because these crazy people aren't adequately taken care of that we see the level of sensationally violent crimes in the US.

Anyone has credible figures to back up these claims? I believe the problem is much more multi-faceted than just about mentally unsound people.
It's absolutely more multifaceted. Western society, particularly in places like Japan and the US, are pressure cookers. All it takes is something simple and the match is lit. The issue isn't guns, it's how a society handles its emotional state. There is a lot of pressure on the typical citizen, from work, home, etc. And how that pressure is let off varies, but the window for relieving that pressure gets smaller and smaller.

When you have a society where poverty clashes with social expectations of wealth and status, when community is a loosely used term and in reality most of us don't know anyone around us, when business treats employees increasingly like cogs in a machine and not like actual humans, when media constantly bombards you with advertising and sensationalism, etc., you end up like this guy:

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

You can throw all of the guns in the dumpster, dull every knife, and wrap everyone in bubbles, but you're still going to have a society unwilling to confront itself unless it has no choice. Ever wonder why the US is the worlds largest consumer of drugs?
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:03   Link #553
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Depends on one's opinion on whether the fundamental reasoning behind the 2nd Amendment is still valid. After all, you wouldn't say the same thing about the 1st Amendment would you?



HOLY**** wall-o-text! (maybe put it behind a spoiler tag to save space? )

And yes, that guys is rather conservative to say the least. Can't say I agree with all his points, but at least his opinion is well thought out.
No problem, I'll put it behind spoilers if you like.
And I have to admit I have stolen points from his analysis on many an occation.
I don't know how much time he put into that post, but I must say the data is excellent, especially if you're looking for quotes by the founders or want to know some of the key court cases involving gun-control in the US.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:04   Link #554
GundamFan0083
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Thank you Solace, for putting those posts into spoilers.
Again, your forum-Fu is greater than mine.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:04   Link #555
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
When people start having intelligent discussions on this, you can see that an outright ban of all guns just isn't the way to go.
That, more than anything else, is what I'd love to see, whatever conclusion one may draw from the debates.

Quote:
Go to the UK and Ireland, go to France and Switzerland and Norway and Sweden and Canada, do they have nearly one gun for every citizen and about 3 guns for every household?
Different culture, different history, different laws. What works in one place may not work in the other, and vice versa. Though it would be an interesting thought exercise, how much gun proliferation would there be in those countries if they had the same rights to own firearms as those in the US? and would that turn those nations into the equivalence of the US as far as gun violence go?
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:04   Link #556
Solace
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No problem. Was a good read, even though I don't agree with some of the rhetoric.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:05   Link #557
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Depends on one's opinion on whether the fundamental reasoning behind the 2nd Amendment is still valid. After all, you wouldn't say the same thing about the 1st Amendment would you?

The first amendment is a beautiful thing. Thank God for it. The second amendment? Not so much.


The first amendment has fit in well with modern day America. It has been very important for America. Unfortunately, it also allows for all the hate speech to be protected as well, which is too bad.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:07   Link #558
Ithekro
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Much like the First Amendment doesn't allow you to walk into a crowded theater and yell "FIRE!" the 2nd Amendment does not allow you to just go up and shot someone for looking at you funny.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:09   Link #559
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
The first amendment is a beautiful thing. Thank God for it. The second amendment? Not so much.


The first amendment has fit in well with modern day America. It has been very important for America. Unfortunately, it also allows for all the hate speech to be protected as well, which is too bad.
Unfortunately? Remember that pressure cooker thing? Here's a bit of "man wisdom": some of the best friends I've ever made came from one of us saying something stupid and fighting over it. Sometimes you need to let people get things out in the open, even if it isn't the things you want to hear.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:14   Link #560
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
In Switzerland, males over the age of 18 are required by law to keep and maintain a military assault rifle (an actual soldier's weapon, not just a "tacticool" civvy replica) and practice with it regularly to keep their skills up.
Ah, I was most certainly wrong in listing Switzerland.


TinyRedLeaf is right, the problem with the out of control gun violence in America is multifaceted. I've believed that for some time now.

I believe a large assortment of problems with America are multifaceted. A couple of days ago, in I think the News Stories thread, I said that I believe that, being that America is so complex and complicated (probably the most complex, complicated, and convoluted society in the history of the world), I believe this is a significant factor as to why America is such a troubled nation that is so full of very serious problems.
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