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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 05
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 35 22.88%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 41 26.80%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 29 18.95%
7 out of 10 : Good... 30 19.61%
6 out of 10 : Average... 8 5.23%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 2 1.31%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 4 2.61%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 1 0.65%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 2 1.31%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 1 0.65%
Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-06, 00:01   Link #221
Xaturas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Why in the world would you ignore ganking? Ganking is the whole point. Sleep-PKers obviously aren't interested in a fair match.
Ganking was shown in last ep.
You can't gank someone in duel, its duel not whack a mole, you can't go duel 1 vs party. Sleep kills are most likely done on some retards who are around killers lvl and stupid enough to get exploited that way. Normal pk would simply kill ppl in the field by ganking someone 1vs1 or 1vs many (if he out skilled or outleveled/outgeared them), as I mostly did in my mmorpgs days.
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Old 2012-08-06, 00:05   Link #222
Clarste
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Originally Posted by supermegasonic View Post
how would we, the anime watchers know that? we never saw them once interact after that episode. sounds like something you would know if you read the LN
The anime doesn't show lots of things. You could consider it a flaw, but that's how it is. The fact is that they're telling you right now that Asuna is still an active part of the clearing group, and so is Kirito. Thinking back to episode 2, it seems they have meetings before fighting bosses, and both Kirito and Asuna were invited to that one. So... the obvious answer is that they just kept doing that exact same thing for 50+ floors. And therefore they meet at least once a floor. But apparently don't hang out together between bosses. Which makes them basically the same relationship as "classmates" or something along those lines. That's just what you can infer from this episode.

Honestly, it's not even like they interacted much on floor 1 in the first place. He gave her some bread, they talked a bit, and he told her how to find people's names on the UI. So I'm not sure how interesting a reunion could possibly be. "Oh hey, it's you again."
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Old 2012-08-06, 00:06   Link #223
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaturas View Post
Ganking was shown in last ep.
You can't gank someone in duel, its duel not whack a mole, you can't go duel 1 vs party. Sleep kills are most likely done on some retards who are around killers lvl and stupid enough to get exploited that way. Normal pk would simply kill ppl in the field by ganking someone 1vs1 or 1vs many (if he out skilled or outleveled/outgeared them), as I mostly did in my mmorpgs days.
The point of Sleep-PKing isn't to target people you can't beat in a fair fight, it's to target people who are hiding inside town, as a way of circumventing the invincibility the game gives them. You seem to be missing the point entirely. Like, 100%. Please watch the episode again and read the dialog.

Someone, somewhere, wanted to kill someone who never left town and figured out a way how. People who don't leave town are low level, because they aren't leaving town. This isn't rocket science.
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Old 2012-08-06, 00:10   Link #224
Divini
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermegasonic View Post
how would we, the anime watchers know that? we never saw them once interact after that episode. sounds like something you would know if you read the LN
To be fair, reading the LN gives you the same feeling.
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Old 2012-08-06, 00:26   Link #225
styr
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Originally Posted by supermegasonic View Post
how would we, the anime watchers know that? we never saw them once interact after that episode. sounds like something you would know if you read the LN
Doing math is not limited to LN readers only. The anime has shown us that Kirito and Asuna both attend boss meetings and fight the boss together.

Dec 7 2022 - Mar 6 2024 is roughly 450 days. That end date was the beginning of episode 5 during the 56th floor boss meeting. Excluding the first floor, which took over a month to clear and floor 1 clear date is the start date, 450/54 = ~8.33 average days spent per floor.
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Old 2012-08-06, 00:51   Link #226
GhostShogun
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Or it just wasn't a problem in beta, because no one sleeps in-game, and they didn't bother to do anything about it when there weren't any complaints. There are other ways to get people to stop touching you (anti-harassment features) but they only work when you're awake. Because who in the world would sleep in a game? It's just not something they tested enough, therefore it's an exploit.
Perhaps I'm just assuming that the game would have programmers who would use the more efficient way of having players access their menus. Instead of direct input from the player they made it so the player moves the avatar which then accesses the menu. That's a pretty unprofessional way of programming your controls.

But overall the game just reeks of amateurish design so perhaps it makes sense in the author's story universe.
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Old 2012-08-06, 01:05   Link #227
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by GhostShogun View Post
Perhaps I'm just assuming that the game would have programmers who would use the more efficient way of having players access their menus. Instead of direct input from the player they made it so the player moves the avatar which then accesses the menu. That's a pretty unprofessional way of programming your controls.

But overall the game just reeks of amateurish design so perhaps it makes sense in the author's story universe.
Hard to say what is or isn't doable with a fictitious technology. All we've seen is that it can intercept motion, and give feedback to the senses. We haven't seen anything about actual thoughts.
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Old 2012-08-06, 01:12   Link #228
Sute443
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Originally Posted by GhostShogun View Post
Perhaps I'm just assuming that the game would have programmers who would use the more efficient way of having players access their menus. Instead of direct input from the player they made it so the player moves the avatar which then accesses the menu. That's a pretty unprofessional way of programming your controls.
How is it inefficient? Sword Art Online was meant to be a completely immersive experience, and I don't see how there could be another way to manipulate in-game menus without breaking immersion. Remember, the players feel like their avatar bodies are their bodies, so it doesn't feel unnatural to them.
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Old 2012-08-06, 01:40   Link #229
GhostShogun
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
How is it inefficient? Sword Art Online was meant to be a completely immersive experience, and I don't see how there could be another way to manipulate in-game menus without breaking immersion. Remember, the players feel like their avatar bodies are their bodies, so it doesn't feel unnatural to them.
It's inefficient or at least incompetently programmed because accessing the player's menu can be done without the player intending to do it. Player intends to make the menu gesture and the menu opens. It's direct. What happens in SO is indirect. The player intends to make the menu gesture, which moves the player's avatar. Then game game reads that the menu gesture is performed by the avatar and opens the menu. It's not the player's intent which triggers the menu, it's the avatar's movement from any source.
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Old 2012-08-06, 01:43   Link #230
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by supermegasonic View Post
how would we, the anime watchers know that? we never saw them once interact after that episode. sounds like something you would know if you read the LN
I think even what the others have said is just inference. We see in this episode that their relationship is being described as always at odds with each other, so it does imply that they've been interacting regularly. I think the issue is that Kirito is primarily a solo player, so the past few episodes we haven't seen him interact with Asuna (because his travels took him elsewhere). So here in this episode it seems like a "reunion", but it really isn't from his perspective. We're just left to assume that they've crossed paths from time-to-time in the meantime (and she is a major leader in one of the key guilds clearing the top floors, which we do know he has been involved in). So yeah, I realize that this is the point that you were a bit annoyed by, but I guess the takeaway is (as was implied in one of the earlier posts) that Asuna didn't really define his game experience (to the point that he'd bring it up unnecessarily), perhaps until this incident (which is why they're showing it).


Anyway, that aside, I am just wondering... do we need a thread about "Theories and Facts regarding the SAO game mechanics"? I think all the back and forth about the merits of the Sleep-PK system are interesting, but probably go beyond the scope of this episode strictly-speaking. If someone thinks such a thread would be helpful, please feel free to propose it (along with a draft of the opening post) in the request thread.
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Old 2012-08-06, 01:46   Link #231
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostShogun View Post
It's inefficient or at least incompetently programmed because accessing the player's menu can be done without the player intending to do it. Player intends to make the menu gesture and the menu opens. It's direct. What happens in SO is indirect. The player intends to make the menu gesture, which moves the player's avatar. Then game game reads that the menu gesture is performed by the avatar and opens the menu. It's not the player's intent which triggers the menu, it's the avatar's movement from any source.
The system can't read "intent". I understand your point about the menu only accepting motions ordered by the player, but the simple fact is that the machine can only interpret signals to move your body. So even if it had some kind of feature to lock out other people from using your menu through your avatar's body, the player would still need to control the menu with their avatar.
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Old 2012-08-06, 02:28   Link #232
molitar
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I had to vote this one bad. I'm sorry but I'm so fed up with the horrible Hollywood cliche.. She sitting at an open window when she has to be an obvious target... How more Hollywood can you get.. You knew she was going to be killed.

Now onto the murderers in the game.. it's not even PvP as now it's really killing humans.. So you got a world where it's suppose to be humans vs the mob to win there life and you have twisted demented sicko's that take it I can murder with impunity. If and when the game is over everyone of them better be made accountable and go to prison for murder.

Now off that topic and onto common sense. If something was to happen like this in real life and the key to stop it was the game had to be won.. you would think they would modify NERV gear themselves so they are not dangerous and send in crack troops into the game itself.. either hacking or logging in.. and than organize and protect the hostages and clear the floors. All the worlds governments I can not see anyway to prevent something like this no matter how intelligent the psycho developer was after all the governments always have technology the rest of the world does not have so the psycho developer could not protect against everything! The story just has so many flaws outside of the game world.

Last edited by molitar; 2012-08-06 at 02:48.
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Old 2012-08-06, 04:42   Link #233
styr
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Originally Posted by molitar View Post
I had to vote this one bad. I'm sorry but I'm so fed up with the horrible Hollywood cliche.. She sitting at an open window when she has to be an obvious target... How more Hollywood can you get.. You knew she was going to be killed.

Now onto the murderers in the game.. it's not even PvP as now it's really killing humans.. So you got a world where it's suppose to be humans vs the mob to win there life and you have twisted demented sicko's that take it I can murder with impunity. If and when the game is over everyone of them better be made accountable and go to prison for murder.

Now off that topic and onto common sense. If something was to happen like this in real life and the key to stop it was the game had to be won.. you would think they would modify NERV gear themselves so they are not dangerous and send in crack troops into the game itself.. either hacking or logging in.. and than organize and protect the hostages and clear the floors. All the worlds governments I can not see anyway to prevent something like this no matter how intelligent the psycho developer was after all the governments always have technology the rest of the world does not have so the psycho developer could not protect against everything! The story just has so many flaws outside of the game world.
SAO "supposedly" doesn't have a combat log or chat log (seriously.. wtf), so murders are a bit of a grey area. Often murders are committed in self defense, or if a mugging goes bad, or perhaps a dispute in the field over dropped loot, and lastly by nefarious means. Sleep PK is but one such nasty way, another method is called MPK. The anime has skipped all the MPK parts of the story so I'll spoiler this next part.

Spoiler for Vol 8 / RNR spoilers about MPK:
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Old 2012-08-06, 05:13   Link #234
Esebian
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
The system can't read "intent". I understand your point about the menu only accepting motions ordered by the player, but the simple fact is that the machine can only interpret signals to move your body. So even if it had some kind of feature to lock out other people from using your menu through your avatar's body, the player would still need to control the menu with their avatar.
That's exactly the point, also pls think about reading "intent": how should that be possible? How should the game knew that you intendet to open the menu? For that to be possible it firstly would have to read your mind, that's not something the Nerv Gear can do, and secondly the game would have to decode your thoughts in actual commands, if you have ever tried to program a bottom-up AI you know that that would mean years of programming if you don't want that the player has to memorise all thought-commands word for word.

Also the thought-reading would have another major disadvantage, that would be even bigger that the one now: the moment you sleep, you'll start dreaming and if your thoughts would be made in actual commands you can easily see where this would go
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Old 2012-08-06, 07:40   Link #235
styr
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The hand motion to bring up the menu isn't something you would do very often, either. You touch your index and thumb together (possibly similar to the American "A-ok" hand gesture, you can find it on wikipedia if you've never seen it) with your right hand slightly in front of you and flick downwards. We haven't actually seen what it looks like close up so their fingers might be flat against each other and not in a circular shape like I suggested. Both ways however require you to do a very specific motion with fingers that would be hard to accidentally perform.

Here's a quote from early on in Vol 1:

Spoiler for Vol 1 Ch 2 main menu window:


It makes me wonder if SAO had a "left handed mode" or not. If it did have a left handed mode, did it affect anything serious, like which hand your weapon was held in? Maybe instead of an in-game option for lefties you had to select the option when calibrating NerveGear?



Does anybody know who voiced Yoruko? I couldn't find any info about her name on MAL/wiki but maybe someone has seen it.

Last edited by styr; 2012-08-06 at 09:54. Reason: bit about Yoruko
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Old 2012-08-06, 09:59   Link #236
Esebian
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@styr Yoruko is voiced by Nozomi YAMAMOTO
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Old 2012-08-06, 10:11   Link #237
Starlightz
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Originally Posted by styr View Post
It makes me wonder if SAO had a "left handed mode" or not. If it did have a left handed mode, did it affect anything serious, like which hand your weapon was held in? Maybe instead of an in-game option for lefties you had to select the option when calibrating NerveGear?
Anything that works with right hand probably works the same with left hand. I don't think the game is even in "right handed mode" by default.
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Old 2012-08-06, 10:24   Link #238
Clarste
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In the episode Kirito tried to stab himself while holding the spear in his left hand, so clearly the game lets you use weapons without a hand bias.
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Old 2012-08-06, 10:29   Link #239
Minoye
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I'm pretty sure some MMO have an option to automatically deny a duel (and also party invite, whispers, etc..).
Main purpose was to avoid harassement, but this could be a way to counter sleep PK.
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Old 2012-08-06, 11:17   Link #240
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Or it just wasn't a problem in beta, because no one sleeps in-game, and they didn't bother to do anything about it when there weren't any complaints. There are other ways to get people to stop touching you (anti-harassment features) but they only work when you're awake. Because who in the world would sleep in a game? It's just not something they tested enough, therefore it's an exploit.
Anyone who thinks that a game developer can magically think of every possible bizarro combination of things a user will try ahead of time, or that all of the things they do think of will get fixed before the first release, has obviously never worked on a big software project.

At my workplace, a problem like this would have been classified as "Priority 5 - Unlikely set of steps to reproduce" and promptly buried under a mountain of other issues that were actually worthwhile to fix.
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