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Old 2013-10-27, 16:15   Link #141
Warm Mist
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Originally Posted by Darigan Xweetok View Post
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Would you consider Waking Life or A Scanner Darkly cartoons? How about Cameron's Avatar? Is it a half-cartoon?
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Old 2013-10-27, 16:52   Link #142
Darigan Xweetok
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Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
Would you consider Waking Life or A Scanner Darkly cartoons? How about Cameron's Avatar? Is it a half-cartoon?
Yes I would. If it is 2D, it CAN be classed as a cartoon. Period. The only reason Avatar ( the movie) isnt a cartoon is because its CGI, not 2D.
Youre only making yourself sound uneducated and further proving my point that Kuroshitsuji is BOTH an anime and a cartoon
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Old 2013-10-27, 19:11   Link #143
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I don't even know what Kuroshitsuji is.

The original, technical usage of 'cartoon' (in modern times) was never related to animation. It referred to the comic strips found on newspapers and such, and was associated with exaggerated, humorous drawings often highlighting a social issue of the moment. The term shifts to animation because of the undeniable influence this artstyle had in early attempts at it (think Felix the Cat and the first B&W Disney shorts). Nowadays the connotation of the word is still related to this approach to design and slapstick, separating it from other animation. This is why you say that an expression or design is 'cartoony' as opposed to realistic.

You are trying to appeal to a technicality that doesn't exist. Language evolves and you should adapt to it if you want to communicate properly; if this didn't happen, the term 'cartoon' wouldn't be associated with animation at all, because it wasn't conceived for it in the first place.
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Old 2013-10-27, 19:11   Link #144
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Originally Posted by Darigan Xweetok View Post
Yes I would. If it is 2D, it CAN be classed as a cartoon. Period. The only reason Avatar ( the movie) isnt a cartoon is because its CGI, not 2D.
Youre only making yourself sound uneducated and further proving my point that Kuroshitsuji is BOTH an anime and a cartoon
From Toy Story to every Pixar CG animations, it still is an animation and can be classified under cartoons...
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Old 2013-10-27, 19:39   Link #145
Darigan Xweetok
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
From Toy Story to every Pixar CG animations, it still is an animation and can be classified under cartoons...
I guess ANYTHING animated can be classed as a cartoon. Even CGI. I usually associate 2D animation with the word " cartoon" though. And Kuroshitsuji is an anime about a midget named Ciel with a starry eye. It is both an anime and a cartoon, like all anime.
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Old 2013-10-27, 21:01   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darigan Xweetok View Post
The only reason Avatar ( the movie) isnt a cartoon is because its CGI, not 2D.
Cameron's Avatar is a borderline case since while a significant portion of the film is animated, most of the "animated" characters' movements are achieved through motion capture technology using real life actors. Cameron himself doesn't consider the film to be a "cartoon", but there are people who do.

At least we can agree on one thing: every anime is a cartoon, since anime by definition are just animated products with a Japanese origin. Some people go out of their way to say that "anime aren't cartoons" just because they're different in mood or direction, which I think is silly.

However, your claim that CGI doesn't make a cartoon is dubious. Do you seriously think that something like Over the Hedge in all its silly cartoony glory is not a cartoon just because it's computer-animated?

What about those Japanese animations that are completely CGI, like Arpeggio of Blue Steel and Rakuen Tsuiho? Do they not count as anime, just because they are CGI?
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Old 2013-10-27, 21:01   Link #147
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Oh no....NOT THIS ARGUMENT TOO ANIMESUKI!

Anime is Japanese for cartoon. So, yes. Anime = cartoons or more approiately, animation.
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Old 2013-10-27, 21:12   Link #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
From Toy Story to every Pixar CG animations, it still is an animation and can be classified under cartoons...
CGI blurs the line a fair bit, in my opinion. Do the following make you think more "cartoon" or more "live-action"?

Spoiler for Image 1:


Spoiler for Image 2:


Spoiler for Image 3:
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Old 2013-10-27, 21:31   Link #149
hyl
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CGI blurs the line a fair bit, in my opinion. Do the following make you think more "cartoon" or more "live-action"?
I am not saying that though but it was to debunk the previous statement that CGI was not a form of "cartoon", which in my interpretation was saying that he denied that CGI is a form of animation
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Old 2013-10-27, 21:39   Link #150
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Well, would you really call Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within a cartoon?

It's entirely CGI. IMDb lists it as "animation". However, this movie is clearly a case of trying to have CGI capture a live-action look as closely as possible (at the time).
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Old 2013-10-27, 23:23   Link #151
Darigan Xweetok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempester View Post
Cameron's Avatar is a borderline case since while a significant portion of the film is animated, most of the "animated" characters' movements are achieved through motion capture technology using real life actors. Cameron himself doesn't consider the film to be a "cartoon", but there are people who do.

At least we can agree on one thing: every anime is a cartoon, since anime by definition are just animated products with a Japanese origin. Some people go out of their way to say that "anime aren't cartoons" just because they're different in mood or direction, which I think is silly.

However, your claim that CGI doesn't make a cartoon is dubious. Do you seriously think that something like Over the Hedge in all its silly cartoony glory is not a cartoon just because it's computer-animated?

What about those Japanese animations that are completely CGI, like Arpeggio of Blue Steel and Rakuen Tsuiho? Do they not count as anime, just because they are CGI?
Finally somebody accepts the facts! When people say " anime is not cartoons" because of the different style, and storylines, I put that down to lack of research, common knowledge, and ignorance. It is nothing but propaganda and pseudo-science. And when people persist with the misguided belief that anime and cartoons are " different" that's just parroting the drivel. Sadly people would rather parrot the otaku propaganda drivel than accept real semantic fact. Yes, I prefer the term " anime" over " cartoon" for Japanese animation, but I do not deny that anime is and always has been a subset of cartoons and that they are not disjoint, whether people like that or not.
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Old 2013-10-28, 02:22   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
CGI blurs the line a fair bit, in my opinion. Do the following make you think more "cartoon" or more "live-action"?

Spoiler for Image 1:


Spoiler for Image 2:


Spoiler for Image 3:
Well y'know, The Fantastic Four started as a comic.

Has anyone seen Who framed Roger Rabbit? How do we classify that?
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Old 2013-11-03, 03:51   Link #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darigan Xweetok View Post
Finally somebody accepts the facts! When people say " anime is not cartoons" because of the different style, and storylines, I put that down to lack of research, common knowledge, and ignorance.
You forgot to put: refusal to lump them together (I still refuse to lump them together)
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Old 2013-11-04, 23:52   Link #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darigan Xweetok View Post
Finally somebody accepts the facts! When people say " anime is not cartoons" because of the different style, and storylines, I put that down to lack of research, common knowledge, and ignorance. It is nothing but propaganda and pseudo-science. And when people persist with the misguided belief that anime and cartoons are " different" that's just parroting the drivel. Sadly people would rather parrot the otaku propaganda drivel than accept real semantic fact. Yes, I prefer the term " anime" over " cartoon" for Japanese animation, but I do not deny that anime is and always has been a subset of cartoons and that they are not disjoint, whether people like that or not.
I disagree, but I've never equated "cartoon" with "hand-animated work". I've equated cartoon more with the comic strip-influenced shorts from early Disney, Tex Avery and stuff that has evolved along similar lines; things that have a very distinct method of working and a fairly similar tone. For example, I'd say Lupin III (1971) is a "cartoon", but I'd not say Ghost in the Shell (1995) is a cartoon.

I'm not trying to state facts about the meaning of certain terms. I just think 'cartoon' has a more specific connotation than just "something that is animated", when said in casual conversation. Of course in any serious analysis about different approaches to animation I wouldn't like to see (or use) any of these loaded terms like 'cartoon' or 'anime'. 'Animation' is good and clear-cut.
As I said before, you're here to 'enlighten' people with facts that aren't really correct or precise, because if we wanted to be anal about semantics, we would eradicate nebulous terms like cartoon.
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Old 2013-11-05, 23:44   Link #155
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Whether it's right or wrong, I tend to agree that "animation" can be perceived as the more generic term, with "cartoon" leaning more towards "Western-style animation" and "anime" leaning more towards "Japanese animation". But when it comes right down to it, you could probably make an argument that, within the given culture, each is just a colloquial term for animation, so in the West all animation might be considered cartoons, and in Japan all animation is anime (all the Disney/Pixar movies are listed on Amazon JP under "Kids Anime/Movies"). There's probably legitimacy there, but it also renders the terms a bit meaningless for regular conversation.

In the end, though, you can get so wrapped up in arguments about terms, and it really leads nowhere.
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Old 2013-11-10, 12:45   Link #156
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my personal interpretation on all this is that Japan never has had anything
like an equivalent to U.S. HOLLYWOOD. they have comparatively little capacity
for producing live-action cinema anything at all like the technical quality
of U.S. motion picture productions. as such, Japan refined and developed Animation
to take the place of this cultural shortcoming, refining the medium along the way
into it's own unique work of art.

further, the Japanese style of storytelling seems to lend itself part and parcel
to the animation medium. you take a look at 90% or more of what Japan
has produced in the last 50 years in terms of live-action films;
you'll be guaranteed to see storytelling that just does not seem to work well
in the live-action medium. more often than not, such storytelling functions
to great effect in animation, but almost invariably makes for strong B at best
couched in a live-action medium.

moreover, physical space is also a major hindrance towards domestic Japanese live-action film productions,
something infinitely more manageable with animation.

in sum, the way i personally see it, "Anime" is, was always meant to be,
and is most likely to remain Japan's preeminent Audio/Visual storytelling medium
for the various reasons cited above. their own "HOLLYWOOD"
for better or worse.

no one singular nation on earth is master of everything,
but some are especially talented in specific areas, whilst others sometimes less so.
"Comics" and "Animation" is something Japan just so happens to be especially talented at, by necessity,
at least in the industry's early days...
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Old 2013-11-10, 14:09   Link #157
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Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Japanese animation produces prettier girls -- and more of them. For every 1 pretty animated character from American studios, there are 1000 from Japan.

Amen, Brother...
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Old 2013-11-10, 23:13   Link #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasuke Shichiri View Post
my personal interpretation on all this is that Japan never has had anything
like an equivalent to U.S. HOLLYWOOD. they have comparatively little capacity
for producing live-action cinema anything at all like the technical quality
of U.S. motion picture productions. as such, Japan refined and developed Animation
to take the place of this cultural shortcoming, refining the medium along the way
into it's own unique work of art.
If it were true, that would be interesting, but that's not really a factual portrayal of the status of anime in Japan. Apart from Studio Ghibli and various exceptions over the years, most anime produced in Japan either targets the youth market or targets subcultures that are not considered mainstream. Claiming anime is Japan's "preeminent Audio/Visual storytelling medium" is an extreme stretch considering reality.
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Old 2013-11-11, 00:27   Link #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasuke Shichiri View Post
further, the Japanese style of storytelling seems to lend itself part and parcel
to the animation medium. you take a look at 90% or more of what Japan
has produced in the last 50 years in terms of live-action films;
you'll be guaranteed to see storytelling that just does not seem to work well
in the live-action medium. more often than not, such storytelling functions
to great effect in animation, but almost invariably makes for strong B at best
couched in a live-action medium.
Kurosawa Akira was one of the best film directors ever. No anime comes anywhere near his best works. To say that Japanese cinema would work better as anime is far from the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tasuke Shichiri View Post
in sum, the way i personally see it, "Anime" is, was always meant to be,
and is most likely to remain Japan's preeminent Audio/Visual storytelling medium
for the various reasons cited above. their own "HOLLYWOOD"
for better or worse.

no one singular nation on earth is master of everything,
but some are especially talented in specific areas, whilst others sometimes less so.
"Comics" and "Animation" is something Japan just so happens to be especially talented at, by necessity,
at least in the industry's early days...
I think that a better way to state this is "Anime is the preeminent cultural export of Japan". Many countries try to increase their prestige by spreading their culture to other countries.

The U.S. has been the most successful at this with their films, TV, music and so on. Japan used to be quite strong at all of these: their works were copied and spread throughout most of Asia in the '50s to ''80s. They even had a fair bit of influence in Western countries.

The strength of this influence has fallen off quite a lot, and the places where they were successful are better at it now than Japan is. Anime and manga are distinct exceptions although I think that Korea is catching up strongly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
If it were true, that would be interesting, but that's not really a factual portrayal of the status of anime in Japan. Apart from Studio Ghibli and various exceptions over the years, most anime produced in Japan either targets the youth market or targets subcultures that are not considered mainstream. Claiming anime is Japan's "preeminent Audio/Visual storytelling medium" is an extreme stretch considering reality.
A work can still be very influential even if it isn't mainstream. This is especially true of exports as almost everything in this category will only appeal to a narrow audience. As it stands, anime is pretty unique to Japan and it does speak to the rest of the world.
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Old 2013-11-11, 08:09   Link #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
A work can still be very influential even if it isn't mainstream. This is especially true of exports as almost everything in this category will only appeal to a narrow audience. As it stands, anime is pretty unique to Japan and it does speak to the rest of the world.
I would say you could make the argument a little more realistically for manga, which has greater reach, wider demographics, and greater influence.
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