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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 44
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 5 15.63%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 11 34.38%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 7 21.88%
7 out of 10: Good... 6 18.75%
6 out of 10: Average... 2 6.25%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 0 0%
4 out of 10: Poor... 0 0%
3 out of 10: Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 1 3.13%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-08-20, 11:47   Link #121
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And yet there was no uproar over Zeheart this episode. His absence is not even mentioned. Which means, either there was a miscommunication on the part of the Federation or Zeheart was allowed to be included amongst the Vagan soldiers who are to be allowed to leave. That would indicate that the agreement for prisoners only covers officers who remained at the base and did not participate directly in the battlefield.

Either way, it still doesn't mean Flit could just start firing.
More like they cheat their way ( they didn't mention him > hope no one notice).

And he can when his enemy = general.
Do you know how many soldiers and civilians will die because Kio stop him?

It's just like Blue cosmos leader >>> he run away >>> than he use requiem on Planet.
If Lunamaria manage to killed him while before he run away (aiming at his back like Flit aim at Zeheart back) than 200+ civilians will not die and yeah it's coward act to fire at running away enemy but it's war you know... you don't let general rank to run to killed you another day... nah that solider >>general orders kill many people not just you .
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Old 2012-08-20, 13:14   Link #122
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
It's just like Blue cosmos leader >>> he run away >>> than he use requiem on Planet.
If Lunamaria manage to killed him while before he run away (aiming at his back like Flit aim at Zeheart back) than 200+ civilians will not die and yeah it's coward act to fire at running away enemy but it's war you know... you don't let general rank to run to killed you another day... nah that solider >>general orders kill many people not just you .
The difference there is everyone was tearing Orb apart for Djibril and started a whole other battle because of stubbornness, lack of communication, or just plain stupidity. I don't see the Federation, the Diva, or even the Baronoche trying to invade Second Moon just to find Zeheart.
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Old 2012-08-20, 14:39   Link #123
monster
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Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
I also don't think Flit's attempt to target Zeheart really moves Flit's "genocidal needle" one way or another
I'm not really concerned with Flit's "genocidal needle." I was just pointing out that Flit would have made the wrong move if he had taken that shot regardless of the condition of Zeheart's mobile suit.
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
More like they cheat their way ( they didn't mention him > hope no one notice).
Meh.
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And he can when his enemy = general.
Not when it restarts a battle that has already been won.
Quote:
Do you know how many soldiers and civilians will die because Kio stop him?
I don't, but neither does anyone else. I do know that more would have been killed that day if Flit had restarted the battle by firing at Zeheart.
Quote:
It's just like Blue cosmos leader >>> he run away >>> than he use requiem on Planet.
If Lunamaria manage to killed him while before he run away (aiming at his back like Flit aim at Zeheart back) than 200+ civilians will not die
Except the objective for that battle was to get Djibril, while the objective of the battle in AGE was to recapture the base. The priorities are different.
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and yeah it's coward act to fire at running away enemy but it's war you know...
I don't even care about whether or not it's cowardice.
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you don't let general rank to run to killed you another day... nah that solider >>general orders kill many people not just you .
For what purpose? Is it to restart a battle that has already been won and sacrifice more lives, only to have someone else replace Zeheart?
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Old 2012-08-20, 15:52   Link #124
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
It's possible the agreement meant the officers on the Moon would stay, everyone else were to be let go.

Either way, firing a shot when a cease fire has been ordered could've renewed the battle and undermined their successful capture of the Moon base. So Flit would still have made a wrong move.
I would chalk the issue up with the writers.

In the chain of Command Zeheart is suppose to be the "supreme commander"

Perhaps I missed it and if I did perhaps someone could correct me but even though the EF traitor gave command to that Vagan guy the terms of the ceasefire should've gone through Zeheart to begin with.

The fact that it took his subordinate on the field to relay that message was pretty silly since it should've gone to him first.
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Old 2012-08-20, 17:30   Link #125
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Let me make myself clear since you end up ignoring my main point:
You let your enemy commander flee >>> And not just you but your whole nation end up in big shit.

Simple right?
edit

-Kill Zeheart their best commander and they will end up with useless commander like Zanald who only know how to smash to control their whole fleet > easy pray> war will end up faster.
-You let him live and he will come back with more destruction power which will cause a lot more death and agony...
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Old 2012-08-20, 17:35   Link #126
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We don't know if Zanald's a worse commander. I mean, hell--the whole pincer attack on the Diva was his plan and you know what? It ultimately resulted in the capture of the Gundam. Something that many others, including Zeheart, had tried and ultimately failed to accomplish. He might be a brute in combat but I don't think he got to his position by being an idiot.
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Old 2012-08-20, 18:44   Link #127
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We don't know if Zanald's a worse commander. I mean, hell--the whole pincer attack on the Diva was his plan and you know what? It ultimately resulted in the capture of the Gundam. Something that many others, including Zeheart, had tried and ultimately failed to accomplish. He might be a brute in combat but I don't think he got to his position by being an idiot.
Exactly, and besides, if the war is not to end in a blood bath for both sides, you need a guy like Zeheart in charge, not Zanald.
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Old 2012-08-20, 19:53   Link #128
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Regardless, Zanald hasn't exactly hidden his discontent at things to this point in the series. So I'm looking forward to him flipping out over Zeheart getting yet more special treatment.

Do wonder if fighting Sid is a sharp move by Zeheart. His record isn't exactly stellar aside from wins over pre-super pilot Asemu.
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Old 2012-08-20, 23:05   Link #129
monster
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Perhaps I missed it and if I did perhaps someone could correct me but even though the EF traitor gave command to that Vagan guy the terms of the ceasefire should've gone through Zeheart to begin with.

The fact that it took his subordinate on the field to relay that message was pretty silly since it should've gone to him first.
There's also the fact that the Federation was only told on screen to have a cease fire and to let the Vagans go. Nothing was mentioned about taking the officers as prisoners.

But regardless, bad writing or not, Zeheart's capture was not a priority at the time.
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
Let me make myself clear since you end up ignoring my main point:
You let your enemy commander flee >>> And not just you but your whole nation end up in big shit.

Simple right?
Nope, because there is nothing preventing another Vagan officer to take Zeheart's place.
Quote:
edit

-Kill Zeheart their best commander and they will end up with useless commander like Zanald who only know how to smash to control their whole fleet > easy pray> war will end up faster.
-You let him live and he will come back with more destruction power which will cause a lot more death and agony...
You're talking from the point of view of an audience. To many Federation characters in the show, Zeheart probably doesn't exist. They just know there's a Vagan commander, but there are more than one of those.

And you're still ignoring the fact that firing at Zeheart could've restarted the battle. It's an unnecessary sacrifice when the Federation has already achieved its objective.
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Old 2012-08-21, 11:43   Link #130
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Finally watched the episode.

They really seem to be going overboard with Flit and Kio being one extreme and the other to the point that Asemu is really the only sensible one here.

Flit, "exterminate all Vagans, blah blah blah" which is a lot more extreme than what he was before though people are still able to rein him in. Also throws all the things that he went through out the door.

Kio, "We should understand each other...." I still don't see how the hell he came down to that conclusion since that's not the war is about. It's so forced even Kira's mentality made a lot more sense (and he was an independent fighter by that point).

Asemu, 'Dude, your being lied to..." the only sensible one here where he tries to reveal the truth. Yet even though Zeheart confronted Ezcelant he still goes along with the plan in the end.

Ezcelant's argument that humanity is full of strife kinda baffles me. Yes humanity went through brutal wars but one can point out the Silver Chalice Treaty which sealed all of the tech away. This resulted in a very long peace for the Earth sphere which was ruined when Ezcelant came to Earth with his plans.

One can argue CB was the same in 00 but in that case they were aiming to change the political system and to prepare humanity for an actual alien invasion.
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Old 2012-08-21, 12:09   Link #131
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The signs were always there for Flit. Not our fault you chose not to see it until now. As one person explained it before in a previous thread, Flit's getting old. His son and grandson are no longer willing to follow him down the path of wiping out their enemy, and his facing the twilight years of his lifespan soon. So chances are he's now going to do what he feels should be done himself, hence his more extreme views now. Finding out the truth behind Project Eden certainly didn't help the Vagans' cause in his eyes.

As for Kio... harder to explain. There's a lot of naivety going on there, of course, but my theory is that the whole understanding "trigger" came from Ezelcant himself, during his battle against Kio and the Gundam AGE-3. "Why do you not understand?! If you've been reborn... and appeared before me like this... Why do you not understand?!"

Kio couldn't understand. But I get the feeling because of words like this, he's now trying to not make that kind of mistake again, to try and understand his opponents so the fighting isn't necessary. Ezelcant was hyped up to him to be a horrible monster hellbent on the destruction of the people... and when Kio finally meets him face to face, and (from his viewpoint at the time) he's... not. He appears to be for all intents and purposes an old man who wants the best for his people and has to make the hard decision of going to war to make sure his people survive. Plus the kindness Ezelcant showed to Kio, allowing him to ease Lu's suffering, to stay in an actual room instead of a prison cell, etc.

Sure, Ezelcant really has gone off the deep end and showed himself to be far worse than he was on the surface, but Kio had the better-than-expected first impression of him. After learning the truth behind Project Eden, Kio likely sees Ezelcant not as some monster that lied to his face, etc, but as an old man driven mad over the loss of his son and the suffering of his people (which I suppose is somewhat reinforced by the history included in the EXA-DB fragment, I imagine an account of constant warfare the like would make a person lose faith in humanity as it stands). So I think this, combined with those last statements of him demanding to know why Kio couldn't understand Ezelcant is what drives Kio to find understanding with enemy Vagan pilots, so he doesn't make a perceived mistake like before.

As for Zeheart, I think we can thank the Mars Rays for him choosing to side with Ezelcant on Project Eden--namely, how Ezelcant says he doesn't want to be a dictator or a god to humanity, because hell, the Mars Rays are going to ensure that he can't before it comes to fruition and Ezelcant boths understands that and has accepted that (keep in mind that this is what I theorize Zeheart to be perceiving of the encounter). Add to Zeheart's previous ideals concerning Ezelcant, and Ezelcant telling him not to become a god but a guide for the people (similar to how Aeolia wanted the first Innovator to be, I suppose), Ezelcant convinced Zeheart that what he's doing, while a hard decision and one not to be taken lightly, is the right choice in the end.

If nothing else, Ezelcant is a master at manipulation via emotions. His ideals may not be right, but he's certainly able to make people think they are like he believes they are.
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Old 2012-08-21, 14:03   Link #132
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The signs were always there for Flit. Not our fault you chose not to see it until now. As one person explained it before in a previous thread, Flit's getting old. His son and grandson are no longer willing to follow him down the path of wiping out their enemy, and his facing the twilight years of his lifespan soon. So chances are he's now going to do what he feels should be done himself, hence his more extreme views now. Finding out the truth behind Project Eden certainly didn't help the Vagans' cause in his eyes.
Who do you think is older between Flit and Ezelcant? Or are they roughly the same age?
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Old 2012-08-21, 14:04   Link #133
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Ezelcant, by far.
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Old 2012-08-21, 14:36   Link #134
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The signs were always there for Flit. Not our fault you chose not to see it until now. As one person explained it before in a previous thread, Flit's getting old. His son and grandson are no longer willing to follow him down the path of wiping out their enemy, and his facing the twilight years of his lifespan soon. So chances are he's now going to do what he feels should be done himself, hence his more extreme views now. Finding out the truth behind Project Eden certainly didn't help the Vagans' cause in his eyes.
Uh for the record I was the one pointing out that he was getting old and that he was an old veteran with a hatred and that it didn't helped the Vagan's cause when he found out the truth. So thanks for bringing that up

The fact that Zeheart is going with it is just another nail in the coffin on whether or not they can be saved.

Quote:
As for Kio... harder to explain. There's a lot of naivety going on there, of course, but my theory is that the whole understanding "trigger" came from Ezelcant himself, during his battle against Kio and the Gundam AGE-3. "Why do you not understand?! If you've been reborn... and appeared before me like this... Why do you not understand?!"

Kio couldn't understand. But I get the feeling because of words like this, he's now trying to not make that kind of mistake again, to try and understand his opponents so the fighting isn't necessary. Ezelcant was hyped up to him to be a horrible monster hellbent on the destruction of the people... and when Kio finally meets him face to face, and (from his viewpoint at the time) he's... not. He appears to be for all intents and purposes an old man who wants the best for his people and has to make the hard decision of going to war to make sure his people survive. Plus the kindness Ezelcant showed to Kio, allowing him to ease Lu's suffering, to stay in an actual room instead of a prison cell, etc.

Sure, Ezelcant really has gone off the deep end and showed himself to be far worse than he was on the surface, but Kio had the better-than-expected first impression of him. After learning the truth behind Project Eden, Kio likely sees Ezelcant not as some monster that lied to his face, etc, but as an old man driven mad over the loss of his son and the suffering of his people (which I suppose is somewhat reinforced by the history included in the EXA-DB fragment, I imagine an account of constant warfare the like would make a person lose faith in humanity as it stands). So I think this, combined with those last statements of him demanding to know why Kio couldn't understand Ezelcant is what drives Kio to find understanding with enemy Vagan pilots, so he doesn't make a perceived mistake like before.

As for Zeheart, I think we can thank the Mars Rays for him choosing to side with Ezelcant on Project Eden--namely, how Ezelcant says he doesn't want to be a dictator or a god to humanity, because hell, the Mars Rays are going to ensure that he can't before it comes to fruition and Ezelcant boths understands that and has accepted that (keep in mind that this is what I theorize Zeheart to be perceiving of the encounter). Add to Zeheart's previous ideals concerning Ezelcant, and Ezelcant telling him not to become a god but a guide for the people (similar to how Aeolia wanted the first Innovator to be, I suppose), Ezelcant convinced Zeheart that what he's doing, while a hard decision and one not to be taken lightly, is the right choice in the end.
The fact that you had to go over a lengthy essay about this and it's still not that great of an explanation (not your fault mind you) shows that the show failed in that department.
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Old 2012-08-21, 14:46   Link #135
Rising Dragon
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Uh for the record I was the one pointing out that he was getting old and that he was an old veteran with a hatred and that it didn't helped the Vagan's cause when he found out the truth. So thanks for bringing that up
Hmm. Perhaps if your posts were more memorable on a regular basis than your usual dismissals of everything then perhaps I'd have remembered that you made such a memorable statement. My apologies.

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The fact that you had to go over a lengthy essay about this and it's still not that great of an explanation (not your fault mind you) shows that the show failed in that department.
Most of that lengthy essay was restating what has happened in the show and my interpretation of it. I could easily shorten it without the restatements, but chances are you wouldn't read it anyway.
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Old 2012-08-22, 05:21   Link #136
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*sigh* Again? This is getting really old.

As for who's older, Ezelcant wins for being over 100 years old by now.
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Old 2012-08-22, 19:40   Link #137
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The condition of Zeheart's mobile suit and whether or not Flit could tell do not matter.

A cease fire has been called. Flit would be in the wrong had Kio not stopped him from firing.
Hah! At least somebody gets it.

Oh you can shoot a retreating enemy, even turn it to a rout.

Retreat does not mean surrender. In war you kill as much of planes, warships and tanks as much as possible to reduce/break the enemy's military power.

But as said a ceasefire was called.

This was an episode ago!


On to the episode itself.

Anyway Flit is still a grumpy old man. "Do as you like! hmph!" Kio still in lala land not recognizing to stop Project Eden the Vegans must not win. Putting your head in sand wont change a thing. If you can't change the way you are thinking how can you change Flit's way of thinking.

Zeheart... Dammit man you know Ezelcant is insane. Him dying of Mars Ray which his life is extended by cold sleep while ruining billions of lives does not absolve the crimes he has done.

Oh if you don't fulfill Fram's expectations she'll kill you, even if she loves you. Your reason and her reason for fighting are different.
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Old 2012-08-23, 03:49   Link #138
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I don't think Kio's way of thinking is wrong. It's just that 'talking to his enemy in the middle of a battle' obviously isn't gonna work. I'm hoping he'll figure something out.

As for Zeheart, he's only doing what he believes is right.
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Old 2012-08-23, 20:28   Link #139
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Was an alright episode. We confirmed a lot about flit and his ideas. We now know for sure he wants to "exterminate" the vagan. We also, as before, see the differences between flit, his son, and Kio.

On the down side, which is why I gave it a 7, is that there wasn't a whole lot of action. Actually, almost none at all. Also yes, Kio seems like an ULTRA kira. It's almost a turnoff to the character, but it's understandable after the time Kio spent in the Vagan city.

Overall, agreed about Asemu. He is the most sensible character thus far. A good middle character compared to Flit and Kio.
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Old 2012-08-23, 23:15   Link #140
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Ezelcant dying so soon just made it seem like he was really doing project eden for the greater good, otherwise Zeheart would just condemned him for wanting a dictatorship after eden was created. him handing over his power however won Zeheart over.

I'm sure Zeheart might make changes to project eden by the end since Ezelcant told him to do whatever he wanted from now on but only time will tell.
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