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Old 2012-12-18, 23:04   Link #761
Urzu 7
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Great, one day, we'll have to worry about our children making guns in their rooms with 3D printers. And dildos. Pink, floppy ones.

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?
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Old 2012-12-18, 23:10   Link #762
Ithekro
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But can they make ammunition on a printer?
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Old 2012-12-18, 23:19   Link #763
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
But can they make ammunition on a printer?
Not yet, but as they get better and better, they'll probably be able to make guns and ammo with 3D printers that are reliable enough to be used far more than just six shots.
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Old 2012-12-18, 23:23   Link #764
KiraYamatoFan
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Speaking of ammunition, has it ever occurred to anyone in the past that overtaxing ammunition as much as it's done with cigarettes could have been a good idea to discourage people from buying loads of spare ammo for whatever they have of a gun? Just a question popping out of nowhere.
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Old 2012-12-18, 23:30   Link #765
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Speaking of ammunition, has it ever occurred to anyone in the past that overtaxing ammunition as much as it's done with cigarettes could have been a good idea to discourage people from buying loads of spare ammo for whatever they have of a gun? Just a question popping out of nowhere.
Taxing ammunition has been discussed in political circles. I don't consider it a bad idea for generating revenues to pay for some of the things we've discussed - but most people stock up on ammo anyway. The usual counterargument is that you're creating a "rich poor" divide on who can afford weapons -- a variation on the old feudal "peasants can't have swords" custom.
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Old 2012-12-18, 23:34   Link #766
Urzu 7
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I just had a great idea. We can't ban guns. That'd totally go against the 2nd amendment. But we could just ban all ammunition! PROBLEM SOLVED. No more shooting sprees. Someone pass me the phone, I'mma call congress.






Of course, I'm just with this post.
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Old 2012-12-18, 23:38   Link #767
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I just had a great idea. We can't ban guns. That'd totally go against the 2nd amendment. But we could just ban all ammunition! PROBLEM SOLVED. No more shooting sprees. Someone pass me the phone, I'mma call congress.






Of course, I'm just with this post.
Actually, supposedly grown up serious politicians have suggested that as well. Ammo can be made in basements, though ... just sayin' ->black market potential.
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Old 2012-12-18, 23:42   Link #768
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Actually, supposedly grown up serious politicians have suggested that as well. Ammo can be made in basements, though ... just sayin' ->black market potential.

Well, for those that wanna ban all guns, that might be a way to circumvent the 2nd amendment. It might be a way to work around it. Because if they were to ever ban all guns (not likely to happen, just saying if they were), they'd have to axe the 2nd amendment.

You know, about getting rid of the 2nd amendment and people saying we can't do that because it would mean we would be bound to get rid of other amendments in the years to follow, that might not necessarily be true. Didn't we have amendments that existed in the past that got axed early on in American history (in the 1700s and 1800s, I believe)?
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Old 2012-12-19, 00:01   Link #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
Wow, missed a lot of stuff!
First off Reckoner, I suppose you've never seen the inside of a stock yard or rendering plant? I suggest you take a look at one some time and see how revolting it is, how cruely the animals are treated, and a peek at the "killing floor". I think you might look differently at your store bought meats.
As for the hunting side of it, the game has every chance of escaping the hunter (as long as its not a "canned hunt") simply by evading the hunter. Also any true hunter will make a humane kill with one shot, dress the animal in the field, take to a proper butcher shop and tell the butcher what additives and preservatives to use in the meat and his too cut, and it what portions.
I'm quite aware of what goes on in slaughter houses and the like. I watched exactly how they put a cow in a boxed area where they can't even move and something akin to a pile driver slowly closes in on their head and they can't even turn away and simply watch it kill them by piercing their skulls.

But I was never really making a judgement call in the first place about the morality of slaughter houses vs hunting. I'm not PETA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Thanks for sharing your opinion, it shows me that you are not rational about this subject because you just admitted you want the amendment repealed because it's "run its course."
Not remotely, the Greeks had it 24 centuries before the United States did.
The right to keep and bear arms is one of the corner stones of western civilization.

The only thing that has run its course in the US is "feel good" forms of gun control.
It doesn't work and it needs to start getting dismantled.
I'll clarify that by saying the bans on weapons need to go, the laws that prohibit open carry need to go, the laws that create "gun free zones" need to go.

We should keep the background checks and add to it the mental health records with strict restrictions on government form abusing the screening process.

Mandatory training is a must.
There is already a "litmus" test built into the constitution (article 1, section 8) about which arms are for the militia, and like it or not as a citizen of the US you are a member of the militia if you are male.
I posted a lengthy analysis of the 2nd amendment a few pages back in this thread by a person who did his research on the subject.
I will not trade freedom for security, therefore I can see we are diametrically opposite on this issue.
Sorry, I do not consider the right to bear arms as one of the corner stones of modern western civilization.

But yes, we are coming from opposite extremes on this issue, but I did say I was willing to be content with compromise in this country (Because well face it, the 2nd amendment isn't going away no matter what I think, and probably never will in the near future).

Something to consider might be the Israeli system for gun laws, a country with lower gun violence than gun banning countries like the UK. What do they have? A really strong vetting process. And this is a country that has a real reason for people to possess arms.
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Old 2012-12-19, 00:59   Link #770
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Something to consider might be the Israeli system for gun laws, a country with lower gun violence than gun banning countries like the UK. What do they have? A really strong vetting process. And this is a country that has a real reason for people to possess arms.
The term "gun violence" doesn't interest me in the least.
It's a propaganda term that is meaningless.
Murder is murder whether by gun, knife, or other implement.
Hoplophobes are the ones who seem to only want to discuss homicide by guns rather than all homicides: as if murder by a knife is any different.
Murder rates overall are dropping in the US, in fact in June they hit record lows not seen since the 1950s.
So all this hysterical hoplophobic hyperventilating crap comming out of the mouths of gun control freaks is just another bullshit attempt at disarmament.

While I agree we need to see a better system of weeding out the mentally unfit, there is no way Americans will tolerate the Israeli level of gun control.

We want their model of armed teachers/security in schools, but not their horribly restrictive gun laws.

Every country's people has a "real reason" to possess arms.
The question is whether or not they allow their government to strip them of their natural rights.
If they condone it, then it's their fault.
Here many Americans cherish their natural right to self-defense and their western heritage of a armed society, akin to what the Athenians had.
It's the Utopian types that put into place the "Gun Free Zone" Act of 1995 that are the problem.
This shooting would not have been as severe had this monster been met with equal force.
We know this because when equal force finally arrived in the form of a SWAT team, he shot himself.
That school, like all "Gun Free Zones" are why we're seeing these mass killings.
The attempted shooting on Saturday at a San Antonio movie theater effectively shows that.

The magical thinking of the gun-control freaks is that if they can ban "high-capacity" magazines or "assault rifles" that it's a start in the "right" direction, and that somehow it will make the US safer.
It will not.
The fact that Connecticut has an "assault rifle" ban prior to this shooting is proof of that.
That law was enacted 18 years ago, and it didn't do a damn thing to stop this attack.
The magazine ban nonsense shows an appalling ignorance of these devices.
A 30 round magazine does not make a weapon any more or less lethal than a 10 round magazine in a situation where there is no resistance whatsoever.
It's not like Adam Lanza had to battle it out with police.
If he had had ten 10 round magazines (100 rounds) he would have to reload more (about 2 seconds per clip) but still could get off 100 rounds.
And since he had a nylon tactical vest, carrying that many clips (10 rounders) is actually quite easy.
If he had used the shotgun instead of the AR-15, he could had gotten off 64 rounds of 9 mm ball ammo from 8 shells of 00 buck in the span of 2-3 seconds in a pump-action hunting shotgun.
With simple "feeding" of the tube, he could shoot spray after spray of 00 buck until he had no ammo left (so about 100 shells is what police said he had in the car, or 6400 9mm bullets).
This is why I have no respect for people who call for these stupid bans.
They don't know what they're talking about and it really shows in their comments.
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Old 2012-12-19, 01:44   Link #771
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Well, for those that wanna ban all guns, that might be a way to circumvent the 2nd amendment. It might be a way to work around it. Because if they were to ever ban all guns (not likely to happen, just saying if they were), they'd have to axe the 2nd amendment.
I'm pretty certain that efforts to put an outright ban on ammunition will be as likely to succeed as outright ban of all guns, as it's practically the same thing, though an ammo ban would be even more futile - it's a hell of a lot easier to make ammunition than complete firearms.

Quote:
You know, about getting rid of the 2nd amendment and people saying we can't do that because it would mean we would be bound to get rid of other amendments in the years to follow, that might not necessarily be true. Didn't we have amendments that existed in the past that got axed early on in American history (in the 1700s and 1800s, I believe)?
Whoever said that obviously failed American History 101, repealing an amendment has no bearing on other amendments. What you're thinking about is the 18th Amendment from 1913, which was repealed by the 21st Amendment in 1933. Amendment 19-27th are doing just fine

Though it'd be funny if that is true though, since that would mean the 21st would invalidate itself!
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Old 2012-12-19, 02:21   Link #772
GundamFan0083
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Okay, I'll modify what I said about background checks for the mentally ill.
If you're on this drug (or anything like it) you should not be given access to firearms.

The Antipsychotic Prescribed To Adam Lanza Has A Troubled History All Its Own

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/adam-...#ixzz2FTpGkVFd

This is clearly a major part of the problem in the United States.
We have far too many people on prescription drugs.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb08/atleastone.aspx
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Old 2012-12-19, 04:16   Link #773
Vexx
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My pharmacist wife will be the first to tell you far too many psychotropic drugs are marginal. Many side effects and high risk of inverted results - they absolutely require close monitoring. In other words, they *SHOULD* be administered to someone under hospital care, not as an outpatient.

But thanks to massive cutbacks and dismantlement of the US mental health systems in the 80s, bingo. We gots loose crazies everywhere. And drugs advertised on television that have high risks of the most astonishing side effects.
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Old 2012-12-19, 04:30   Link #774
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Yeah, I demonstrated to someone once both how many Glock 9mm 15round magazines I can carry in an unmodified leather jacket and how fast I can swap them out. Seriously, if you're just listening you might not hear the pause.
That is because you have mandatory cross-training with your SAD colleagues. We don't.

Quote:
But ... I practice. Why? Because its a form of martial art. I also practice with my swords. Why? I dunno ... where's that comic image of what Shield Agents consider a weapon for self-defense? (coffee mugs, cats, etc)
The only way which I can think of to use a cat for self defence is to show your opponents this :

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Come to think of it, I remember there was a time where we are taking turns to be the "bad guys" during training, and we suddenly created a challenge where the one being the "bad guy" would take the shortest time to draw his weapon and take a hostage. It was really fun and took our minds off the mundane drop-your-weapon drills; the fastest tricks we developed were gripping the right shoulder of the guy facing you then pull him into your chest while drawing your weapon, and another is simply kicking the side of his knee then doing a chokehold with the weapon pointed at the back of his neck.

Of course, the commanders stopped it when the counter-hostage-taking drills became hostage-taking drills.


Quote:
The point is that magazine/clip restrictions aren't a panacea. Possibly helpful, but not a single point fix.
Side-by-side mags. Even with small ones of 10 rounds, you can tape 4 of them together and hell still breaks loose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
But can they make ammunition on a printer?
They don't even need to. Flechette weapons work just as nice, or maybe in the future, semi-auto portable gauss guns.

Heck we even have portable weapons now at every hardware store. Just go buy those air-powered nailguns and plug them into the CO2 bottles used for paintguns.
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Old 2012-12-19, 04:33   Link #775
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People like to compare incidents of violent crime with the same in the UK and other European nations, but the fact of the matter is that "more guns" is not the only difference between the countries.

There are cultural differences. There are differences in available social services. There is the staggering gap between the rich and the poor. There is the thorny issue of healthcare in America, and that includes mental health services.

Blaming guns is easy and passing gun control laws make people feel better, but it doesn't actually fix the problem. It's a band-aid slapped on a gushing head wound--the patient's still going to bleed out and die. But those other problems--socioeconomic issues, healthcare issues, job issues, cultural issues--these are not so easily solved, and politicians cannot make easy promises about them.

It doesn't help that so many in America are too frightened of what they see in the mirror to even think about the actual causes.

Rather than put so much effort and time into a "solution" that won't even solve the problem, why not stop, take a step back, clear the strong emotions from our minds and start looking at the issue rationally?

Edit: I don't buy the "white privilege" argument, either. It seems this crops up every time a white guy is seen doing something reprehensible, and while you won't see me protect any mass murderer, I've got to say that it's completely unfair to paint Caucasians with such broad strokes. The "white privilege" argument always seems to boil down to, "if you are white, you are a racist by default, simply because you are white and privileged." This, in of itself, is racism within an accusation of racism. The argument is so persuasive to some people, especially white people (amusingly enough) because it's something of a self-deprecating "get out of jail free card" that enables a white person to set themselves aside from the "unenlightened" whites.

Note that this is coming from someone who is about as white as they come--my heritage is pretty strongly German with bits and pieces of English thrown in the mix. But I'm hardly "privileged," ostracized from my fundamentalist right-wing religious family for the horrible atrocity of homosexuality and a gender identity that doesn't fit into the strict Christian binary gender concept. My whiteness doesn't protect me or offer me any advantages that my sexuality and gender identity don't cancel out completely--and then some.
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Old 2012-12-19, 04:51   Link #776
Ithekro
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I know if at least one fictional "Utopian" model that still has civilian gun ownership. Star Trek's United Federation of Planets. In various episodes we see that Sulu and Kirk to some extent are gun collectors (Kirk seems in to 18th and 19th century firearms while Sulu is into 20th century pistols). We see civilains with modern or semi-modern weaponry for the time period (in the 2360s we see a civilian shuttle pilot with a 80 year old phaser, and in the 2150s we see a farmer in Oklahoma with a plasma rifle).
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Old 2012-12-19, 08:57   Link #777
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its the modern equivalent of me playing "army" with my friends in the neighborhood when I was a kid, bang bang followed by over-the-top death scenes falling off of fences, trees, roofs, etc.

Here .. a bit of science instead of soccer-mom emotional bullshit:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain...inues-to-fall/
This data actually doesn't prove much. I think that games can contribute, but we already have measures in place against them. Here's my take on it.

We're talking about video game's affects on children. The "gamer" generation started, what - 20, 30 years ago? Back then the gaming population was fairly small; when gaming entered the home, the demographic was made up mostly of children. Children today are still gaming, but people who were children back then are also still gaming. This will increase sales simply by virtue of expanding the "gaming population." Now grown up, adult gamers also have disposable income of their own, and have the potential to contribute even more to the "gaming economy" than the child gamers.

In other words, without knowing what age groups those dollars are going to, the chart doesn't really make the point that video games aren't related to the issue.

There's another problem. Video games today are much more immersive and life-like than the video games we were playing back in the 90's and early 2000's. I don't think my imaginary slaying of dragons, knights, and monsters was much different from others kids', but games today are much more detailed than my imagination was, and the details focused on are very different from the details that my imagination provided. I can only speak for myself here, but bodies didn't stick around in my imagination; on the times when they did, they tended to be comical heaps like you'd see in cartoons.

I remember the first time I played a semi-realistic computer game. I was nine or ten years old. For getting a wingman killed, there was a pre-rendered funeral scene. After stepping away from the computer, I cried my eyes out. My case may be unique, but it goes to show that there's a big difference between imagination and realistic computer games.

All together, we can't rule out the idea that the more immersive video games today can negatively influence children. Evidence supporting or rejecting that idea will play out over the next 10-20 years, as today's children are exposed to such games and grow older.

While the data of video game sales vs. violence can't disprove that violent video games may affect children, it doesn't seem like violent video games incite violence in general. As such, we already have a system in place to deal with the possibility that violent video games affect children: we now have a rating system to determine age-appropriateness of video games. I don't necessarily view these as hard limits, but they're useful guides for parents to use when determining whether to allow their child to play a certain game.

If children are playing those games regardless, then it represents a failing on the part of the parents. I don't think we should have to ban something just because parents can't be responsible or involved enough to withhold it from their child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Sorry for not making that clear.
A mental health database of those deemed a serious threat to society.
Like people with schizophrenia, sociopathic disorders, and psychotics.
The trouble with these databases is that it can be difficult (or impossible) to get off of them. There's already a huge stigma around people with "mental disorders" (broad term), and this could make things even worse by making it difficult for people to hide their disorder.

However, this made me think of something. In Pennsylvania (and perhaps other states), physicians are required by law to notify the department of transportation if they suspect that a patient of theirs is unfit to drive. What happens next is temporary revocation of the user's driver license. If the user wants to get their license back, they must be re-evaluated by the department of transportation. If they pass, they get their license back; if they don't, then their license remains revoked. While this doesn't prevent anyone from breaking the law and driving without a license, the overall purpose behind such measures is to get unsafe drivers off the road.

As far as I'm aware, there's no similar measure for guns. If a physician hears that a patient of theirs intends to harm someone then they are allowed to break confidentiality and notify the police; however, a patient who just vaguely seems threatening or unstable does not provide grounds for action.

What if a similar system could be put into place? If instability is noted or suspected, the person's firearm permit and registered firearms would be revoked; said person would be able to recover them after submitting to mental evaluation and firearm re-training. It wouldn't be a perfect system for many reasons (young people don't tend to visit the doctor; the rate at which physicians detect suicidal intent is statistically rather poor (~25%), so detection of homicidal intent or suicide/homicide may not be much better; and plenty of tragedies are carried out with unlicensed/unregistered guns), but it might be a start.
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Old 2012-12-19, 10:48   Link #778
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Gun Sales Soar in Central Texas

Whether it is simply the Christmas Spirit in the South, or possibly concern that the Government is going to start making it more difficult to purchase weapons, Gun sales in Central Texas have been much higher than normal.There is some evidence that more weapons are being purchased for protection as well, and this is demonstrated by the increase in applications for Concealed Handgun Permits. I have a permit myself and there are some requirements for the application If you are interested in applying for a Concealed Handgun Permit click here.

Regardless of the permit to conceal your weapon, it is still legal in America to purchase guns for your protection. After recent events there has even been a school district in Texas that has attempted to pass a law that allows Teachers to carry their weapons at school. I am sure with everything that has happened the debate about gun control will continue to be a hot button issue with our Government.

http://myktem.com/gun-sales-soar-in-central-texas/


NRA breaks silence, pledges to help stop massacres

(Reuters) - The National Rifle Association said on Tuesday it wanted to contribute meaningfully to prevent another massacre like the Connecticut shooting, suggesting a sharp change in tone for the largest U.S. gun rights group.

"The National Rifle Association of America is made up of four million moms and dads, sons and daughters - and we were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown," the organization said in a statement.

It said it plans a news conference on Friday after staying silent as a matter of common decency and out of respect for families in Newtown, Connecticut, where a gunman killed 20 children and six adults at a school last Friday.

"The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again," the statement said. An NRA spokesman did not immediately respond when asked to elaborate on what the contributions might entail.

Full Article
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BH18820121218
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Old 2012-12-19, 11:05   Link #779
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Man shot at St. Pete pizza joint had been complaining about slow service

Quote:
ST. PETERSBURG Florida's controversial "stand your ground" law has been cited in hundreds of cases. People have used it to justify shooting, stabbing, killing and maiming would-be intruders, romantic competitors and rival gang members.

And on Sunday, at a pizza joint in St. Petersburg, a man tried to use it as justification for shooting another customer who was yelling at workers because he wasn't getting his order fast enough.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...ervice/1266589
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Old 2012-12-19, 11:18   Link #780
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
My pharmacist wife will be the first to tell you far too many psychotropic drugs are marginal. Many side effects and high risk of inverted results - they absolutely require close monitoring. In other words, they *SHOULD* be administered to someone under hospital care, not as an outpatient.

But thanks to massive cutbacks and dismantlement of the US mental health systems in the 80s, bingo. We gots loose crazies everywhere. And drugs advertised on television that have high risks of the most astonishing side effects.
I'll say it.
It's partially (well , mostly but not entirely) Ronald Reagan's fault.
He is the one who pushed for the defunding of mental health in the 1980s to "save money" and privatize something that should always be under governemnt control/oversight due to the money required to provide this service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
The trouble with these databases is that it can be difficult (or impossible) to get off of them. There's already a huge stigma around people with "mental disorders" (broad term), and this could make things even worse by making it difficult for people to hide their disorder.

However, this made me think of something. In Pennsylvania (and perhaps other states), physicians are required by law to notify the department of transportation if they suspect that a patient of theirs is unfit to drive. What happens next is temporary revocation of the user's driver license. If the user wants to get their license back, they must be re-evaluated by the department of transportation. If they pass, they get their license back; if they don't, then their license remains revoked. While this doesn't prevent anyone from breaking the law and driving without a license, the overall purpose behind such measures is to get unsafe drivers off the road.

As far as I'm aware, there's no similar measure for guns. If a physician hears that a patient of theirs intends to harm someone then they are allowed to break confidentiality and notify the police; however, a patient who just vaguely seems threatening or unstable does not provide grounds for action.

What if a similar system could be put into place? If instability is noted or suspected, the person's firearm permit and registered firearms would be revoked; said person would be able to recover them after submitting to mental evaluation and firearm re-training. It wouldn't be a perfect system for many reasons (young people don't tend to visit the doctor; the rate at which physicians detect suicidal intent is statistically rather poor (~25%), so detection of homicidal intent or suicide/homicide may not be much better; and plenty of tragedies are carried out with unlicensed/unregistered guns), but it might be a start.
A data base of mentally ill people who are violent or on drugs known (and proven) to cause violence should be added to the NICS to prohibit these people from purchasing a firearm.
That's the supply side of the issue.

To deal with guns that would most certainly be obtained illegally, (as in the case of Columbine, and now Newtown) there needs to be an end to the "Gun Free Zones" Act of 1995, armed teachers and/or staff or security inside schools and much more realistic attitude about protecting our children.

Laws on paper don't stop active shooters once they start, only an active defender can do that; be it a police officer, security guard (armed), armed and trained teacher, or school staff.
This is a two prong approach that while not perfect is vastly superior (based on actual incidents) than any ban will ever be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I know if at least one fictional "Utopian" model that still has civilian gun ownership. Star Trek's United Federation of Planets. In various episodes we see that Sulu and Kirk to some extent are gun collectors (Kirk seems in to 18th and 19th century firearms while Sulu is into 20th century pistols). We see civilains with modern or semi-modern weaponry for the time period (in the 2360s we see a civilian shuttle pilot with a 80 year old phaser, and in the 2150s we see a farmer in Oklahoma with a plasma rifle).
Star Wars is another excellent example.
In both the Republic era and the Empire, people have blasters (pistol, rifle, and armed starships).
So if we use fiction as a guide, what Feinstein, Schumer, Bloomberg, and now Obama (should have been more tactful) want to create is a 1984 or Brave New World style society.
History has proven what those kinds of societies are actually like, and the killing/starvation that goes on within them will make school shootings look like nothing.
Democide, murder by government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
People like to compare incidents of violent crime with the same in the UK and other European nations, but the fact of the matter is that "more guns" is not the only difference between the countries.

There are cultural differences. There are differences in available social services. There is the staggering gap between the rich and the poor. There is the thorny issue of healthcare in America, and that includes mental health services.

Blaming guns is easy and passing gun control laws make people feel better, but it doesn't actually fix the problem. It's a band-aid slapped on a gushing head wound--the patient's still going to bleed out and die. But those other problems--socioeconomic issues, healthcare issues, job issues, cultural issues--these are not so easily solved, and politicians cannot make easy promises about them.

It doesn't help that so many in America are too frightened of what they see in the mirror to even think about the actual causes.

Rather than put so much effort and time into a "solution" that won't even solve the problem, why not stop, take a step back, clear the strong emotions from our minds and start looking at the issue rationally?

Edit: I don't buy the "white privilege" argument, either. It seems this crops up every time a white guy is seen doing something reprehensible, and while you won't see me protect any mass murderer, I've got to say that it's completely unfair to paint Caucasians with such broad strokes. The "white privilege" argument always seems to boil down to, "if you are white, you are a racist by default, simply because you are white and privileged." This, in of itself, is racism within an accusation of racism. The argument is so persuasive to some people, especially white people (amusingly enough) because it's something of a self-deprecating "get out of jail free card" that enables a white person to set themselves aside from the "unenlightened" whites.

Note that this is coming from someone who is about as white as they come--my heritage is pretty strongly German with bits and pieces of English thrown in the mix. But I'm hardly "privileged," ostracized from my fundamentalist right-wing religious family for the horrible atrocity of homosexuality and a gender identity that doesn't fit into the strict Christian binary gender concept. My whiteness doesn't protect me or offer me any advantages that my sexuality and gender identity don't cancel out completely--and then some.
Thank you for that Syn.
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