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Old 2012-09-13, 12:35   Link #121
james0246
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Those are inconsistencies made only for the benefit of the readers to keep us off balance but in insight they just make no sense whatsoever.
I said something similar in a previous chapter thread. Kishimoto would have been better served to use dramatic irony to create tension for Tobi/Obito (as he tries to dupe the world) as well as creating drama for the characters trying to find out Tobi's identity (I'm reminded of the great mystery series Columbo, where the murderer is revealed in the opening act and the rest of the story is focused on how titular detective Columbo goes about finding the murderer all the while the murderer tries to throw the detective off their tracks). Sadly, such a story would have required smart writing and purposeful pacing (not to mention intelligent characters), all of which Kishimoto has problems with at times.

Whatever the case, by jumping through hoops in order to hide Tobi's identity (and then making the identity the first character everyone suspected he would be), Kishimoto really created a lackluster twist filled with glaring plot holes and missteps. As with much of Kishimoto's work, the intent is clear and even interesting, but the execution ultimately fails (or is kept at a level only a 12 year old could really appreciate).

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Originally Posted by Teru987 View Post
But Obito was not born when Nagato was a child. He awoke the rinnegan when he was a child there is no way that obito could have been alive during the second war. We know this already that he was born a few years before the third war. The only one that could have gave him the rinnegan was madara but i still dont see how he could give him his eyes and still have eyes when he met obito.
The whole giving eyes thing could be less specific than originally thought. Specifically, much the same as Itachi or Haku could be said to have "given" the Sharingan to Sasuke (since they helped to awaken the power), it could be that Madara created a sequence of events that awoke Nagato's eyes. Consequently, Madara would have "given" the Rinnegan to Nagato.
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Old 2012-09-13, 12:55   Link #122
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That could be one option but then that would mean that madara was pulling the string for every major event and that to me seems like a middle school kid wrote that.
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Old 2012-09-13, 12:59   Link #123
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Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
I just had a wild thought....


Spoiler:


What if Obito can SEE through Kakashi's eye?!

It is his eye after all.

That would explain how he knows about Rin's death. He didn't hear about it from a second hand source and he wasn't there but he SAW it. How does Obito know about Kakashi visiting his grave site? He's not in Konoha to witness it. I doubt he has Akatsuki spies watching his every move but if he can see through his eye he could spy on anything Kakashi witnesses. Now Kakashi only takes out his eye for battle so I don't know how Kishimoto would explain that one but it's not too farfetched that a ninja who has mastered Space-Time jutsu could possibly gain function of his lost eye implanted in someone elses body. Ninja have done even freakier things.

If this theory turns out to be true it could even explain how Obito gained knowledge of the secret location where Naruto was being born. Perhaps Kakashi was one of the only people entrusted with the location by Minato and Obito used this knowledge to his advantage.
i dont think he meant what he said.its just a figure of speech thats all.anyways my theory is its zetsu who saw everything.as we know zetsu is known to recored alot of important stuff.he can blend in with nature without being spotted because of his dna.thats how tobi gained info

i also think that madara is going to kill obito as soon as he gets what he wants.he was just using obito all this while.
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Old 2012-09-13, 14:53   Link #124
itachi-san314
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yea you guys are right... kishimoto is the worst writer of all time and only a 5 year old with 1 brain cell could possibly find this entertaining...

are you really that disheartened that your convoluted, random theories like kagami and rin and future sasuke and a conglomerate of all dead ninjas and whatever else would have been horrible didn't come true? if this outcome is so basic that everyone knew it, then why was I and a few others on this forum arguing for months and months about it being obito? the obito haters didn't say: yea it's going to be obito, but it would be sweet if it was izuna with rin's brain, kagami's eyes and the ramen guy's taint. most people flatly rejected the theory and called supporters of it idiots. now that it came true, you guys say that kishi is an idiot... it's getting really silly guys.

if you hate everything so much at least wait for all the revelations to pass before you downgrade this manga to kindergarten reading
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Old 2012-09-13, 15:10   Link #125
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I don't speak for everyone else, but up until the reveal I did think of the notion as rather silly because it really didn't make sense at the time for reasons I explained numerous times. I do find it disappointing that he went down this route again. That doesn't mean I chalk it up to bad writing though. At least not yet. I'm willing to wait for the entire explanation.
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Old 2012-09-13, 15:40   Link #126
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
are you really that disheartened that your convoluted, random theories like kagami and rin and future sasuke and a conglomerate of all dead ninjas and whatever else would have been horrible didn't come true? if this outcome is so basic that everyone knew it, then why was I and a few others on this forum arguing for months and months about it being obito? the obito haters didn't say: yea it's going to be obito, but it would be sweet if it was izuna with rin's brain, kagami's eyes and the ramen guy's taint. most people flatly rejected the theory and called supporters of it idiots. now that it came true, you guys say that kishi is an idiot... it's getting really silly guys.

if you hate everything so much at least wait for all the revelations to pass before you downgrade this manga to kindergarten reading

Ok First of all Obito falls into that category of dead ninja up until the last 2 chapters. Some people that didnt like the theory did say if is was going to be Obito it would be better if it was someone using his body. I had said that as well as others, so for you to sit there an say that all the "Obito haters" flat out rejected the possibility of it being Obito it is ridiculousness.

In the past few chapter it has been downgraded from a good story line that had people guessing to a very predictable an ill say it rather poor writing from someone that is suppose to great. I my self is disappointed right now. It would take a good twist for me to hold the manga as it was.
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Old 2012-09-13, 18:28   Link #127
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Originally Posted by Teru987 View Post
Ok First of all Obito falls into that category of dead ninja up until the last 2 chapters. Some people that didnt like the theory did say if is was going to be Obito it would be better if it was someone using his body. I had said that as well as others, so for you to sit there an say that all the "Obito haters" flat out rejected the possibility of it being Obito it is ridiculousness.

In the past few chapter it has been downgraded from a good story line that had people guessing to a very predictable an ill say it rather poor writing from someone that is suppose to great. I my self is disappointed right now. It would take a good twist for me to hold the manga as it was.
- no he doesn't becaaauuuuussssseee he never died...
- no its not...those ppl were harsh lol...i asked myself daily. why don't they see this?? (just kidding)
- come on. really. two chapters messed up 600 chapters for you...if you don't like the direction the author took fine, cool, thats whats up...but poor writing, when we have yet to read the complete explanation...
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Old 2012-09-13, 18:58   Link #128
MysticNinjaJay
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Obito doesn't think of himself as Madara. If he was deluded or under some jutsu influence that made him believe he was someone else or at least a part of someone else then there could be some sense into this but it doesn't look like it.
The fact that Obito no longer care about his former self -and the world in general for that matter- has no bearing on that. What is the point to say to Zetsu that Rine Tensei should have been used for him when they both know he is not Madara? To say to Kabuto he took Hashirama's celsl during their battle when, again, they both know he is not Madara? To say the same to a dying Konan? To shout at Kushina's dying face that she has no idea how long he has waited for this?
Remember when the Kyubi saw him and said "You...!" that's how it must be done : when you read this as face value it's the Kyubi recognizing Madara, in insight it could be the Kyubi recognizing Obito as Minato's student whom he had probably seen through Kushina's eyes. But even this one is inconsistant because with Kyubi and Naruto being instant best buddies why didn't the Kyubi said anything when they were all wondering his identity? Did he somehow forget the guy who set him on Konoha?

Those are inconsistencies made only for the benefit of the readers to keep us off balance but in insight they just make no sense whatsoever. Remember when Deva Path gave orders to the others Path just before his assault on Konoha? Same thing : the readers weren't yet told that those were just all puppets under a single mind and the author tried to make us keep guessing even if in insight the scene is absurd.
The difference is that it's one panel whereas there are scores of examples like this over the last 481 chapters for Tobito.
Obito is pretending to be Madara at all times so I don't think it's significant that Zetsu refers to Obito as Madara. Zetsu is crazy anyway. The first time Obito's cover was truly blown was when Kabuto showed him the coffin and Edo zombie of Uchiha Madara. This fact disturbed Obito because he wants the world to believe he is Madara. He wears a mask to hide from people who know what Madara looks like, the fact that he is not really Madara. Kabuto knew but decided to play along. He didn't know Obito's real identity but he served him to get to Sasuke. So if he told him something that still suggested that Tobi was Madara Kabuto took it with a grain of salt knowing the truth.

I don't think that Kyuubi knew who Obito was.

Maybe when he felt his chakra he was feeling Madara because of some jutsu Madara cast on Obito. We still don't know the relationship between Obito and Madara. What we know is that Obito was presumed dead when Kakashi and Rin left the battlefield, Obito reappears wearing a mask and exhibiting powers that suggest he is Madara. He claims to be Madara or orchestrates a plan that is actually Madara's plan and now his secret identity has been revealed. He is Obito and we'll find out more as the story progresses.
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Old 2012-09-13, 19:23   Link #129
james0246
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
yea you guys are right... kishimoto is the worst writer of all time and only a 5 year old with 1 brain cell could possibly find this entertaining...
Who said anything about Naruto not being entertaining? Just because I or others criticize the writing does not mean we do not find the work entertaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
are you really that disheartened that your convoluted, random theories like kagami and rin and future sasuke and a conglomerate of all dead ninjas and whatever else would have been horrible didn't come true? if this outcome is so basic that everyone knew it, then why was I and a few others on this forum arguing for months and months about it being obito? the obito haters didn't say: yea it's going to be obito, but it would be sweet if it was izuna with rin's brain, kagami's eyes and the ramen guy's taint. most people flatly rejected the theory and called supporters of it idiots. now that it came true, you guys say that kishi is an idiot... it's getting really silly guys
I have no idea what you are talking about. Most disliked the idea of Obito being Tobi simply because the idea was so simple and boring.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
if you hate everything so much at least wait for all the revelations to pass before you downgrade this manga to kindergarten reading
Naruto's primary readership age is 12. Tobi being Obito is simple yet complex enough for a 12 year old fan. Sadly, the vast majority of the forum goers are above the age of 12. Consequently, many disliked a twist that was so obvious from the start that another answer was sought.
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Old 2012-09-13, 19:38   Link #130
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
are you really that disheartened that your convoluted, random theories like kagami and rin and future sasuke and a conglomerate of all dead ninjas and whatever else would have been horrible didn't come true? if this outcome is so basic that everyone knew it, then why was I and a few others on this forum arguing for months and months about it being obito?
Months? The argument has been going on near half a decade (and boy, doesn't saying that make me feel old...). Not too long after Tobi's character introduced, people began suspecting he was Obito.

And I think a big problem was that the clues were very blatant from the beginning. It's almost as if Kishi realized that it was too obvious. The hairstyle. A mask that emphasizes a single eye on the side Obito's remaining Sharingan would be. The good-natured, clumsy personality (which Kishi quickly brushed off as an "act"). Instead of gradually dropping more subtle clues which would allow observant readers to piece together Tobi's true identity, it almost seems like Kishi had to backtrack and create a story that would throw everyone off track. The whole "Tobi is Madara" business made the earlier clues seemed like red herrings. People who still believed Tobi=Obito came off looking more like stubborn Obito fans than readers closely following the story. Then it turns out Tobi is Obito and it seems at once both extremely obvious and impossible

Though I still find the revealed relationship between Kakashi's MS and Tobi's phasing powers a pretty well done clue that suggests Kishi's planned this for awhile... the timeline of events is really a tangled mess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay View Post
Maybe when he felt his chakra he was feeling Madara because of some jutsu Madara cast on Obito. We still don't know the relationship between Obito and Madara. What we know is that Obito was presumed dead when Kakashi and Rin left the battlefield, Obito reappears wearing a mask and exhibiting powers that suggest he is Madara.
I think that's a possibility too. The Kyuubi also thought Sasuke's chakra felt similar to that of Madara's, it I remember correctly.
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Old 2012-09-13, 23:26   Link #131
itachi-san314
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Who said anything about Naruto not being entertaining? Just because I or others criticize the writing does not mean we do not find the work entertaining.
well i was purposely being hyperbolic in response to the people (like you) who are jumping to the conclusion of 'bad writing' before all is said and done. i'm not sure how 'bad writing' doesn't translate to 'not entertaining'. i personally am never entertained by what i think is bad writing, but apparently you are? personally i think that keeping us debating for so long and keeping the story interesting for so long is amazing writing. i also have no problem at all with people not liking obito or tobi being obito. i have a problem with people calling kishi a bad writer.

Quote:
I have no idea what you are talking about. Most disliked the idea of Obito being Tobi simply because the idea was so simple and boring.
the fact of the matter is that we dont know how simple or boring it will be until we know the whole story. again, you are jumping to conclusions. i think and hope it will turn out very cool, and certainly better than one of those convoluted theories i mentioned earlier. the only other reasonable theory was izuna (which btw could just as easily be described as simple and boring)

Quote:
Naruto's primary readership age is 12. Tobi being Obito is simple yet complex enough for a 12 year old fan. Sadly, the vast majority of the forum goers are above the age of 12. Consequently, many disliked a twist that was so obvious from the start that another answer was sought.
i know and understand that kishi markets to all ages which is another reason i thought the obito theory would pan out. namely because it had to have been a character that would have that surprise appeal. izuna and future sasuke also worked for that ideal but not as well as obito imho. and again it wasn't obvious. i was arguing since i joined this forum with people who refused to believe it could be obito.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Months? The argument has been going on near half a decade (and boy, doesn't saying that make me feel old...). Not too long after Tobi's character introduced, people began suspecting he was Obito.
i know. i have believed it for years too, just check out my fanart on dA for proof. i was just referring to my time here on this forum which i joined months ago.

Quote:
And I think a big problem was that the clues were very blatant from the beginning. It's almost as if Kishi realized that it was too obvious. The hairstyle. A mask that emphasizes a single eye on the side Obito's remaining Sharingan would be. The good-natured, clumsy personality (which Kishi quickly brushed off as an "act"). Instead of gradually dropping more subtle clues which would allow observant readers to piece together Tobi's true identity, it almost seems like Kishi had to backtrack and create a story that would throw everyone off track. The whole "Tobi is Madara" business made the earlier clues seemed like red herrings. People who still believed Tobi=Obito came off looking more like stubborn Obito fans than readers closely following the story. Then it turns out Tobi is Obito and it seems at once both extremely obvious and impossible
i see what you're saying and it may very well be true. still though, the mystery wasn't just for us, it was for the characters too, particularly kakashi, similar to how pain/nagato was a mystery for both us and jiraiya. so even if we knew it would obito we still could watch kakashi's plight of revelation and be entertained by his experience.

Quote:
Though I still find the revealed relationship between Kakashi's MS and Tobi's phasing powers a pretty well done clue that suggests Kishi's planned this for awhile... the timeline of events is really a tangled mess.
yea i particularly like the kamui connection as well. and yea, i do hope the timeline isn't massively destroyed by all this. it already looks bleak with that hokage monument and chuunin ages. nobody is saying the manga is flawless. and i still am in wonder of how this stuff passes the editing room...
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Old 2012-09-14, 00:06   Link #132
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i personally am never entertained by what i think is bad writing, but apparently you are?
Transformers is entertaining. The Matrix is entertaining. Fast & Furious is entertaining. Avatar is entertaining. Etc. And all have bad to ridiculous writing. Something doesn't have to be perfect to be watchable and entertaining, it need only have a good idea; some decent pacing; and a modicum of tension, drama, comedy or romance (action certainly helps); and a few other subjective qualities. I find Naruto entertaining because the core idea is fun, the characters are generally interesting (though most/vast majority are fairly one dimensional), the drawing is good to great, and the action sequences are generally some of the best in Shounen Jump.

Additionally, generally speaking I see Kishimoto as a good storyteller, not a good writer. I am interested in the story he is trying to tell, I just often find the actual story to be badly plotted, ill-paced, rife with inconsistencies and sometimes simply annoying. But, it is still entertaining.
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Old 2012-09-14, 00:46   Link #133
itachi-san314
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Additionally, generally speaking I see Kishimoto as a good storyteller, not a good writer. I am interested in the story he is trying to tell, I just often find the actual story to be badly plotted, ill-paced, rife with inconsistencies and sometimes simply annoying. But, it is still entertaining.
fair enough

just a small point, but mangas aren't like novels in that we don't really see any 'writing'. they are more like storyboards with dialogue so in a sense all we see is kishimoto's story-telling, not really his writing in the classical sense of it. so honestly i'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say that you like his story-telling and not his writing.

i totally agree on the entertaining movie aspect you brought up but like you said it's much more the action and effects than the writing that is entertaining in those cases. i disagree with you to an extent on the matrix (i think the first one was really good writing actually ~keanu's performance aside), but the other films have bad writing and a bad story. its purely the action that drives them. i wouldn't put naruto on their level at all. naruto's story and writing is quite good as far as i am concerned. of course, we are all entitled to our opinion
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Old 2012-09-14, 03:57   Link #134
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The Matrix is brilliant writing - though not at all original. Naruto is similar in that aspect.
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Old 2012-09-14, 04:22   Link #135
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kk something i would like clarified.

Madara says that the naruto there is a bunshin, at first it was assumed that the real naruto was saving killer bee, but reading closer, it fully shows that the madara claims is a bunshin grows kyuubi tails when asking about the kages, then uses those tails to grab the stakes and hurl them at madara

so it is also this proclaimed bunshin that saves killer bee, and then attacks madara's mirror fan (as if madara really needed a power up) and obliterates the bunshin

so.... where's original flavor naruto at?
*also judging by kakashi's reaction panel afterwards, it makes me wonder... what if the real naruto was kamui'd into the other dimension and it was the bunshin firing the bijuudama

in which case naruto will fuse sage mode and perfect kyuubii mode, to activate rikudo mode and break out of the dimension, a la super buu scream style
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Old 2012-09-14, 06:46   Link #136
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kk something i would like clarified.

Madara says that the naruto there is a bunshin, at first it was assumed that the real naruto was saving killer bee, but reading closer, it fully shows that the madara claims is a bunshin grows kyuubi tails when asking about the kages, then uses those tails to grab the stakes and hurl them at madara

so it is also this proclaimed bunshin that saves killer bee, and then attacks madara's mirror fan (as if madara really needed a power up) and obliterates the bunshin

so.... where's original flavor naruto at?
*also judging by kakashi's reaction panel afterwards, it makes me wonder... what if the real naruto was kamui'd into the other dimension and it was the bunshin firing the bijuudama

in which case naruto will fuse sage mode and perfect kyuubii mode, to activate rikudo mode and break out of the dimension, a la super buu scream style
Hey,

Screenshot of one of the panels, birdseye view:

http://snag.gy/pIva2.jpg
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Old 2012-09-14, 09:33   Link #137
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Hey,

Screenshot of one of the panels, birdseye view:

http://snag.gy/pIva2.jpg
ahh i see it now, after reading teh past chapter and looking closer i can see the bunshin in front of kakashi and gai in the earlier panels, thanks
it also explains how naruto attacked madara, i was actually impressed that he appparently had jumped from in front of killer bee, past gai and kakashi to attack madara in basically a split panel

why can madara tell the difference between the original and the kb bunshin though? -__-
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Old 2012-09-14, 10:11   Link #138
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^Because he is Madara. Does there need to be another excuse?
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Old 2012-09-14, 10:28   Link #139
violentken
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Originally Posted by Lunarskylar View Post
ahh i see it now, after reading teh past chapter and looking closer i can see the bunshin in front of kakashi and gai in the earlier panels, thanks
it also explains how naruto attacked madara, i was actually impressed that he appparently had jumped from in front of killer bee, past gai and kakashi to attack madara in basically a split panel

why can madara tell the difference between the original and the kb bunshin though? -__-
At the risk of going off-topic, was it ever confirmed that the Sharingan can deduce kage bushins from the real person?

As Kakashi didn't even realise that the Naruto in front of him is a clone, I would hazard a guess to say it was the Rinnegan but I feel this is not confirmed neither-

1. AFAIK, Nagato never mentions anything about it but feel free to correct me. Can't recall a moment when he's been duped by Naruto or saw through the clone.
2. In ch598, after Obito kamui-stakes the rasengan clone, he mutters "Just a kage bushin..." and he has a Rinnegan. Whether that comment was due to surprise or he was just saying (I think unlikely) is debatable.
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Old 2012-09-14, 10:54   Link #140
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personal theories

I personally believe that Madara is the mastermind behind everything. Zetsu IS the living spirit of the planet. Obito was either INJURED or teleported his "crushed" half to his pocket dimension hence he couldn't feel it. Madara then trained him in the ways of the Sharingan. Obito awakening his Mangekyo is probably the cause of Kakashi gaining his. Obito MAY be able to "see" through Kakashi's eye, but not likely. I think he knew Rin died in the way he can "locate anyone and teleport to their location." Obito was so distraught about Kabuto bringing Madara back, because that means he can't be revived through the Rinne-Tensei revival(Rinnegan technique Nagato used to revive Konoha) because his soul is already in use. Doing this forced Obito to protect Kabuto; because if he were killed, then the soul could never be released, only sealed.

These are my personal theories, and there's a lot of evidence to support them! Thanks for reading!
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