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Old 2012-12-16, 23:16   Link #561
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Unfortunately? Remember that pressure cooker thing? Here's a bit of "man wisdom": some of the best friends I've ever made came from one of us saying something stupid and fighting over it. Sometimes you need to let people get things out in the open, even if it isn't the things you want to hear.
I think (and this was just my interpretation) that he was speaking more towards the kind of stuff you get from Fox, where it just incites otherwise rational people, or the KKK, where they aren't discussing it or speaking normally, or Westboro, who are just real life trolls.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:22   Link #562
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I think (and this was just my interpretation) that he was speaking more towards the kind of stuff you get from Fox, where it just incites otherwise rational people, or the KKK, where they aren't discussing it or speaking normally, or Westboro, who are just real life trolls.
I understood that. My point was that it is better to have these elements out in the open, where they can be seen and addressed, than to suppress them until they appear to come from nowhere and do serious irreparable harm. That doesn't mean we should give them legitimacy of equivalence - by all means they should be mocked and derided for their stupid as much as possible - but we shouldn't pretend such voices don't exist either, even if it is painful to witness.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:26   Link #563
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Much like the First Amendment doesn't allow you to walk into a crowded theater and yell "FIRE!" the 2nd Amendment does not allow you to just go up and shot someone for looking at you funny.

Of course not. But it has led to a culture full of gun owners and gun enthusiasts. Is this one reason for our excessive gun related violence. Also, because of that amendment, we have gun rights that have to be protected. I'm not a big fan of the 2nd amendment, but it is there and we have to protect it, because as some make the point, if we were to take away the 2nd amendment, then what amendments will be next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Unfortunately? Remember that pressure cooker thing? Here's a bit of "man wisdom": some of the best friends I've ever made came from one of us saying something stupid and fighting over it. Sometimes you need to let people get things out in the open, even if it isn't the things you want to hear.

'Unfortunately'? I had things like the awful westboro church in mind when I said that. Yes, unfortunately. Unfortunately we have to not just bear with, not just withstand some of the vehement bullshit from some of our American citizens, we have to protect it. Organizations like the westboro cult should be shut up and disbanded, really, but we can't, because it compromises some very important things put into place for the country, so unfortunately, we have to protect the rights of some real lousy crazies, all for the greater good of the American people.
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Old 2012-12-16, 23:29   Link #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I'm not a big fan of the 2nd amendment, but it is there and we have to protect it, because as some make the point, if we were to take away the 2nd amendment, then what amendments will be next?
Depends on how it's taken away. If it's done such that you're allowed to keep your guns if you're actually in a militia, it'd be hard to remove others. If they just renounce it, like prohibition, then I suspect the next to go would be the 5th or 6th.
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Old 2012-12-17, 01:53   Link #565
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post

Just like how we need to have reasonable approaches and attitudes for gun control, we need to be reasonable about how we treat and regard mentally ill people.
... and ACLU is NOT helping lately. When mental health experts advocated a law that might reduce the violence caused by mentally ill people who are untreated... “rights” above safety advocates like ACLU shots it down. The risk that innocent people might be murdered was not as important as the fact that the mentally ill might lose their “right” to walk around untreated.


Quote:
A troubling revelation has broken regarding a mental health bill recently defeated in Connecticut during this calendar year. Had it passed, that bill could have possibly taken Adam Lanza off the streets so he would not have been free to commit his heinous act on December 14.

In February 2012, Connecticut Senate Bill 452 (SB452) was put forward to remedy the fact that Connecticut was one of less than ten states in the U.S. to lack an "assisted outpatient treatment" (AOT) law.

But the bill was passed to Connecticut's Joint Committee on Judiciary in March, where it quietly faded away because of opposition by those who viewed it as "egregious" and "outrageously discriminatory."

Had this law passed, it may have forced Adam Lanza to be treated for his alleged mental illness instead of allowing him to roam free, and ultimately to kill 26 persons and himself in a vindictive rage on Friday.......

Last edited by flying ^; 2012-12-17 at 02:10.
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Old 2012-12-17, 02:07   Link #566
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More on ACLU.....

Is the ACLU directly responsible for the massacre in Arizona?

Rights of the mentally ill have always been a special part of the ACLU’s agenda. In the past, treatment of the mentally ill was brutal and horrific, with the mentally ill confined to cages like animals and treated as subhuman. As research into mental illness gave us insight to the disease, we discovered that brain chemistry has much to do with the more catastrophic illnesses, such as paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Based on that excellent research, drugs have been developed to minimize the symptoms and make these illnesses manageable. That is, if the drugs are taken regularly, as prescribed. If they are not, symptoms can return and can even be made worse.

That’s not quite the way the ACLU sees it, however, and it has taken to the courts to make sure that those diagnosed with mental illness are not forced to take medication. From an ACLU of New Mexico press release:

Quote:
August 6, 2008

CONTACT: (505) 266-5915 ext. 1003

ALBUQUERQUE— Yesterday, the New Mexico Court of Appeals struck down a city ordinance, affirming an earlier ruling, that would have empowered the city of Albuquerque to forcibly medicate people with mental illnesses. The Assisted Outpatient Treatment Law (AOT) conflicted with state laws that require patient consent before treatment. This decision is a tremendous victory – upholding civil liberties in New Mexico.
Why did Albuquerque enact this law in the first place? The press release gives us an idea:

Quote:
Protection and Advocacy System, Inc., the American Civil Liberties Union of New Mexico (ACLU), and The Law Offices of Peter Cubra initially sued the City in 2006, alleging that AOT subjects people with mental illness to potentially invasive treatment regimens based upon speculation that they might become dangerous.
By all accounts, speculation that the shooter in Arizona would become dangerous was widespread – and correct. The simple fact is that under the laws of that state, and others, thanks in large part to the ACLU, there was nothing that could be done – including making the shooter take medication or seek treatment. This is what the New Mexico law was trying to address, but in a less coercive form. The requirement was that those who were already receiving mental health services – there have been no reports that the Arizona shooter was under care – would need to continue with treatment and / or drugs. The press release explains:

Quote:
AOT, also known as Kendra’s Law, grants judges the authority to require people receiving mental health services to take psychiatric drugs, regularly undergo psychiatric treatment, or both. Failure to comply could result in the patient’s being committed to an institution for up to 72 hours.
Why is it called Kendra’s law? From Wikipedia, cross-checked for accuracy through other sources:

Quote:
In 1999, there was a series of incidents involving individuals with untreated mental illness becoming violent. In two similar assaults in the New York City subway a man diagnosed with schizophrenia pushed a person into the path of an oncoming train. Andrew Goldstein, age 29, while off medicines, pushed Kendra Webdale to her death in front of an oncoming NYC subway train. The law is named after her.
The law was modeled and signed into law in many states, has been challenged, and in both cases has been ruled constitutional. The challenge that was won by the ACLU in New Mexico was because Kendra’s Law conflicted with state law, but it certainly was not the reason given for the initiation of the lawsuit. Remember, the ACLU’s position is that:

Quote:
…AOT subjects people with mental illness to potentially invasive treatment regimens based upon speculation that they might become dangerous.
The reason that more stringent laws mandating involuntary hospitalization or treatment of those with severe mental illness have not been enacted is the real fear of a protracted lawsuit by the ACLU.

The ACLU’s argument is that people should be in charge of their own psychiatric treatment. The Catch-22 is that while off medication, many individuals with certain mental illnesses do not have the capacity to determine their own treatment. That has made no difference to the ACLU, whose lawsuits have been responsible for the mass deinstitutionalizing of the mentally ill, who, without the benefit of therapy and/or medication, regularly turn into the chronically homeless – and sometimes into violent criminals.

Which brings us back to Arizona. I am not a mental health professional. Here is what I believe, however, from simple research. The Arizona shooter was severely mentally ill. His writings, videos and postings indicate that he was convinced that the government was trying to brainwash us all, especially him. It is quite likely that he believes attempting to kill Representative Giffords was an act of self-defense, and that he would have tried to do so regardless of what political party she belonged to or what her stand on the issues were. The shooter was worried about “brainwashing” and being “forced to worship God” by the government – not about immigration or health care.

The debate here is not whether anything from the outside provoked the shooter – anyone who tries to pass off that meme with all that we now know is absolutely and clearly trying to score political points, nothing more. The issue is how far we can go as a society to protect ourselves from people who are clearly mentally ill, and how far the ACLU and the left will go in making sure we can’t.


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Old 2012-12-17, 02:31   Link #567
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I'm sorry but it's not the progressives who are destroying public mental health care services. You can spout nonsense about the ACLU all you want, but it's Republicans and Tea Partiers who continue to defund public healthcare organizations.

Progressives don't want people with serious mental health issues on the streets, fending for themselves, barely able to survive so that they might be forced to steal food and be tossed in private prisons.

We want them housed, fed and treated so that they can be happy, productive members of society.
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Old 2012-12-17, 02:36   Link #568
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I though this thread is lock so i transferring here.

US senator launches bid to ban assault weapons


WASHINGTON: A leading Democratic senator launched a bid Sunday to ban assault weapons in the wake of the latest deadly US school shooting, announcing that she will put a bill before Congress on January 3.

Full Article

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/us-sena...apons-1.187423
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Old 2012-12-17, 02:58   Link #569
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All I've got to say about Feinstein is she, the pot, should stop calling the kettle black.
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Old 2012-12-17, 03:04   Link #570
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The paranoia about government and police can also be traced in some respects to Hollywood. There were a lot....a whole lot, of anti-government films and films about the government becoming oppressive police states and the like since the 1960s and into the 1980s...especially around concepts like "1984". There were also TV shows about controlling governments and out of control government agencies ("The Prisoner" comes to mind). Be it the President, the CIA, FBI, or any number of departments that might have an agenda for something.

A lot of these have also lead to a fear of government. It might just be entertainment, but authors like sending out messages for the readers to ponder. Sometimes they are correct and other times they are just out there.
I dislike people who automatically distrust our government and all that serve it. However, I understand fear and skepticism to certain extents because... well... Our government HAS lied to us on numerous occasions which go as far as starting wars under false pretenses. Then they admitted to it. Especially these days with all of the talk of over-zealous monitoring of citizens, fear of the government is somewhat justified.

So in that respect pointing to Hollywood may be ill-advised.
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Old 2012-12-17, 03:07   Link #571
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Thank you.
Now, I'll post this here in response to Dianne's total disregard for historical fact.

Why don't the fear mongers get it? Gun-control doesn't work, and never has in the US.
In 1934 the National Firearms Act was passed which banned citizens from owning a sawed off shotgun or machinegun without registering them and getting a Federal Tax Stamp liscence.
In 1938 it became illegal to sell weapons across state lines without a Federal Firearms Liscence, yet millions of guns are bought and sold illegally all over the US yearly.
In 1968 congress passed the Gun Control Act of 68 which required every gun buyer to fill out form 4473 and effectively ended mail order sale of guns by non-FFL dealers, it also banned the sale of assault rifles (real, fully automatic/machine rifles, tri-burst, commonly called "select-fire") without a liscence and reclassified them as machineguns (which they are not).
In 1986 the sale of new machinguns to citizens was banned entirely. In 1989 Bush Senior banned the import of foreign made militia rifles (semi-automatic military style weapons that are NOT assault rifles).
In 1994 the "Assault Weapons Ban" was passed that banned militia rifles and high-capacity magazines. Yet the North Hollywood Bank robbers used real assault rifles (fully automatic) in 1997.
Clintion pushed for an got passed the "Gun Free Schools" Act of 1995, yet in 1998 Eric Harris and Dylan Kleebold violated that law when they entered Columbine with two sawed off 12-guage shotguns and two tech-nine semi-auto pistols with high-cap magazines. In 2002 the DC Sniper caused a reign of terror for weeks with an AR-15 and low capacity mags (5-rounds).
The school massacres in North America started in 1764 wtih the Pontiac Rebellion Massacre in Delaware where 10 school children were killed, and these types of attacks have continued ever since.
No law will stop them.

Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results", let's stop making the same mistake by banning guns or pushing for more gun-control. History has proven that it doesn't work.

What does work?
The Israeli model of armed teachers, and citizens and requiring them to train and become proficient in the use of arms to protect not only themselves but our children.
Jeanne Assam proved this works in the US in 2007 at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs when she stopped an active shooter from committing an atrocity.

When we as a society take responsibility for ourselves and our loved ones, instead of passing the "buck" to government, then we will lessen the frequency and damage of mass murderer attacks.


We've had gun control for 80 years that has banned, restricted, and prohibited firearms of one sort or another.
Has it stopped these shootings?
No.
Will new laws stop them?
No.
Will Feinstein's idiotic attempt at banning possession (meaning trying to force people to turn in their guns) work?
No.
Will it cause violence on a level that will make Friday's shooting pale in comparison?
Yes.
Will it get past the house of representatives?
No.
And thank G-d for that.
We don't need a civil war over this.
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Old 2012-12-17, 03:39   Link #572
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
It's absolutely more multifaceted. Western society, particularly in places like Japan and the US, are pressure cookers. All it takes is something simple and the match is lit. The issue isn't guns, it's how a society handles its emotional state. There is a lot of pressure on the typical citizen, from work, home, etc. And how that pressure is let off varies, but the window for relieving that pressure gets smaller and smaller.
America...

In any case, I am reminded of a case study highlighted in Freakonomics, regarding the relationship between abortion and crime in the United States.
Quote:
If one compares states that had high abortion rates in the mid 1970s to states that had low abortion rates in the mid 1970s, you see the following patterns with crime: For the period from 1973-1988, the two sets of states (high abortion states and low abortion states) have nearly identical crime patterns. Note, that this is a period before the generations exposed to legalised abortion are old enough to do much crime.

But from the period 1985-1997, when the post Roe cohort is reaching peak crime ages, the high abortion states see a decline in crime of 30 per cent relative to the low abortion states. Our original data ended in 1997. If one updated the study, the results would be similar.

All of the decline in crime from 1985-1997 experienced by high abortion states relative to low abortion states is concentrated among the age groups born after Roe vs Wade. For people born before abortion legalisation, there is no difference in the crime patterns for high abortion and low abortion states, just as the Donohue-Levitt theory predicts.

The homicide rate of young males (especially young black males) temporarily skyrocketed in the late 1980s, especially in urban centres like Los Angeles, New York City, and Washington, DC, before returning to regular levels soon thereafter. These young males who were hitting their peak crime years were born right around the time abortion was legalised.
Now contrast the observations on abortions with the author's blog article about teenage pregnancy:
Quote:
By Janet Currie, a Columbia economist:

Teen moms are less likely than other women to attend or complete college, and their marriages are more likely to end in divorce; about 50 per cent of women who married younger than age 18 are divorced after 10 years, compared to 20 percent of women who married at age 25 or older. In turn, single mothers have the highest poverty rates of any demographic group, and 60 per cent of the US-born children in mother-only families are poor.

High teen pregnancy rates remain a serious problem in the US. Although they have declined since they peaked in 1990, rates are still twice as high as those in Canada or England, and eight times as high as those in the Netherlands or in Japan.

These international differences are due to low contraceptive use in the US; most of the recent decline in teen pregnancy in the US is due to more consistent use of birth control, although teens are also waiting longer to have sex than in the past. In 1995, almost 20 per cent of girls had sex by age 17, compared to 15 per cent in 2002.
Now, I don't think the authors are suggesting that teen pregnancy will be the cause of many potential problems for the United States. Rather, the greatest takeaway from Freakonomics is that there are a huge variety of things that are going wrong in the country, of which rising teen pregnancy is but one of many symptoms. And these conditions in turn create fertile breeding ground for crime and violence.

I won't be surprised to find some correlation between various indicators of socio-economic breakdown in America and its prevalence of gun crime.
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Old 2012-12-17, 04:21   Link #573
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There are other factors that are a part of US life.
We here are under considerable peer pressure from hollywood, and other sources to look beautiful/handsome, have the right eye color, hair color, skin color, physical fitness, car, house, education, job position, investment portfolio, looks of husband/wife, sexual prowess, social standing, etc.

Now I know all cultures have this, and there may be equal to or greater pressures in other countries, but combine this with drugs, gangs, child abuse, degredation by peers, corrupt politicians, social chaos (promiscuity, fraud, disrespect, intolerance, etc.), and then throw wanton violence in the media, movies, music, and video games into the mix and you can see why someone who already has a mental issue will do what they do.

Just look at the serial killers in our society.

Among the worst being people like Henry Lee Lucas who confessed to killing 600 people (only 350 are believed credible by the Texas Lucas Task Force).

Then there's Richard "Iceman" Kuklinski who claimed to have killed nearly 250 people (not confirmed).

Or Gary Ridgeway, who killed 48 people (confirmed) but police believe he killed many more.

My point in saying this is that the degredation of Ameircan society as a whole is the problem and these mass shootings are simply a symptom of the disease.
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Old 2012-12-17, 05:28   Link #574
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I think the reason is the culture of fear that pushed people to own guns. The Americans had to fight the British, then subsequently amongst themselves after the 7-year war. U.S had fought in many major conflict since its independence that drove its culture that the gun is the way of life for an American.

And just 5 years ago, there are 2 articles in light of the Virginia Massacre :

Southern U.S. town proud of its mandatory gun law

FACTBOX: Guns and gun ownership in the United States

I guess the problem isn't exactly with the gun laws, but rather that the people need to clear their minds before the magazine on someone else. And not everyone can do that without help, if US can quantitatively ease the housing market, how about quantitatively easing people's minds and put more funding into mental healthcare (or the entire healthcare in general)?

Besides, Americans have known how to build guns themselves and even powder their own cartridges. What would a gun law do to deter them from putting a couple of rounds into the woods before the sheriff comes by? Even worse, it could encourage people to buy or build their own silencers or silenced weapons.
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Old 2012-12-17, 05:58   Link #575
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I'll support a unilateral ban on firearms, but only when I can be provided with a personal defense shield that renders me completely immune to physical damage.

Until then, if I'm being shot/stabbed/bludgeoned/otherwise assaulted with the intent to cause grievous harm, I'd prefer being able to shoot back.
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Old 2012-12-17, 06:28   Link #576
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Allow every household eligible and sane own a gun of course with permit.. When they quarrel and drank, don't expect that they will not shoot each other... since they're sane in the first place....

Sane people don't shoot each other or unless, very angry or drunk...

Armed all eligible and sane teachers to protect them from terrorist, their hard head college students and other bad teachers . They will not argue with the teacher regarding cheap matters. Both will not lay a finger against each other unless they too have a gun.

Shotguns are use to hunt games that's why cops carry them too. They look at criminals as gaming birds..

Last edited by NoemiChan; 2012-12-17 at 06:42.
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Old 2012-12-17, 06:55   Link #577
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Connecticut victim

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Old 2012-12-17, 08:31   Link #578
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Allow every household eligible and sane own a gun of course with permit.. When they quarrel and drank, don't expect that they will not shoot each other... since they're sane in the first place....

Sane people don't shoot each other or unless, very angry or drunk...

Armed all eligible and sane teachers to protect them from terrorist, their hard head college students and other bad teachers . They will not argue with the teacher regarding cheap matters. Both will not lay a finger against each other unless they too have a gun.

Shotguns are use to hunt games that's why cops carry them too. They look at criminals as gaming birds..
Actually anti-terror teams and policemen are issued with shotguns so they could do crowd control - if worst case scenarios of a group of madmen charging at you with parangs, a single round from the hip should stop most of them. It is also used to stop "moving targets" as policemen tend to suck with automatic weapons, even SMGs cannot use automatic weapons for fear of hitting bystanders, so shotguns are used to take down a person by aiming for the leg.

Stopping power isn't exactly a good reason when collateral damage is taken into account. A riot shotgun shell for the Remington 870 can have almost 400+ pellets if I remember correctly, and it is a pain to fire from the shoulder.

And despite what many people think, firing a shotgun at a person at close range is not only an overkill, it is also considered a voluntary manslaughter if a civil servant does so even in self-defence. It is meant to spray a large amount of projectiles as a deterence, unless of course, the enemy is/are zombies.
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Old 2012-12-17, 09:06   Link #579
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
And despite what many people think, firing a shotgun at a person at close range is not only an overkill, it is also considered a voluntary manslaughter if a civil servant does so even in self-defence. It is meant to spray a large amount of projectiles as a deterence, unless of course, the enemy is/are zombies.
Uh, maybe where you're from, but certainly not in the US.

Quote:
if worst case scenarios of a group of madmen charging at you with parangs, a single round from the hip should stop most of them.
Just what kind of spray pattern do you guys have on your shotgun? and shooting from the hip?

It is a common myth that shotgun is a spray and forget weapon that anyone has ever fired one will quickly realize as false. In close quarter, a shotgun requires as much precision aiming as rifles or pistols, and at no point are they capable of taking out a group of people with a single round at either close or medium range, that's just Hollywood. Not to mention that firing from the hip is a terrible idea, as it's about as accurate as firing pistols gangster style while also doing the gangnam dance

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I guess the problem isn't exactly with the gun laws, but rather that the people need to clear their minds before the magazine on someone else. And not everyone can do that without help, if US can quantitatively ease the housing market, how about quantitatively easing people's minds and put more funding into mental healthcare (or the entire healthcare in general)?
This I completely agree with, the mental health infrastructure in the US is in such a poor state it should be a national embarrassment.

Last edited by kyp275; 2012-12-17 at 09:20.
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Old 2012-12-17, 09:15   Link #580
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I'll just throw this here.



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