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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 06
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 21 15.22%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 28 20.29%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 42 30.43%
7 out of 10 : Good... 24 17.39%
6 out of 10 : Average... 13 9.42%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 4 2.90%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 3 2.17%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 3 2.17%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-16, 02:16   Link #241
Iron Maw
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
The lack of show, don't tell is apparent:
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Klein
"I'm a solo player" -> joins a guild
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Silica
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Asuna
(Trust me, he really is a solo player!)
His soloing is nearly all off-screen.
Not that I disagree with your general point, but this doesn't count, Kirito didn't start donning the whole lonewolf motif till episode 2.
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Old 2012-08-16, 02:42   Link #242
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Not that I disagree with your general point, but this doesn't count, Kirito didn't start donning the whole lonewolf motif till episode 2.
Well, episode 1 established Kirito preferred soloing, since he had no friends at the start of the game, he's running along by himself (compared to everyone else socializing), his hesitation on meeting Klein's friends.
That doesn't mean he's not approachable, since he was ok with partying with Klein (plus everyone else).
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Old 2012-08-16, 03:12   Link #243
lightsenshi
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Originally Posted by NoirX View Post
Clearly, you're not a SAO LN reader(correct me if I'm wrong), SAO isn't an anime type of action based or so like Naruto where you can cut people all you want. SAO is the type of story that "to be understand as a whole" I'm not suggesting you to read LN, but it's not like it's not quite obvious to that the first 2 episodes shown a life-death battle. I'm quite sure most people here know that these episodes are Side Stories from the LN, instead of treating this as SS that have quite alot of timeskip you should try to view it as important events of the story itself. If the boss of a level or Kirito grinding his level is not shown, it means it's not neccessary to the story. The main point of SAO itself is Kirito and his relationship with other characters. [mod edit: removed the "little hint"]
The anime should stand on it's own; the minute you say something like "read the LN", then you've failed as a storyteller. It's much like going to watch Moby Dick and finding out that all you see the entire movie is a ship sailing on the seas or Ahab telling stories in a tavern.
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Old 2012-08-16, 04:19   Link #244
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
His soloing is nearly all off-screen.
Yea and? I mean seriously you just seem to confirm that there actually -isn't- a problem. You say you don't see it and then you confirm it's there. Which is it?
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Old 2012-08-16, 05:19   Link #245
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Yea and? I mean seriously you just seem to confirm that there actually -isn't- a problem. You say you don't see it and then you confirm it's there. Which is it?
The original argument was by relentlessflame regarding "the trial of being a solo player for a long time".
"Soloing is really hard, but you'll just have to take my word for it" <- paraphrased from a high level solo front liner.
Being told something is less impactful than seeing it.

This would be like, instead of showing Sachi dying, we just have Kirito say "Sachi died in a trap in some dungeon and it's my fault". Would your reaction to that be "wow, great story telling"?
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Old 2012-08-16, 05:20   Link #246
Unknown Soldier
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
He was technically "exiled" at the end of ep 2. Before that he's just a normal solo player.
After ep 2, we see no effect regarding his "exile"/"beater" status, since he had zero problems joining up with the Black Cats, Silica, and join in the meeting with the frontline!
The lack of show, don't tell is apparent:
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Klein
"I'm a solo player" -> joins a guild
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Silica
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Asuna
(Trust me, he really is a solo player!)
His soloing is nearly all off-screen.
He spends nearly 2 years soloing and these few episodes represent the handful of times he breaks his self-imposed exile to play with other people. I think he's doing a pretty good job of playing entirely alone in an MMO, quite frankly. Most MMOs make it impossible to do anything alone, and SAO seems as group-oriented as any other MMO you can play. The only time Kirito really groups in 2 years of stuck in SAO is to help take down the floor boss so everyone can advance to the next level of the tower.
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Old 2012-08-16, 05:26   Link #247
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier View Post
He spends nearly 2 years soloing and these few episodes represent the handful of times he breaks his self-imposed exile to play with other people. I think he's doing a pretty good job of playing entirely alone in an MMO, quite frankly. Most MMOs make it impossible to do anything alone, and SAO seems as group-oriented as any other MMO you can play. The only time Kirito really groups in 2 years of stuck in SAO is to help take down the floor boss so everyone can advance to the next level of the tower.
Which then raises question too: "what significance does the status 'beater' really did to him?"

Aside from it making his character sounds cooler.
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Old 2012-08-16, 06:03   Link #248
Adigard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
The lack of show, don't tell is apparent:
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Klein
"I'm a solo player" -> joins a guild
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Silica
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Asuna
(Trust me, he really is a solo player!)
His soloing is nearly all off-screen.
I swear we have people who just want to watch endless and might I add boring bits of Kirito solo'ing wolfs for 10x wolf pelts.

I mean, really? Heck, I'll gladly accept Kirito's self-imposed solo status as long as we get to see the bits with human interactions. I think we've all seen boring hours of MMO gameplay by now. Even VR MMO gameplay is going to be boring. Pretty, bur boring.

The .Hack movie was smart enough to only show about 60 seconds of it.
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Old 2012-08-16, 06:18   Link #249
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
I swear we have people who just want to watch endless and might I add boring bits of Kirito solo'ing wolfs for 10x wolf pelts.

I mean, really? Heck, I'll gladly accept Kirito's self-imposed solo status as long as we get to see the bits with human interactions. I think we've all seen boring hours of MMO gameplay by now. Even VR MMO gameplay is going to be pretty boring.

The .Hack movie was smart enough to only show about 60 seconds of it.
How about no? There's plenty to things to explore without showing "grinding", which you think is want I want, which isn't true at all.
If he's a beater, he should be detested and some people would try to PK him. But no one's after him, AND he's accepted in the front line without complaints (well, other than Asuna).
How does he compete for xp against other parties? We're told he only goes for easy/soloable targets, yet group parties would actually fight the same foes to lessen the risk of death.

Of course, knowing the format of this show, they'll probably not be explore these parts and it'll just be left up to the audience to fill in the blanks.
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Old 2012-08-16, 06:21   Link #250
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
The .Hack movie was smart enough to only show about 60 seconds of it.
Actually, this would arguably be enough. But in SAO, it doesn't mount up to even a second. or at the very least, very very inadequate.

It's not that anyone wants endless boring grinding, but can't they show the actual struggle Kirito went through the game as a solo-player, even if it's just a glimpse?

Also, please, don't lash out just yet. Nobody is being overly offensive yet and you shouldn't be the one who start it.
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Old 2012-08-16, 07:02   Link #251
Child_of_Sierra
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
If he's a beater, he should be detested and some people would try to PK him. But no one's after him, AND he's accepted in the front line without complaints (well, other than Asuna).
He may be a beater but he is a green beater.

Anyone who kills him just cause he is a beater would be labelled as a red player.

I also don't think he is accepted in the frontlines as well as you think he is. Otherwise he would have been a member in one of the top guilds by now considering how good a player he is. The only offer for guild membership came from a middle guild (black cats) and that was cause they didn't know he was a beater.
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Old 2012-08-16, 07:17   Link #252
Adigard
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Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra View Post
I also don't think he is accepted in the frontlines as well as you think he is. Otherwise he would have been a member in one of the top guilds by now considering how good a player he is. The only offer for guild membership came from a middle guild (black cats) and that was cause they didn't know he was a beater.
We spent a fair bit of time in earlier threads debating just how silly the 'beater' tag was in a death game. The notion that a cheater is around is probably upsetting to the standard MMO player, but when trapped in a death game having a cheater might be sorta useful.

Also, I'd imagine that tag would stop being meaningful after a year. It may have had off-screen impact early on, but now I'd think it would likely be disregarded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Of course, knowing the format of this show, they'll probably not be explore these parts and it'll just be left up to the audience to fill in the blanks.
To be fair the LN readers are doing a lot of complaining about things being cut, even the anime-only viewers have noticed (Grimlock confessing after only a single line from Asuna), we don't seem to have much excess material to remove and replace with some of these scenes. Now if you're complaining that many of the past episodes have been pointless filler that's something we can't really address here. It's not 'our' adaption, after all.

//EDIT: Well, we can, it's most of what we've been doing up 'till now.

Last edited by Adigard; 2012-08-16 at 07:31.
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Old 2012-08-16, 07:42   Link #253
Znail
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Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra View Post
He may be a beater but he is a green beater.

Anyone who kills him just cause he is a beater would be labelled as a red player.

I also don't think he is accepted in the frontlines as well as you think he is. Otherwise he would have been a member in one of the top guilds by now considering how good a player he is. The only offer for guild membership came from a middle guild (black cats) and that was cause they didn't know he was a beater.
Actually, we see Klein asking him if he wont change his mind and join his guild. Klein's guild seems small, mostly a one group guild, but they are a frontline one. It must be a lot easier to have small guilds in a game where none can log out as you know that even if all you have is one group so will none of them be busy with real life stuff.
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Old 2012-08-16, 07:56   Link #254
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra View Post
He may be a beater but he is a green beater.

Anyone who kills him just cause he is a beater would be labelled as a red player.

I also don't think he is accepted in the frontlines as well as you think he is. Otherwise he would have been a member in one of the top guilds by now considering how good a player he is. The only offer for guild membership came from a middle guild (black cats) and that was cause they didn't know he was a beater.
The whole point of being labelled a "beater" was to take all responsibility of player deaths since beta testers were accused of withholding information.
After accepting his role as the scape goat you'd think a few people would want justice (death or jail).

He isn't in a top level guild because he prefers soloing. He has said so multiple times.
We don't know the exact level of acceptance he has in the frontlines, but judging from the following facts, I'd say he's doing ok:
1. he is able to keep up in the frontline as a solo player
2. he is able to join boss clearing meetings
3. no one (in the frontlines) has shown hostility towards him (that we've seen; disagreements with Asuna doesn't really count)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
We spent a fair bit of time in earlier threads debating just how silly the 'beater' tag was in a death game. The notion that a cheater is around is probably upsetting to the standard MMO player, but when trapped in a death game having a cheater might be sorta useful.

Also, I'd imagine that tag would stop being meaningful after a year. It may have had off-screen impact early on, but now I'd think it would likely be disregarded.

To be fair the LN readers are doing a lot of complaining about things being cut, even the anime-only viewers have noticed (Grimlock confessing after only a single line from Asuna), we don't seem to have much excess material to remove and replace with some of these scenes. Now if you're complaining that many of the past episodes have been pointless filler that's something we can't really address here. It's not 'our' adaption, after all.

//EDIT: Well, we can, it's most of what we've been doing up 'till now.
Yes, exploring the other players debating whether to kill off the "beater" or keeping him around (as they think he may have vital information) would have been interesting, but since time has moved on, we just have to disregard it.

The whole thing that got me into this thread was when a few people said "when's the main plot coming?" (which I was wondering too), and the response was essentially "this is the main plot" (plus I haven't read any of the previous episode threads, so I don't know what had or hadn't been discussed/spoiled by novel readers).
Of course we have confirmed these are side stories (and it was painfully obvious), and I wonder if they stuck had with the original format would there be less complaints?
Then again, with the whole time skipping format the number of complaints would probably be the same, but I'm still waiting to see what'll happen next.
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Old 2012-08-16, 08:08   Link #255
MrPopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
There's no contrast at all. In both cases Kirito made a calculated decision on what to do. He "abandoned" Klein because he knew he could only be able to help, at most, one person. He helps the guild leader because he knew he was capable of taking on a bunch of low level PKers. If anything, episode 4 trivialised the Sachi/Black Cats episode by using Silica as bait, because at the end of ep 3 he realises he's not fit to protect anyone (ie. in the viewer's eyes, he got over it quickly).
Kirito could have been a huge help to Klein and co due to his knowledge as a beta tester, the problem is that he would have lost valuable time not leveling/ finding the best grinding spots. In episode 4, he takes valuable time to hunt a low level PK guild, time which could have been better spent grinding. The end result sacrifice would have been the same.

As for the bit with Silica, he was being more cautious this time around what with giving her better equips and a teleportation crystal, as well as not actively hiding his high level. These are all little things that serve to show Kirito being more careful as a result of what happened with the Black Cats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Probably because it wasn't about closure with Sachi and the Black Cats. Following the dialogue with Silica, Kirito finds closure regarding his guilt with his real life sister/cousin; Sachi and co are a bunch of nobodies at this point.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the whole cousin thing related to Silica alone? It had no relevance as to why Kirito agreed to hunt down the PK guild in the first place.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Black Cats at least somewhat motivated him to take the detour in episode 4. Kirito could have easily thrown in a line that would have connected the two episodes together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
He was technically "exiled" at the end of ep 2. Before that he's just a normal solo player.
After ep 2, we see no effect regarding his "exile"/"beater" status, since he had zero problems joining up with the Black Cats, Silica, and join in the meeting with the frontline!
The lack of show, don't tell is apparent:
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Klein
"I'm a solo player" -> joins a guild
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Silica
"I'm a solo player" -> parties with Asuna
(Trust me, he really is a solo player!)
His soloing is nearly all off-screen.
From how i understood it, the Beater status was the primary reason for why he hid his level from the Black Cats. This ends up being kinda important since this resulted in the whole guild being wiped out.

It's also important to note that the people he parties with are generally open-minded people, Asuna herself didn't seem perturbed by Kirito's status back in episode 2. When I think about it, the type of people who would be put off by the beater title are those with a false sense of entitlement, like that one douche back in episode 2, or those who are going through a lot of emotional stress and need an outlet, like the guild leader who had his whole guild wiped in episode 3. I'm hoping this does become a bigger issue when the story focuses on the front lines where I'm sure there will be a fair share of big ego-ed high level players and suffering.
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Old 2012-08-16, 08:09   Link #256
Clarste
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I think the risk of death from other players is greatly exaggerated. Most people aren't murderers no matter how much they hate someone, and being trapped in a game hasn't changed that. The risk of being a beater is surely closer to bullying than murder.

On the other hand, the clearers, as a group, are exactly the kinds of people who accept him despite that. These are the people who risk their lives every day with the hope of eventually escaping. They simply don't have the luxury to be picky about who they work with. Not to mention they've long since passed the beta's progress, so any "cheating knowledge" would be useless now.

So basically the label only matters for mid-level players, and only the sense of bullying. It's not really that big a burden.
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Old 2012-08-16, 08:56   Link #257
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I think the risk of death from other players is greatly exaggerated. Most people aren't murderers no matter how much they hate someone, and being trapped in a game hasn't changed that. The risk of being a beater is surely closer to bullying than murder.
The existence of PK-GUILDS seems like a glaring counter fact to this though?

Actually let me rephrase that. Sure, maybe they don't really think themselves murderers. "It's a freaking game! There is no proof that you'll really die if you're killed (ughh...Shirou will cry if he hears this). You guys are the one who's strange taking it seriously."

As shown with the Silica ep, I'm guessing most people who do PK do it with something similar to above reasoning and not actually wanting to be murderers. BUT, that's actually why the threat of death by PK is actually higher than ever.
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Old 2012-08-16, 09:02   Link #258
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
(Trust me, he really is a solo player!)
His soloing is nearly all off-screen.
I take these latest episodes more like someone telling you after the fact some of the highlights of their last few years of experiences. Like, when all this is over, let's say you ask Kirito to tell you some stories about his time in the game, and these might be the ones that stick out to him. In that context, I think these are the sorts of major stories he might pick, because they're major events that involve other people. He might figure that whatever trials he had while soloing are not going to be that interesting to the person listening. I think that's the same approach the anime is taking; there are elements of the story that take place off-screen and we are supposed to fill in the blanks. We're just given "Kirito's highlight reel". Of course, we don't fully know yet why "Kirito" chose these particular scenes as his highlights, but I presume we'll find out.

I can see why some may not like this approach... but it's okay with me, anyway.
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Old 2012-08-16, 09:03   Link #259
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
The existence of PK-GUILDS seems like a glaring counter fact to this though?

Actually let me rephrase that. Sure, maybe they don't really think themselves murderers. "It's a freaking game! There is no proof that you'll really die if you're killed (ughh...Shirou will cry if he hears this). You guys are the one who's strange taking it seriously."

As shown with the Silica ep, I'm guessing most people who do PK do it with something similar to above reasoning and not actually wanting to be murderers. BUT, that's actually why the threat of death by PK is actually higher than ever.
I was talking about people hunting Kirito down for being a beater. PK guilds exist, but they surely don't care who's a beater or not. They either don't take the threat of death seriously or they're actual serial killers who enjoy killing people. Neither of those groups would bother to hunt down a high level clearer out of perceived revenge for the deaths of others due to not sharing information.

Also, PK guilds would be incredibly rare. It takes a certain kind of sociopathy to even take the risk of killing someone, regardless of whether or not you personally believe it.
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Old 2012-08-16, 09:17   Link #260
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
On the other hand, the clearers, as a group, are exactly the kinds of people who accept him despite that. These are the people who risk their lives every day with the hope of eventually escaping. They simply don't have the luxury to be picky about who they work with. Not to mention they've long since passed the beta's progress, so any "cheating knowledge" would be useless now.
Shouldn't they be though? I mean, what if high-level members of a PK-Guild anonymously infiltrates the clearer group and target players as they're in heavy damage fighting bosses?

Also, what do you think will happen if someone who acts like Leroy Jenkins join the clearing battles?

NINJA EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste
Also, PK guilds would be incredibly rare. It takes a certain kind of sociopathy to even take the risk of killing someone, regardless of whether or not you personally believe it.
Regardless, these few 'sociopaths' are a lot more dangerous than you seem to be willing to give them credit. Because, like all the rest, they are trapped within the game too, and it's what they do for fun. Also, they might not hunt Kirito down for reasons you stated, but what's stopping them to "feel like PK-ing this guy cause he seems so full of himself" or for "who's your daddy now" or simply "for the lulz"? The only way to really stop them would be to kill them too, but that would be going in circles.
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