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Old 2013-05-11, 13:49   Link #1661
Hemisphere
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Wow, I'm slow.

I finally realized what Iskatar was referring to, with the kanjis alongside the names like Arifaal's and stuff. Yeah, Muma's isn't revealed yet, so it'll probably be in Volume 7 once Kawaguchi Tsukasa has thought up one for it. Reread certain bits of Volume 6 once I realized what you were referring to, and Muma's name never came up as furigana with kanjis accompanying it (at least in the sections I read, which were Olga's identity reveal, their assault on Der Douchebag's palace, and the fight with the pedodemon).

Really hoping that the Viralts are sentient dragons in weapon form just like Horpe, seeing as they display the same abilities: elemental affinities, able to change their composition and structure to a certain degree (though it varies from Viralt to Viralt), shows a certain degree of sentience (like showing affection to their wielder, being able to pick their bearer, etc.). This way, they tie in nicely with the author's established concepts in his two other works (even if they're published by two different companies, seeing connections and consistency between them would be an awesome treat).

I'm certain that the Viralts aren't God-affiliated weapons like Tir na Fa's bow, seeing as the murals that were discussed in Volume 5 (regarding what the goddesses were bearing as gifts to the three-headed dragon as peace offerings) would not match up along with their backstory (tied in with the founding of Zhcted). I wanted to use the term God-bestowed, but Durandal fits that category more, and according to Ganlon (plus the whole dragon chains incident), Durandal isn't that special compared to Tir na Fa's bow. Plus Tir na Fa's associated with a bow in that temple of hers, so I found affiliated as a more fitting term than bestowed.
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Old 2013-05-11, 13:57   Link #1662
BassGSnewtype
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Just out of curiosity, what are the names of the other Viralts?
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Old 2013-05-11, 14:09   Link #1663
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I don't know what their translations are, someone can probably put them up after this, but their JP names are as follows:

アリファール
Elen's long sword; manipulates the wind.
ラヴィアス
Lyudmila's spear; manipulates ice; can change its handle length.
ザート
Sofiya's staff; manipulates light.
バルグレン
Sasha's twin swords; manipulates fire.
ヴァリツァイフ
Elizaveta's whip; manipulates electricity; fun with tasers!
メザンティス
Valentina's scythe; manipulates darkness.
ムマ
Olga's axe; manipulates earth; can change its dimensions such as length, blade size, etc.

Too sleepy to take the books out of the shelf and look up their kanji names (not their alternate titles like 「〇〇の〇〇」), if they even have kanji names; yep, I'm still confused, and would really like some clarification and corrections at this point.
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Old 2013-05-11, 14:26   Link #1664
sasuke706
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The Japanese Wikipedia has a good list and descriptions of the series' terminology as well. Baka-Tsuki also has a terminology page with the current translations (with original Japanese) of the character names, countries, weapons, among othersócan't say I agree with a good chunk of the translations, though.
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Old 2013-05-11, 14:36   Link #1665
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Originally Posted by sasuke706 View Post
The Japanese Wikipedia has a good list and descriptions of the series' terminology as well. Baka-Tsuki also has a terminology page with the current translations (with original Japanese) of the character names, countries, weapons, among othersócan't say I agree with a good chunk of the translations, though.
Maybe you ought to compile a list of the ones you disagree with and give a detailed explanation as to why it doesn't sit well?
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Old 2013-05-11, 14:52   Link #1666
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Maybe you ought to compile a list of the ones you disagree with and give a detailed explanation as to why it doesn't sit well?
When I started doing that in the B-T forums, the only reply I got back was 'I don't like those names because they look weird'. And that was just me pointing out the Vanadis' names are Russian.
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Old 2013-05-11, 16:49   Link #1667
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Originally Posted by sasuke706 View Post
When I started doing that in the B-T forums, the only reply I got back was 'I don't like those names because they look weird'. And that was just me pointing out the Vanadis' names are Russian.
They're more distinctly Slavic rather than strictly Russian, I think, since that's where the origins lie. Basically my problem with the official spellings is that their usage of 'y' in names doesn't quite match up to how most of the English-speaking world use it, despite the etymology of the name.
For example, in the first Ar Tonelico the official spelling for one of the characters is 'Syureria'. Now that's just weird, right? But it's the official spelling. In any case, it's because of how weird it sounded in the English world that it's no wonder NISA localized it to 'Shurelia' since that's how it's actually pronounced, rather than "s-yoo-reh-ria'.

In Madan no Ou's case it's a bit more complicated since their names are actually taken from the real world. Our minds are wired to pronounce words and names based on how often we see and hear the letters used on a common-day basis. Honestly, if I didn't know any better, I'd never think to pronounce 'Lyudmila' as lyood-MEE-lah or 'Sofya' as 'sah-FEE-yah'. I would just automatically assume l-uhd-MEE-lah and 'Sof-ya'.
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Old 2013-05-11, 18:05   Link #1668
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Originally Posted by Iskatar View Post
They're more distinctly Slavic rather than strictly Russian, I think, since that's where the origins lie. Basically my problem with the official spellings is that their usage of 'y' in names doesn't quite match up to how most of the English-speaking world use it, despite the etymology of the name.
For example, in the first Ar Tonelico the official spelling for one of the characters is 'Syureria'. Now that's just weird, right? But it's the official spelling. In any case, it's because of how weird it sounded in the English world that it's no wonder NISA localized it to 'Shurelia' since that's how it's actually pronounced, rather than "s-yoo-reh-ria'.

In Madan no Ou's case it's a bit more complicated since their names are actually taken from the real world. Our minds are wired to pronounce words and names based on how often we see and hear the letters used on a common-day basis. Honestly, if I didn't know any better, I'd never think to pronounce 'Lyudmila' as lyood-MEE-lah or 'Sofya' as 'sah-FEE-yah'. I would just automatically assume l-uhd-MEE-lah and 'Sof-ya'.
I can actually link real life examples for pretty much all the Vanadis' names, with them all being Russian (which fits the author's romanization, showing he does some research). If anything, I can't even find the base Slavic names if any, hence why I use the word Russian since I can find exact Russian equivalents.

As for the Ar Tenelico one, the 'official' romanization is just them thinking they know how to romanize using the commonly used equivalents (which are terrible), hence why the actual localization did Shurelia. If the actual romanizations were bastardizations, I would be all for correcting them.

As for the Russian naming, I don't usually have that problem. I'm a native English speaker, so I'm not sure why I'm used to Russian names (too many books?), but if I'm unsure I'll just look it up. I just figured the author wanted the foreign countries to feel like foreign counties, hence why he went with the naming scheme he did (not sure how this came off to the average Japanese reader, though). My only real issue with the current names is it feels like Zhcted is made up from several countries. Compare it to seeing a town with names like: John, Christine, Ryan, Elizaveta, Robert. Now one of those names blatantly doesn't fit the area, which is how the current translations come off to me. This is even a trope with more (hilarious) examples.

One common thing that bothers me in light novels is combining Japanese with foreign names (or terminology), and unless they make an effort to explain, I just stay annoyed at it. It's also why I avoid using Japanese honorifics in fantasy settings unless it takes place in Japan (or a reimagining of it) or has a surplus of obviously intended Japanese characters.

I actually quite like discussing name origin and translation, so I'm all for directing this thread in another direction.
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Old 2013-05-11, 21:42   Link #1669
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Originally Posted by sasuke706 View Post
I can actually link real life examples for pretty much all the Vanadis' names, with them all being Russian (which fits the author's romanization, showing he does some research). If anything, I can't even find the base Slavic names if any, hence why I use the word Russian since I can find exact Russian equivalents.

As for the Ar Tenelico one, the 'official' romanization is just them thinking they know how to romanize using the commonly used equivalents (which are terrible), hence why the actual localization did Shurelia. If the actual romanizations were bastardizations, I would be all for correcting them.

As for the Russian naming, I don't usually have that problem. I'm a native English speaker, so I'm not sure why I'm used to Russian names (too many books?), but if I'm unsure I'll just look it up. I just figured the author wanted the foreign countries to feel like foreign counties, hence why he went with the naming scheme he did (not sure how this came off to the average Japanese reader, though). My only real issue with the current names is it feels like Zhcted is made up from several countries. Compare it to seeing a town with names like: John, Christine, Ryan, Elizaveta, Robert. Now one of those names blatantly doesn't fit the area, which is how the current translations come off to me. This is even a trope with more (hilarious) examples.

One common thing that bothers me in light novels is combining Japanese with foreign names (or terminology), and unless they make an effort to explain, I just stay annoyed at it. It's also why I avoid using Japanese honorifics in fantasy settings unless it takes place in Japan (or a reimagining of it) or has a surplus of obviously intended Japanese characters.

I actually quite like discussing name origin and translation, so I'm all for directing this thread in another direction.
I think it's more that the more you're exposed to different languages, the more you pick up the verbal nuances. Furthermore, a lot of the languages share the same root, like how the romantic languages share Latin. It's not that unusual, though I think books may have helped some.
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Old 2013-05-11, 21:54   Link #1670
Hemisphere
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Yeah, I actually just look stuff up from the JP wiki whenever I'm too sleepy/bored/lazy. Which is a lot.

Mmmm, name etymology discussions. Do go on!

If you don't mind, can you post your list of names as well as explanations in here? I'm quite intrigued to see them.
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Old 2013-05-11, 22:54   Link #1671
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Originally Posted by Hemisphere View Post
Yeah, I actually just look stuff up from the JP wiki whenever I'm too sleepy/bored/lazy. Which is a lot.

Mmmm, name etymology discussions. Do go on!

If you don't mind, can you post your list of names as well as explanations in here? I'm quite intrigued to see them.
I think they really ought to be left way Axiom romanized them, for the most part. Mainly because they're nice and easy to say. Well, except for 'Ludmira'. That ought to be 'Ludmila' or 'Ludmilla' to be closer to the official spelling. Like I (think) I said on the B-T forums, all nominated spellings are valid.

As for 'Elizaveta', it's really up in the air, depending on whether it's pronounced with a 'veh-ta' or a 'ee-tah'.
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Old 2013-05-11, 23:01   Link #1672
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Nah, I'm not debating the accuracy or consistency of the translations or whatnot. I'm just really intrigued as to their Russian etymologies, on a personal level.
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Old 2013-05-11, 23:18   Link #1673
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Nah, I'm not debating the accuracy or consistency of the translations or whatnot. I'm just really intrigued as to their Russian etymologies, on a personal level.
Oh. In that case, all of it's readily available on the net. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludmila_%28given_name%29 According to this and its referenced Behind the Names page, 'Ludmila' came first in the 10th century and 'Lyudmila' came later. At least, that's how I interpret it. That's why I'm a little unsure about her name.
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Old 2013-05-12, 01:14   Link #1674
sasuke706
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Originally Posted by Hemisphere View Post
Yeah, I actually just look stuff up from the JP wiki whenever I'm too sleepy/bored/lazy. Which is a lot.

Mmmm, name etymology discussions. Do go on!

If you don't mind, can you post your list of names as well as explanations in here? I'm quite intrigued to see them.
Sure, why not. I tend to 'explain' by providing real examples (since I'm terrible at finding name origins)
Eleanora Viltalya (Went with Viltalya since that actually shows up on a few Russian sites via Google. Russian names are also more likely to end in lia/lya than ria/rya.)
Lyudmila Luriye
Sofya Obertas
Alexandra/Aleksandra (Aleksandra seems to date further back, and I think it would fit the setting more) "Sasha" Arshavin
Elizaveta Fomina
Valentina Glinka Estes
Olga Tamm
Vol. 6 Illustration for reference.

I haven't looked into the other names yet, but I noticed off the bat that Limlisha can't be gotten from リムアリーシャ as it ignores an entire letter, and Teita can't be gotten from ティッタ (where it should be Titta).
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Old 2013-05-12, 01:46   Link #1675
Hemisphere
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You call that terrible? Sir, I applaud your efforts. Seeing as the author only gives out romaji samples on a first-name basis, I'll be using these ones in my head now.

Sincerely speaking, these are a real treat.

Funny enough, I just realized now that it's Sofya and not Sofiya. Ha ha ha *clobbers self senseless*.

Out of curiosity, would you happen to have one for Viktor (and his long-ass slew of titles)?
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:55   Link #1676
sasuke706
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You mean that title that's been used a whole once? I've completely forgotten his name was anything other than Viktor and the Japanese wiki doesn't even bother with it.

ヴィクトール=アルトゥール=ヴォルク=エステス=ツァー=ジスタート
Viktor Artur Volk Estes Tsar Zhcted
Ironically, I confirmed Rurik's even though I wasn't looking for his. So yeah, seeing as the context is spot on, author does his damn research. As Zhcted is the only thing I can find literally nothing but Madan no Ou stuff on, I imagine he made the name up since original countries and all.

And I meant terrible for like the origins the current Russian names are based off of. Like how I think Aleksandra is an base form of Alexandra, I imagine the others have similar older spellings that I've passed up.
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Old 2013-05-12, 03:00   Link #1677
Hemisphere
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Upvotes! Upvotes for this ma-waitaminute. Seriously, awesome effort, very, very much. All this stuff just helps add a feeling of consistency and authenticity in my head now whenever I think back to this series. Once I'm done playing tag with my backlog, these are going to make my reading so much more entertaining.

On another curious note, how do you find the names of the various territories, those in Zhcted as well as non-Zhcted? I imagine those to be the bigger headaches.
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Old 2013-05-12, 03:05   Link #1678
Iskatar
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Originally Posted by sasuke706 View Post
Sure, why not. I tend to 'explain' by providing real examples (since I'm terrible at finding name origins)
Eleanora Viltalya (Went with Viltalya since that actually shows up on a few Russian sites via Google. Russian names are also more likely to end in lia/lya than ria/rya.)
Lyudmila Luriye
Sofya Obertas
Alexandra/Aleksandra (Aleksandra seems to date further back, and I think it would fit the setting more) "Sasha" Arshavin
Elizaveta Fomina
Valentina Glinka Estes
Olga Tamm
Vol. 6 Illustration for reference.

I haven't looked into the other names yet, but I noticed off the bat that Limlisha can't be gotten from リムアリーシャ as it ignores an entire letter, and Teita can't be gotten from ティッタ (where it should be Titta).
Why would you use Lurye instead of Lurie? Lurie's equally suitable as it's also Russian. Yeah, see. I'm for the more localized variant of the name for the more English tongue where you don't see the 'y' used a lot in the middle of a bunch of letters. You, I think, would rather have people who don't know better pronounce the names as "sof-yah", "l-yuhd-mee-la', and so forth. While the spelling may be "proper" it would consistently get mispronounced until corrected. However, it would still get mispronounced due to the "wrong" way of saying it sticking due to the difference in language structure rules. It kind of annoys me that I don't really understand your viewpoint. Also, yeah. If you romanize ティッタ you can actually get 'Teitta'.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemisphere View Post
Upvotes! Upvotes for this ma-waitaminute. Seriously, awesome effort, very, very much. All this stuff just helps add a feeling of consistency and authenticity in my head now whenever I think back to this series. Once I'm done playing tag with my backlog, these are going to make my reading so much more entertaining.

On another curious note, how do you find the names of the various territories, those in Zhcted as well as non-Zhcted? I imagine those to be the bigger headaches.
I'm absolutely positive those are made up. What we use is what's on the map, though in the case of the more Eastern territories the names aren't shown.

Last edited by Iskatar; 2013-05-12 at 03:19.
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Old 2013-05-12, 03:13   Link #1679
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@sasuke706 -- UPVOTES! Have all my upvotes...!?

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Old 2013-05-12, 03:24   Link #1680
sasuke706
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On another curious note, how do you find the names of the various territories, those in Zhcted as well as non-Zhcted? I imagine those to be the bigger headaches.
Behold the mighty map. Like I said, I actually haven't tried too hard to find most of the names or terminology bases since no one's ever seemed to care before. If I come across territory not on the map, that could be an adventure in itself.

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Why would you use Lurye instead of Lurie? Lurie's equally suitable as it's also Russian. While the spelling may be "proper" it would consistently get mispronounced until corrected. However, it would still get mispronounced due to the "wrong" way of saying it sticking due to the difference in language structure rules. Also, yeah. If you romanize ティッタ you can actually get 'Teitta'.
Is Lurie Russian? I see it mostly with American names, and Luriye is exclusively Russian (or at least Slavic). Also, ティッタ ≠ テイッタ. And you'd be surprised how many things get mispronounced regardless; most people in the manga/anime community still can't pronounce much of anything well from Japanese. It's kind of the same as hearing Engrish in an anime. It looks exotic, so people like it, even if they never know they pronounce it horribly, horribly wrong. Kind of reminds me Beethoven's For Elise.
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