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Old 2014-01-30, 21:43   Link #1941
Kinali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playmaker2k View Post
The passive will get what they want in time while the active will be the unrequited.

The reason I say this is because Okada hates the dreamer/shonen mindset and loves to give those characters a reality check.
Which is funny because in reality its those that are proactive that have a better chance than those that are passive.


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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
He's been the one who brushed her off. Chisaki's begun to discard her old world now she has a chance to get it back.
That's the one thing that annoys me about Tsumugu.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Meanwhile, as contrast, Hikari has to bring up his love for Manaka to awake Chisaki's admiration for his affection this episode. Tsumugu only has to wear different clothes.
It still gets her admiration though and lately she's been looking more at Hikari as opposed to Tsumugu since he showed up. I guess that stupid crush is still lingering inside of her.

P.S.
Oh and I about the walking in thing. I could never walk in on my sisters without them getting embarrassed.
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Old 2014-01-30, 21:46   Link #1942
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So I was wrong, it's Sayu and Miuna who are the sick two... love sick to be more precise. I took being 'sick' as an excuse to avoid seeing the changes around them like what Hikari did. I thought Kaname was gonna be like that too but he surprisingly took everything well, without any emotional outbursts infact. Kids these with their amazing coping up mechanisms. Or perhaps Kaname just likes to keep things to himself and suffer quietly inside?

It appears Chisaki is still in love with Hikari. That's another hurdle for the inevitable Tsumugu x Chisaki pairing. I pity Tsumugu, you're basically a hot young popular guy who has the dream job of his life, but the girl you're in love with is still hung up on his childhood crush who is still 14 by the way. That has got to be a massive blow to your ego.

That being said, the highlight of this episode for me was the ending. The three going underwater trying to find a way to enter ShioShiShio. I'm expecting some devasting and depressing shit here.
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Old 2014-01-30, 21:48   Link #1943
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Hikari better get on with the program... he still thinks ManakaxTsumugu is a thing..
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Old 2014-01-30, 21:50   Link #1944
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I have to admit that Thess has swayed me a bit on Chisaki/Tsumugu. I wasn't really seeing it before, especially from Chisaki's side, but I'm seeing it now. And yeah, Chisaki's decision to not go with Hikari, Kaname, and Miuna might have significant symbolic relevance.

I'm now inclined to think that Tsumugu is too considerate for his own good, and likely would have been in a romance with Chisaki by now if he had bothered to try to strike one up with her. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it's too late, as Chisaki still is showing signs of romantic fondness for him, even if they are subtle. The two clearly have strong feelings for each other, and Chisaki's blushing towards Tsumugu does suggest its more than just "family" feelings at play here (Thess is right in pointing out the Manaka contrast, but another contrast would be Hikari not caring about Miuna seeing him in his boxers a couple episodes back).
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Old 2014-01-30, 21:51   Link #1945
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Originally Posted by Kinali View Post
It still gets her admiration though and lately she's been looking more at Hikari as opposed to Tsumugu since he showed up. I guess that stupid crush is still lingering inside of her.
Reaaally? How? By completely ignoring Hikari until Hikari himself brought up how much he wants Manaka in this episode? She didn't even bother to go visit him, did she? All the times he is brought up, Chisaki clings to her personal dread of change (not Hikari himself, but he as symbol of the old life she no longer lives) and the only time she pays him attention is when he's speaking of Manaka (the only reason why she likes him). She's nostalgic, but sure she didn't jump into the sea for him or her old life in this episode, did she? Sure seems to be serious. That's why Kaname's sulking about Tsumugu as stated in the official episode summary.

ETA:
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm now inclined to think that Tsumugu is too considerate for his own good.
I don't think is just consideration (while it is in part), Tsumugu has his own emotional hurdle to overcome which is likely connected to his family too. I am not really perceiving Chisaki's major issues as romantic rooted, her feelings for Hikari have always been the least of her worries and a crutch she uses to mask her inner fears. Her reason to love him because he loves Manaka, that's it. This episode show the time she shows some flash of romantic interest on Hikari is when he moons about Manaka aloud to seal that deal. Her issues I saw were linked to losing what she sees as her family and her own attempts to cope with it. Tsumugu, coincidently, seems to have family problems that are still yet to be resolved and they have been helping each other with this. Tsumugu and Chisaki should start their own 'family', that's why they have a husband and wife vibe and not a boyfriend and girlfriend immature vibe. It's a lot more like Akari-Itaru drama which wasn't focused on their romance, but them as family, even if their relationship was romantic.

If it makes sense what I am trying to say. They are foils: Chisaki had a loving family that was waiting for her and supported her, she wanted to stay with them. She was ripped apart from it. Tsumugu is estranged with his family and moved away from it, trying to avoid them as much as he can. Tsumugu is studying the currents to bring Chisaki's family back. Chisaki's studying nurse to look after Tsumugu's grandfather and she's aware of his family trouble. This was absolutely no coincidence.
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Last edited by Thess; 2014-01-30 at 22:06.
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:02   Link #1946
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
(...), but I'm seeing it now. And yeah, Chisaki's decision to not go with Hikari, Kaname, and Miuna might have significant symbolic relevance.
Well, after 5 years doing that would be a 'change' from her current life and she dislikes that .
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:05   Link #1947
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Well that wa interesting I expected Kaname to be a bit more shocked with Chisaki's age. Nope not at all. I really enjoyed how well Chisaki and Tsumugu work together in the kitchen they are totally like a couple Kaname is like... I can't wait for Tsumugu to break and reveal his feelings and confront Chisaki.

I found the transition from Miuna and Sayu's fight to Kaname really rushed I was sure I missed something. I like the fact that Sayu is aware that her feelings are very odd to hold a crush fro 5 years.

When Miuna offered to help I really liked that part makes her more proactive.

Wonder what they will find under the sea.
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@Leo_Otaku: nope, 2002 version in all its glory! To make it short it's definitely not my cup of tea. From every angle.
Oh god well now you have to give one of the newer adaption a try. Those 12 episodes were so rushed they made no sense. I would give Clannad a try or even Little Busters. That latter two have more comedy. Clannad has a larger cast and the ending wasn't portrayed as well as the Little Busters adaption. But i would give them a try. The 2002 Kanon should not be a comparative to KEY works. Even KEY wasn't happy with the 2002 adaption themselves.

Angel Beats would have been better if it were longer. It does have some good episodes, but as a whole it is much too rushed. Little Busters is the closest to Angel Beats. Many of us also believe that anohana inspired Little Busters, so you may like that one.

Last edited by Leo_Otaku; 2014-01-30 at 22:16.
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:17   Link #1948
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Keep in mind it's been said this show has a fairytale formula setting but is also a coming of age. It's not about who the character wants because they fished them up with a net accidentally, but about relationships that make them grow and give them a future together they become stronger for it. How circumstances change them because it's part of one's life and accepting those changes while remaining yourself.

It's been pretty sincere so far.
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:18   Link #1949
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Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku View Post
Well that wa interesting I expected Kaname to be a bit more shocked with Chisaki's age. Nope not at all.
I was expecting Chisaki to be surprised that Kaname is still alive actually. Screw continuity. Nobody ever mentions about the falling huge-ass pillar
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:22   Link #1950
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Reaaally? How? By completely ignoring Hikari until Hikari himself brought up how much he wants Manaka in this episode? She didn't even bother to go visit him, did she? All the times he is brought up, Chisaki clings to her personal dread of change (not Hikari himself, but he as symbol of the old life she no longer lives) and the only time she pays him attention is when he's speaking of Manaka (the only reason why she likes him). She's nostalgic, but sure she didn't jump into the sea for him or her old life in this episode, did she? Sure seems to be serious. That's why Kaname's sulking about Tsumugu as stated in the official episode summary.
She didn't visit him because she was afraid but you can tell it was on her mind. Which is why she asked Tsumugu that question about change but he didn't answer her properly but Hikari did when they finally met. Why do you think Tsumugu made that reaction when Hikari told him the reason he hasn't talked to Chisaki.Tsumugu knew then why she didn't visit Hikari. So dont make it sound like she could care less because she went rushing to Kaname even though she had no romantic feelings for him.
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:29   Link #1951
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Originally Posted by Hero of the day View Post
I was expecting Chisaki to be surprised that Kaname is still alive actually. Screw continuity. Nobody ever mentions about the falling huge-ass pillar
OH YEAH! I forgot about that too! XD. I had Another flashbacks with the pillar LOL! PA Works loves them If nobody has seen this scene please watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfwXbvWYaRA) best scene in that show. Totally! I would have thought he died. Everyone should have addressed that too.
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:31   Link #1952
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Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku View Post
OH YEAH! I forgot about that too! XD (I had Another flashbacks with the pillar LOL PA Works loves them If nobody has seen this scene please watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfwXbvWYaRA) Totally! I would have thought he died. Everyone should have addressed that too.
That is a fair point. Until we started seeing some timeskip promo pics I thought he was dead .
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:43   Link #1953
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Poor Kaname .
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:47   Link #1954
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Originally Posted by Kinali View Post
She didn't visit him because she was afraid but you can tell it was on her mind. Which is why she asked Tsumugu that question about change but he didn't answer her properly but Hikari did when they finally met. Why do you think Tsumugu made that reaction when Hikari told him the reason he hasn't talked to Chisaki.Tsumugu knew then why she didn't visit Hikari. So dont make it sound like she could care less because she went rushing to Kaname even though she had no romantic feelings for him.
Chisaki didn't visit him because she was afraid of admitting her own change and hurt him too. But after that meeting, unlike Tsumugu who delivered that uniform, she didn't seek him out at all nor we see her pinning about this matter. The only time we actually saw her love forlorn is when Hikari expresses his devotion to Manaka which makes sense because, quoting Chisaki, she's only interested in him when he loves Manaka. I'm sure she cares about him as childhood friend but she no longer sees him as a natural part of her life. Just like this episode show, she has her new life and he's not really part of it. Kaname feels like an outsider too, watching things unfold and trying to see how he fits in Chisaki's life.

Also, for the record, Hikari only answered a superficial question that shows Hikari doesn't know Chisaki at all (also he displayed this ignorance again when he assumed Kaname was the one who helped to fix the argument between Chisaki and Manaka in the first half when that was Tsumugu). Kaname, on the other hand, noticed Chisaki has changed while he was sleeping but he at first didn't want to believe it. She wanted to be a nurse now, which she didn't in the past, for example. This is how much she changed in the course of the years.

This episode puts in perspective that Tsumugu in that episode was wrong. He's the one with the real advantage in the love field with Chisaki. He's the one building unnecessary walls and I sure hope Kaname tears him a new one or family drama will.
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Old 2014-01-30, 22:58   Link #1955
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Seems like the village is in ruins, no surprise there.
And Hikari and Kaname are pretty sad.
Wonder if Uroko went batshit cause nobody talked to him for 5 years.
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Old 2014-01-30, 23:42   Link #1956
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
But after that meeting, unlike Tsumugu who delivered that uniform, she didn't seek him out at all nor we see her pinning about this matter.
I think she's busy with nursing school and taking care of Tsumugu's grandpa. She has a lot of responsibilities now compared before. That episode was about Hikari trying to adapt to his new middle school life anyway. A life where Chisaki doesn't belong anymore. Oh and Miuna's infatuation on Hikari too so I see no reason for Chisaki to be there.

Quote:
The only time we actually saw her love forlorn is when Hikari expresses his devotion to Manaka which makes sense because, quoting Chisaki, she's only interested in him when he loves Manaka
I'll be honest. I haven't really paid too much attention on Chisaki's development, but I've always thought that she was in love with Hikari for his character. I just find it ridiculous she's interested in him because he loves Manaka? How does that even work?

Quote:
Also, for the record, Hikari only answered a superficial question that shows Hikari doesn't know Chisaki at all (also he displayed this ignorance again when he assumed Kaname was the one who helped to fix the argument between Chisaki and Manaka in the first half when that was Tsumugu).
You know it doesn't have to be specific. It could have been way before they even met Tsumugu and started attending classes on the surface. As you can see in the tomoeibi flash back as kids they fought a lot. Someone had to make them kiss and make-up, and Hikari reveals it to be Kaname.

Quote:
This episode puts in perspective that Tsumugu in that episode was wrong. He's the one with the real advantage in the love field with Chisaki. He's the one building unnecessary walls and I sure hope Kaname tears him a new one or family drama will.
Yup that I agree with. Tsumugu's real rival is himself.

I'm sorry for butting in. I haven't read the previous pages so I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about in the first place. I just had to reply because I think you're over-thinking things.
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Old 2014-01-30, 23:44   Link #1957
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Also, for the record, Hikari only answered a superficial question that shows Hikari doesn't know Chisaki at all (also he displayed this ignorance again when he assumed Kaname was the one who helped to fix the argument between Chisaki and Manaka in the first half when that was Tsumugu). Kaname, on the other hand, noticed Chisaki has changed while he was sleeping but he at first didn't want to believe it. She wanted to be a nurse now, which she didn't in the past, for example. This is how much she changed in the course of the years.
I was under the assumption he was talking about when they were kids before they met Tsumugu. Although yes, it's true Tsumugu was taking on more of the mediator in the first half, Kaname was likely doing that when they were kids considering how rash and stubborn Hikari was before all the character development.
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Old 2014-01-31, 01:31   Link #1958
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Like many others, I wished this episode had focused more on Kaname and about what happened before the time skip.
Regardless I'm glad he's back and hope he gets one of the girls in the end. Whether it's Sayu or Chisaki.
I'm also really hoping the next episode, they might find Manaka, that's what it's looking like might happen. If not I'm rooting for Miuna all the way.

As for Chisaki, I feel bad for her but she also upsets me how she keeps clinging to Hikari, when she should know better by now. I'm also disappointed in how she has little to no reaction about Kaname still being alive, that or she's just bottling everything up and may eventually break down.
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Old 2014-01-31, 01:52   Link #1959
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I think she's busy with nursing school and taking care of Tsumugu's grandpa. She has a lot of responsibilities now compared before. That episode was about Hikari trying to adapt to his new middle school life anyway. A life where Chisaki doesn't belong anymore. Oh and Miuna's infatuation on Hikari too so I see no reason for Chisaki to be there.
Miuna's infatuation is being addressed as a highlight of this half. Chisaki's relationship with Tsumugu is what the official website summary and what Kaname in this episode focuses with. Hikari stopped being the focus relationship of Chisaki's character which had been a process that began in the first half of the show. The last scene with Chisaki does not involve Hikari, it involves Tsumugu and Kaname, for example. Time didn't stop for Chisaki. She continued on from this point.

Kaname is the one who realized Chisaki has changed when he's been sleeping. Meanwhile Miuna's said to be unchanged in the inside so far. We're being show Chisaki's changes unlike Miuna's. There's no basis for comparison between them. Let's not forget all Miuna lost was a crush she barely knew and all for her benefit. She earned a happy family life, while Chisaki lost a whole deal more than her first love that night. The development, the reaction and the circumstances are good to establish parallels.

Sayu's situation is more closer to Miuna's, same with Hikari's and Kaname's to each other.

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Originally Posted by Hero of the day View Post
I'll be honest. I haven't really paid too much attention on Chisaki's development, but I've always thought that she was in love with Hikari for his character. I just find it ridiculous she's interested in him because he loves Manaka? How does that even work?
Chisaki is the one who admitted to herself. She's in love with Hikari who is in love with Manaka, that's the source of her feelings. Of course it's ridiculous, that's why Kaname hardly even thought Hikari as a true rival while he's really threatened by Tsumugu. Because it's not real romantic love, IMO. She's using Hikari as a crutch for her fear of change.

How to say... While Hikari doesn't want to change because he loves Manaka, Chisaki 'loves' Hikari because she doesn't want to change. Yet she has changed and that was what Kaname realized. That's why a short scene of Chisaki hopelessly glancing at Hikari's direction when he spoke of Manaka is juxtaposed with her natural couple vibe with Tsumugu which was mutual. It's Kaname's worst nightmare. Poor boy.

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Originally Posted by Hero of the day View Post
You know it doesn't have to be specific. It could have been way before they even met Tsumugu and started attending classes on the surface. As you can see in the tomoeibi flash back as kids they fought a lot. Someone had to make them kiss and make-up, and Hikari reveals it to be Kaname.
The event that the audience has present as specific fight between them is what happened in the first half. But to be fair, it also shows how their close unit was completely broken by Tsumugu's appearance. He wormed his place there and what was in the past, it's no more.

That's also a theme and struggle for Miuna and Sayu in this episode. In the episode Chisaki met Hikari, it was Tsumugu and not Chisaki who was building the wall around them. He walked out, symbolically putting a wall between them, I'm giving you a visual example. He's under the belief he can't handle her past problems. But this episode shows us the opposite, since she met Hikari, Chisaki's not reconnecting with the past. Kaname is unsettled about her changes and feels isolated from her. I don't think Chisaki realizes it, though.

That's growing up.

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Yup that I agree with. Tsumugu's real rival is himself.

I'm sorry for butting in. I haven't read the previous pages so I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about in the first place. I just had to reply because I think you're over-thinking things.
Everyone's real rival is themselves, IMO. Except for maybe Hikari (and Manaka), because Manaka is truly out his reach in a physical way. The same can be applied to her. That said, it's plenty obvious that Tsumugu's needed to change his ways. But the vast of the majority of kids need to grow up. Unlike Miuna or Sayu, Tsumugu is part of the world of his loved one (potentially) but he doesn't realize it. That's why Kaname was added for the viewer to realize he's been misguided. Although there were subtle cues with Chisaki earlier. That's why he has more actual mutual progress with Chisaki than a clear one-sided feelings the girls have. But he had more time with her too, so it makes sense.

I understand I wasn't fair with the old bonds. I think they had a place in childhood and people who are now in their lives cannot replace that childhood. That's really important, looking back, there are irreplaceable things we want them to stay the same because an adult life and love is hurtful and not so 'innocent'. But what matters is the present and the future too.

With a character like Chisaki, she's begun to move forward the future. Manaka was taking these steps too. Can the rest actually follow up? I actually got into this discussion because I felt I had to defend Chisaki's trauma people dismiss as only romantic. The level and amount of loss she suffered that one night would have realistically left her shaken for years, so I feel Okada did something right with not choosing to hook up with Tsumugu even if it's natural for them to be together as couple. It's for them to address when they are emotionally ready for a relationship. A relationship between adults (they are 19 years old now) who share a house and live together cannot be the same as a crush you barely see. One implies a lot more of actual commitment and fear to mess up if it changes. I also believe Tsumugu also might keep his distance because of the sea exile threat that could be looming if they do hook up, he can't take away the sea and her sea family from Chisaki when he's working so she'll get them back. He's that kind of person. But... does Chisaki truly want to return? This episode was very enlightening in general.

They need to speak things. Tsumugu should make peace with the fact he can't replace Chisaki's past bonds, but he has to realize he's her present and potentially future. That's how I see this will go. There need to be an acknowledgement and acceptance to mature. I'll add something I forgot, Tsumugu and Chisaki relationship are in direct foil-for Sayu's and Miuna's relationship with the guys. They are trying to desperately to fit in their lives, after being observers for a long time (which has been a theme addressed by them since the second half began). Tsumugu, on the other hand as I reiterate my former point, is already part of that life. He just doesn't realize it. Kaname did when he observe them act like a married couple moving in the kitchen. He was the one who felt like an outsider.

Sayu is frozen, reluctant to take her steps towards Kaname. Miuna's bolder and wants to submerge in Hikari's world. Of course, she has the benefit of ena.
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Old 2014-01-31, 01:58   Link #1960
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There's no way a childhood crush can bear fruit? Clearly you don't know you're an Okada character, Sayu. Only question in this show is WHICH childhood crush wins out in the end. XD
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