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Old 2014-02-21, 11:44   Link #2581
justpassingby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCAL View Post
The point I am trying to make is that you could have taken a good fifteen minutes of the episode out and I would have been none the wiser. Doesn't help that Miuna's drama lacks any kind of pathos, unlike Hikari and Manaka.
Eh, Manaka annoyed the fuck out of me in the first cour. Thankfully I didn't become a broken record to state how I hated her in every episodes back then. The only good drama she had was when she sacrificed herself, and I am thankful for what she did. Bringing her back for more drama for the sake of drama is not going to be a good idea.

And Miuna's drama might lacks pathos for you, but not for me.

Also, my point is that you should speculate on the next things to happen, so when they happen you will have the chance of saying of not becoming any wiser, as you've worded.
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Old 2014-02-21, 12:06   Link #2582
leorodri100
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in my case i simply dislike miuna, so yeah her arc is not interesting for me in any ways, but as i see things, the miuna spectacle is finally over and we will have focous back to hikari, wich is the one that actually matters, thou i would also like chisaki to move on and get with tsumugu.
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Old 2014-02-21, 12:09   Link #2583
MCAL
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Originally Posted by justpassingby View Post
Thankfully I didn't become a broken record to state how I hated her in every episodes back then.
Four episodes out of twenty can hardly be considered every episode. And even if it was, what's the point? I notice and talk about flaws more than others so therefore there's something wrong with me?

Last edited by MCAL; 2014-02-21 at 12:24.
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Old 2014-02-21, 13:39   Link #2584
deadite
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Anyone notice that the awakening of the sea kids is somehow related to Miuna wanting them to return? Especially when this episode when Manaka wakes up because Miuna accepts that she should wake up?
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Old 2014-02-21, 13:54   Link #2585
Zangor17
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From the looks of the next episode preview and the fact that Manaka and Hikari seem to be meeting Chisaki and Kaname together im going to assume that Manaka is staying at Akari's place as well. It probably also helps that she was kinda already there for a week anyway doesn't it.
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Old 2014-02-21, 14:18   Link #2586
Haak
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Originally Posted by MCAL View Post
Except what they were implying is that Manaka herself was the person to give Miuna Ena. Otherwise her being able to hear Manaka's crackling ena wouldn't make sense. Again, if they explain this properly, then I'll change my mind.
That shouldn't make a difference. It's all ultimately the Sea God's doing anyway. And Miuna's super hearing is not linked to Manaka's ena. Remember, she's had that since episode 14.

Quote:
I think what is happening is that our definition of "contrived" is slightly different. Your definition is that if the events aren't important and kept that way it is contrived (Correct me if I am wrong). While my definition is that this cause was unexplained and out of the blue and therefore is contrived. For me its a simple cause and effect. The cause was unnatural and forced and the effect is natural and makes sense. But because the natural was caused by an unnatural, the well has been poisoned and the whole thing ends up contrived..
Incorrect. My point is that something is contrived if it's only used as a convenient device to move the plot and nothing more. However, the story has clearly established that Miuna's Ena is not just a convenient device - it's a plot point and a source of character drama. You're complaining about it being unexplained when the fact that it's unexplained is supposed to be that way because it's a mystery. Yes it's unnatural, but they've lampshaded that far too much for us to dismiss it as something they're using for convenience.

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Originally Posted by MCAL View Post
The point I am trying to make is that you could have taken a good fifteen minutes of the episode out and I would have been none the wiser.
I'm assuming that's an exaggeration, especially since almost half the episode was about Hikari just as much as it was about Miuna. In any case you're missing the point again: This is character drama - the characters are the plot.

Quote:
Doesn't help that Miuna's drama lacks any kind of pathos, unlike Hikari and Manaka.
I'd say Miuna's pathos is less clear cut but as far as i can see, it's been similar to Hikari's in that she's slowly coming to accept she has to stop thinking about Hikari for herself and come to terms with Hikari having his own love, just like Hikari did for Manaka.
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Old 2014-02-21, 15:02   Link #2587
Flower
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I think those are good points you made Haak, but I kinda think that the main problem with many posters in the thread with this ep is ... well, quite frankly impatience. They:

1. want to see the series move ahead and resolve things for all the characters (in other words they _care_ about the characters).

2. want for there to be more sense out of what they have been shown so far in terms of the larger story and have not been able to either make sense of what they have seen thus far and/or don't like what they have seen so far.

I really do kinda feel that what is going on at root among many (not all) of the posters who have responded negatively is in reaction to the slow pace that they are being exposed to that they are having difficulty understanding _why_.

That being said, while I felt the last ep was needed and perhaps a little too drawn out in the short term, I think, but I also feel that it would be premature (though understandable) to start throwing tables around, screaming "That does it! I am soooo done with this series!" (though they will watch next week's ep too, very likely). I think it was very well said by two of the posters above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya
I'm not talking about Tsumugu, but about their relationship. It's still dynamic. But I don't want to convince you. We have to wait and see
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun
...But yeah, let's wait and see.
In other words, there are still many eps left - let's be patient and see what the series will do with them. ^^
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Old 2014-02-21, 15:08   Link #2588
Raine721
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Hahaha it's funny how everyone including myself keep saying every week "oh! Blah blah is back!! Now the next ep is going to move forward!!" But really, not much is moving forward. And I feel that next ep is just going to be about the 4 people reunion with touching moments with the outsiders moping around....
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Old 2014-02-21, 15:10   Link #2589
Kaoru Chujo
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For me, this was an excellent episode, one of the best. That's largely because it was so much concerned with people's feelings, about the situation, about themselves, about each other. That is what I watch this stuff for, more than the shallow machinations of "plot."

Miuna is one of my favorite characters because she is dealing with such strong, sweet, understandable, romantic feelings. Tsumugu is another of my favorites because his feelings are, despite his own sense of them, deeper than other people's. Too deep to come bubbling up onto the surface at all times. It was heaven for me to see them together, revealing themselves and trying to understand and come to terms with their situations.

I still don't much like Hikari, because of his self-centred irascibility and especially because of how he treated Manaka early on. To me, he loves her as someone he can boss around. Like other extroverts, he is effective (although his ofunehiki may have had bad effects, rather than good), but he still has to demonstrate to me that he has any real depth. Other viewers love him, so I think it's okay for me to feel differently. He gets enough support elsewhere.

I was delighted with the way this episode was presented. When I saw the end-credits, I saw a name as storyboarder whose episodes I often like: the Korean episode director and storyboarder Ho Jon 許琮, who did the storyboard for ep15, as well as five eps of Uchouten Kazoku, and multiple eps of shows like Tari Tari, RDG, Canaan, Hanasaku Iroha, True Tears, etc.

The way they handled Manaka at the end was wonderful, with the voice preceding the image. I like the suggestion that Miuna has some hidden powers.
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Old 2014-02-21, 15:39   Link #2590
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Flower View Post
I think those are good points you made Haak, but I kinda think that the main problem with many posters in the thread with this ep is ... well, quite frankly impatience. They:

1. want to see the series move ahead and resolve things for all the characters (in other words they _care_ about the characters).

2. want for there to be more sense out of what they have been shown so far in terms of the larger story and have not been able to either make sense of what they have seen thus far and/or don't like what they have seen so far.

I really do kinda feel that what is going on at root among many (not all) of the posters who have responded negatively is in reaction to the slow pace that they are being exposed to that they are having difficulty understanding _why_.

That being said, while I felt the last ep was needed and perhaps a little too drawn out in the short term, I think, but I also feel that it would be premature (though understandable) to start throwing tables around, screaming "That does it! I am soooo done with this series!" (though they will watch next week's ep too, very likely). I think it was very well said by two of the posters above:





In other words, there are still many eps left - let's be patient and see what the series will do with them. ^^
I don't think that's the problem. Most of the people who complained about this episode (in here and other places) have one thing in common: they hate Miuna. They hate her so much they can't enjoy any episode she has a major role in no matter how good it is, which of course makes sense. It's hard to enjoy a show when you hate its main character. I feel like just like a lot of characters in the show, a part of the audience can't move on and accept Miuna is the new main character. It's quite ironic.
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Old 2014-02-21, 15:54   Link #2591
Flower
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I don't think that's the problem. Most of the people who complained about this episode (in here and other places) have one thing in common: they hate Miuna. They hate her so much they can't enjoy any episode she has a major role in no matter how good it is, which of course makes sense. It's hard to enjoy a show when you hate its main character. I feel like just like a lot of characters in the show, a part of the audience can't move on and accept Miuna is the new main character. It's quite ironic.
Fairly said, and I do not disagree in general.

Hmm ... I guess I kinda feel Miuna is a "poster girl" or primary example of what I described in point #2 though - many people cannot really see _why_ she should be in the forefront or be a primary focus.

What they see her purpose being present thus far as can vary - plot contrivance, pandering, moe factor, emotional drama exploitation or whatever (none of which I personally agree with, but these are some of the reasons I can recall being offered as to why some posters might dislike Miuna).

Again though, to use her specific example, I believe she has been put in the forefront for a particular reason to the overall resolution of the series whether or no we can make sense of it at the moment. The first cour showed a very effective, tightly written narrative in my opinion, and I feel the second cour is doing the same thing with the exception that it is a little slower to deliver.

But with the first cour before us as an example and with obvious elements and story building in process in the second cour already having been presented, why not trust in the delivery pattern of the first cour?

In other words, be patient and give it a chance. It has a good track record overall.
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Old 2014-02-21, 16:36   Link #2592
MCAL
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I don't think that's the problem. Most of the people who complained about this episode (in here and other places) have one thing in common: they hate Miuna. They hate her so much they can't enjoy any episode she has a major role in no matter how good it is, which of course makes sense. It's hard to enjoy a show when you hate its main character. I feel like just like a lot of characters in the show, a part of the audience can't move on and accept Miuna is the new main character. It's quite ironic.
But that makes it sound like people who don't like Miuna don't have a legitimate opinion. Which is completely untrue. I've reasonably and mostly amiably explained my opinion and only snapped back when one commenter implied I was acting irrational. If I felt I interpreted someone wrong, I asked them to correct me.

And I dispute that just because I hate a character, I can't have my opinion changed by the show itself. For example, I hated Hikari for the first three episodes or so, but now I really like him, because he earned it through good character development and through the writing.
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Old 2014-02-21, 17:12   Link #2593
Flower
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Originally Posted by MCAL View Post
But that makes it sound like people who don't like Miuna don't have a legitimate opinion. Which is completely untrue. I've reasonably and mostly amiably explained my opinion and only snapped back when one commenter implied I was acting irrational. If I felt I interpreted someone wrong, I asked them to correct me.

And I dispute that just because I hate a character, I can't have my opinion changed by the show itself. For example, I hated Hikari for the first three episodes or so, but now I really like him, because he earned it through good character development and through the writing.
As you mentioned earlier, you wanted proof saying "if they explain this properly". To be honest I have been rather unimpressed by Hikari's behavior the past few eps, but I can understand it, or empathize with it. Now matter how much growth he may make he still is 14 after all.

But even so, there is the larger "overall" picture to take into account in my opinion. Even if one dislikes one aspect or part of a series I think it is important to keep the whole picture in mind lest one ruin the series for oneself ... or even others. And in that light for myself Hikari's behavior the past few eps is a rather small thing indeed.

I don't think the problem is a question of whether or no an opinion is legitimate but what they do with the opinion being legitimate, or even "fair" - both to a series itself, to others one is discussing the series with, or even ultimately to oneself. No one is forcing a viewer to keep watching a series, after all. If you don't like something then just let it go. Maybe one needs to come back to it later with a fresher perspective or maybe it is not, after all, one's cup of tea.
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Old 2014-02-21, 17:20   Link #2594
serenade_beta
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*Manaka wakes up*
Noooooooooooo----!
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Old 2014-02-21, 17:29   Link #2595
kresslia
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Garbage episode.

Miuna's character is pathetic. I'm basically zoning out in any scene of importance revolving her at this point. Not only do I find her role in the story nonsensically contrived, but I also find her hard to sympathize with on any level. I simply don't care about her. I could have skipped this episode with nothing lost.

I'm skeptical of the show ending well as things stand now.
My thoughts exactly. So pathetic that we spent an entire episode on her being a selfish ahole. It's human, but that doesn't make it any less off-putting, mostly because there is still no reason for me to sympathize with her. As you said, I simply don't care about her. If this was Chisaki not wanting Manaka to wake up, I'd feel some sympathy, since she spent most of her life with him and we've seen that in the first half (although it'd still be incredibly crappy since Manaka is her best friend). Miuna? She has no history with him - I don't even know how she likes him this much in the first place. So she can build a damn bridge and get over it.

Miuna's presence alone is going to drop this series down from a 9/10 to a ~7/10 for me if things don't get better.
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Old 2014-02-21, 17:46   Link #2596
Suzuku
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Chisaki is clearly the best girl I hope she wins.
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Old 2014-02-21, 17:53   Link #2597
Arya
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I think that people doesn't hate Miuna per se. The problem is more related to how she has been handled. I'll try to explain it with an example, stretched and with tongue in cheek, but still valid I think.
Spoiler for House example:


On a side note, odd that nobody posted a gif of Chisaki resurfacing from the sea yet.
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Old 2014-02-21, 18:24   Link #2598
Zangor17
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trust me its on Tumblr the scene with manaka waking up is also an adorable gif now too.
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Old 2014-02-21, 18:33   Link #2599
FlareKnight
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Well glad Manaka has rejoined the cast. When it comes to Miuna there are just times I like her and times I feel like she becomes too much about one thing. Not a bad character, I just hope they can balance out the screentime a bit better.

I did like the chat with her and Tsumugu. Two people who can relate on the topic they discussed. I'm sure for Tsumugu the idea of Hikari and company waking up was a scary thing. But you see those friends again and get those people back in your life and it is a good thing. Probably helps that clearly he's got no threat in Kaname though the Hikari issue exists .

Maybe the funnest moment of the episode was the jaws pretty well dropping when Chisaki resurfaced . Dive, dive, dive! Luckily it's getting colder since they retrieved Manaka so they could cool off.
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Old 2014-02-21, 18:48   Link #2600
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by MCAL View Post
The frozen time will start to move. And that is when everything will begin... Heh. I was waiting for this moment to dust that off...

So the problem with Miuna still stands. She's still the the main character through contrived events and deus ex machina. And the problem with this episode really is we spent over half of it talking about things we already knew about Miuna. Where's the natural character development?
Too late - I used it after episode 19.
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