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Old 2013-10-04, 12:26   Link #281
FredFriendly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Fred, twist that into the female version(from any series), answer then why all the blame still goes to the male.
I couldn't possible tell why you always blame the male. I don't. There have been plenty of tsundere females who I didn't like. You shouldn't lump everyone into your category.

But, in this case, you're the one labeling Hikari tsundere, not me. He may or may not be tsundere, but he certainly acts like a bully and a jerk to me. To me, tsundere and bully are not equivalent.

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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
No double standards there. There are good and bad tsunderes, it's not a matter of gender.
Exactly. For me, it all depends on how the "tsundere-ness" manifests itself. In the case of females, some can be darn cute, whereas some are just over the top with the "tsun-ness" and are just way to mean and/or cruel to be likable, even if they do have a "dere" side.
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Old 2013-10-04, 12:35   Link #282
Birdway
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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
I couldn't possible tell why you always blame the male. I don't. There have been plenty of tsundere females who I didn't like. You shouldn't lump everyone into your category.

But, in this case, you're the one labeling Hikari tsundere, not me. He may or may not be tsundere, but he certainly acts like a bully and a jerk to me. To me, tsundere and bully are not equivalent.
Do you even know what even means the word bullying? Because you clearly are using it wrong.

I don't, I'm talking about the general way female tsunderes are used/handled and how in-series everyone throws the blame at the male in anime.

I used that word on him because there is no better word bttb, but so far he is no different from the cliche even more since he is the chilhood friend. He acts harsh towards the female character because she always is a crybaby, he doesn't wants her apologies just wants to act less whiny in front of people, if he acts like his other friends who are okay on how she behaves things won't change so he takes a different approach. Of course I do think some of the words his chooses are reprochable.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
By the way, just for the record, the infamous line "ovulating" that people keep pointing to is just translator liberty, and wasn't in the Japanese dialogue. The original line is just "雌の匂いがする", which is just something like "Smells like a female". In the next scene, the protagonist asks what he meant by that, and he explains that she's "in heat". So I guess in composite you could say that the original line is correct, but he'd never ask the clarification question if indeed he had said what he was mistranslated as saying. The translator basically took a massive liberty, ruined a joke, and created a line that sounds stupid, all in one go (which of course people blamed the Japanese writer for without any proof or evidence).

So, basically, get a better translation than that crap.
It wasn't that funny though
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Old 2013-10-04, 12:36   Link #283
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By the way, just for the record, the infamous line "ovulating" that people keep pointing to is just translator liberty, and isn't what he actually says in Japanese. The spoken line is just "雌の匂いがする", which is just something like "Smells like a female". In the next scene, the protagonist asks what he meant by that, and he explains that she's "in heat". So I guess in composite you could say that the original line is correct, but he'd never ask the clarification question if indeed he had said what he was mistranslated as saying. The translator basically took a massive liberty, ruined a joke, and created a line that sounds stupid, all in one go (which of course people blamed the Japanese writer for without any proof or evidence).

So, basically, get a better translation than that crap.
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Old 2013-10-04, 12:38   Link #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
No double standards there. There are good and bad tsunderes, it's not a matter of gender. We complained just as much about Kirino from Oreimo, for example. And there are people who don't like tsunderes at all.
Yeah, I also instantly thought of the Kirino counter when I read Birdway's post there.

But to flip things on their head a bit, I know a lot of people consider Kyon (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya) to be a male tsundere, and he's also pretty popular and generally well-liked.

So like you said, there are good and bad tsunderes in both genders.
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Old 2013-10-04, 12:43   Link #285
Birdway
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yeah, I also instantly thought of the Kirino counter when I read Birdway's post there.

But to flip things on their head a bit, I know a lot of people consider Kyon (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya) to be a male tsundere, and he's also pretty popular and generally well-liked.

So like you said, there are good and bad tsunderes in both genders.
My post makes a reference to the general tsundere who usually is the bitchy one, others like Hinagiku and...and.... sorry can't get any other examples, the nice/balanced tsunderes are a rarity.
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Old 2013-10-04, 13:45   Link #286
Utsuro no Hako
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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Who said she is a horrible person I didn't, but I see you calling the mc a jerk.
Because he is. He treats Memna -- er, Manaka -- like she's a thing that belongs to him. In the first scene they have together, he runs up to her and starts yelling in her face because she didn't do what he'd told her to do -- something that was in itself intended to be jerkish and set his friends apart from their new classmates.

For a tsundere figure to be sympathetic as a character, the story either needs to acknowledge that they're behaving in a screwed up manner (Toradora), or their meanness needs to be a justified response to another character's behavior. So far we have neither. The guy's just a jerk.
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Old 2013-10-04, 13:53   Link #287
Birdway
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Or you can just say he isn't being honest with his feelings .

Taiga wasn't sympathetic to me... she even had to get a mean to justify her horrible character behaviour various episodes/novels later. About the MC see the post #282.
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Old 2013-10-04, 16:01   Link #288
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by FredFriendly View Post
Although I've only read the last couple of pages of posts here, I'm surprised at the readiness to suspend all dis-belief with this show as compared with, say, the ridiculous debate going on over on the Coppelion anime thread. There were so many things wrong with what I saw underwater during this episode, that I just don't know where to start. So I won't.
I didn't exactly offer any qualitative assessment of this first episode, but since I feel this targets me I will respond.

1. This show is some weird fantasy world that is not exactly based on reality. This isn't a hard sci-fi show.

2. I never thought the setting is well conceived. The idea of people living in the sea and cooking food with some spirit fire and eating/drinking in the water is honestly pretty stupid. I also don't get why they would attend a surface school if being on the surface too long kills them. This all seems pretty ridiculous to me.

3. I don't care about this show like I cared about Coppelion. My expectations of Okada and PA works working together are at an all time low.


----

Anyways, this is just going to be a cheap melodrama with typical perverted okada humor. I have no reason to believe this will turn out any good, but I do expect it to make tons of people rage, which will probably be funnier than the show itself.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
So, basically, get a better translation than that crap.
Translation made it seem much worse, but it's still a pretty ridiculous scene lol.
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Old 2013-10-04, 16:13   Link #289
cloud04
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for some reason..manaka looks like liliel from kamipara LOL
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Old 2013-10-04, 16:14   Link #290
Miraluka
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In the manga I do recall clothes and hair waving due to being underwater here in the anime it feels like watching SpongeBob SquarePants .

I'm not gonna rage about the annoying MenManaka anymore. I'm trying to not to >_<.
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Old 2013-10-04, 16:24   Link #291
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Menma had reasons for being who she was. Manaka, so far, does not.
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Old 2013-10-04, 16:30   Link #292
Miraluka
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Menma had reasons for being who she was. Manaka, so far, does not.
Just drawing a comparison but yeah, Menma was dead and was some kind of tormented ghost so she was justified for who she was, also she had the mental age of a kid because she died like one. Here on the other Manaka is on middle school 2nd year already if my memory doesn't fails.
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Old 2013-10-04, 16:46   Link #293
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I wonder if there's some deep, as of now unexplained reason that Manaka fell for that one kid at the back of the classroom in about three seconds (ie he reminds her of someone else from her past, or something along those lines), or if she's just in heat the 'love at first sight' type. A question for later episodes to answer, I suppose. Poor Hikari; if Manaka initially became that infatuated with Tsumugu before he'd even opened his mouth and with absolutely no effort made on his part besides existing, then Tsumugu must have increased that headstart by about a hundred times by saving Manaka and in the process forming an actual meaningful relationship with her.
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Old 2013-10-04, 18:39   Link #294
Xiyon
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Because he is. He treats Memna -- er, Manaka -- like she's a thing that belongs to him. In the first scene they have together, he runs up to her and starts yelling in her face because she didn't do what he'd told her to do -- something that was in itself intended to be jerkish and set his friends apart from their new classmates.

For a tsundere figure to be sympathetic as a character, the story either needs to acknowledge that they're behaving in a screwed up manner (Toradora), or their meanness needs to be a justified response to another character's behavior. So far we have neither. The guy's just a jerk.
Agreed.

I'd also add that if Hikari wasn't so obtusely arrogant, he'd be tolerable. I mean, among his opening lines was essentially "Manaka can't live without me".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
I wonder if there's some deep, as of now unexplained reason that Manaka fell for that one kid at the back of the classroom in about three seconds (ie he reminds her of someone else from her past, or something along those lines), or if she's just in heat the 'love at first sight' type. A question for later episodes to answer, I suppose. Poor Hikari; if Manaka initially became that infatuated with Tsumugu before he'd even opened his mouth and with absolutely no effort made on his part besides existing, then Tsumugu must have increased that headstart by about a hundred times by saving Manaka and in the process forming an actual meaningful relationship with her.
The way I see it, Hikari's been over-protective and very possessive of Manaka ever since. Manaka likely fell for surface boy because he wasn't asserting himself in such a jerkish manner.

What bothers me is how annoyingly over-reactive and spineless Manaka is. Maybe there is a good reason; maybe there isn't. My hunch is it's because her friends shelter her, but that only makes her even more spineless.

Granted, if these are supposed to be 2nd year middle-schoolers (that's 14 years old, right?), then I might be able to tolerate these two, to an extent.
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Old 2013-10-04, 19:05   Link #295
Rosalena
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Maybe that's why the sea-people/land-people thing seemed weird to me. The underwater mechanics made me think of Spongebob Squarepants, which is probably not a good thing.

The first "moving in water-town" scene also made me think more of a really bad acid trip then people actually living underwater.

I have to say though - I LOLed really hard when the guy literally caught the girl. That was so funny!
I've never see Spongebob Squarepants so I can't say whether the Nagi no Asukara water-town mechanics are like that show or not. Maybe? All I know is that it was a bit distracting that the directors seemed to pick and choose what moments to have water behave like water. It's definitely not a deal-breaker though.

I laughed at that scene too! The reactions were so spot-on that I just couldn't help it. It's rare that an anime actually makes me laugh out loud so kudos to the team for that.
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Old 2013-10-04, 19:18   Link #296
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Originally Posted by Xiyon View Post
The way I see it, Hikari's been over-protective and very possessive of Manaka ever since. Manaka likely fell for surface boy because he wasn't asserting himself in such a jerkish manner.
I do hope they give us a reason for that sometime in the future. 'cause right now it seems that he fished her out of the water and she fell in love/went into heat the moment their eyes met.
They only actually interacted towards the end of the episode, and Manaka was already head over heels with him by then...

...and even I doubt that Hikari could've bullied her to the point that all it takes is a glance from another male for her to want to be with him instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I have to say though - I LOLed really hard when the guy literally caught the girl. That was so funny!
"Son, that's a big one! What is it?"
"...a love triangle"
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Old 2013-10-04, 19:28   Link #297
Xiyon
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Originally Posted by Dark Faith View Post
I do hope they give us a reason for that sometime in the future. 'cause right now it seems that he fished her out of the water and she fell in love/went into heat the moment their eyes met.
They only actually interacted towards the end of the episode, and Manaka was already head over heels with him by then...

...and even I doubt that Hikari could've bullied her to the point that all it takes is a glance from another male for her to want to be with him instead.



"Son, that's a big one! What is it?"
"...a love triangle"
Bear in mind that we don't see what happened between surface boy and Manaka when he fished her out of the water.

While I wouldn't quite call it bullying-- since that implies malicious intent-- Hikari's over-protective tsun-ness was likely suffocating (but Manaka seems too docile to rebel, so facepalm). The racist rips her first thing in the morning simply because she was wearing a surface-dweller's uniform.
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Old 2013-10-04, 19:33   Link #298
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I do NOT like where this series is going. Clearly there's going to be some big catastrophe involving legends of old overlaying an interspecies romantic warfare, but that's not the part I don't like. Call me a sexist, but I HATE love triangles with one female.
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Old 2013-10-04, 19:38   Link #299
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Originally Posted by Rosalena View Post
I've never see Spongebob Squarepants so I can't say whether the Nagi no Asukara water-town mechanics are like that show or not. Maybe? All I know is that it was a bit distracting that the directors seemed to pick and choose what moments to have water behave like water. It's definitely not a deal-breaker though.

I laughed at that scene too! The reactions were so spot-on that I just couldn't help it. It's rare that an anime actually makes me laugh out loud so kudos to the team for that.
Spongebob Physics Lesson:

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Old 2013-10-04, 19:56   Link #300
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It's interesting that everyone is convinced there's no good reason the characters are the way they are after one episode with no backstory out of a two-cour series. But then, as this show was almost universally dismissed as a disaster before it even premiered I guess it's at least consistent.
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