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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 22 [END] Rating
Perfect 10 86 57.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 26.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 8.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.33%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.33%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.67%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-19, 13:25   Link #141
zRichard
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
You know, it occurred to me that Houtarou being a businessman may make him one heck of a magnificent bastard. If his wheelings and dealings in school are any indication... A jerkass protagonist if you will. Even better if Irisu becomes a "friendly" competitor.

Irisu: "Don't take it personally. It's just business"
Houtarou: "IRISUUUU!"

She'll ask for some little "convincing" if you know what I mean. Chitanda Houtarou, satisfying curiosity one chick at the time.
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Old 2012-09-19, 14:42   Link #142
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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
This small scene, like so many others, was freighted with meaning for me--it shows that Oreki, when he wants to be, can be a part of Chitanda's formal and ritualized world, and I think it was a trial run of when he does have to meet Chitanda's real father. The way he replies also shows how Oreki still hasn't come to terms with his own competence and abilities--what caused him to hesitate in making that offer at the end. All issues that will be resolved, I'm sure, in the future in good time.
I don't think that it was a trial run. I think the old man was just measuring Oreki's ability to be responsible - can't have just any kid having a major role in the festival. And he really measured Oreki, from what he said to how long he held his kowtow. It was amusing to see the other adults in the room were also relieved when Oreki passed muster.

I also got the feeling that the old man trusted Oreki's news about the bridge construction, more so than Hanai did. Probably means that Houtarou's going to become an annual "volunteer," though.
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Old 2012-09-19, 17:40   Link #143
orion
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I loved the animation, and Chitanda's lines (spoken and visual ) were as great as ever, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to take the extreme minority position and say no, I didn't care for this episode... What can I say? As I get older, I'm less and less tolerant of male lead roles in most anime.

In years past I never picked up on it, nor did it bother me, but these days I'm highly annoyed by internal dialog for things best spoken, indecisiveness that causes pain for others, or conflict avoidance when it's best to stand your ground regardless of your opponent's title/status. Yes, yes, I know much of it is probably cultural, but that doesn't stop me from yelling at my TV like a moron. Beta male leads that display all the testicular fortitude of a wet sandwich make my spine twist in knots.

There are refreshing exceptions to the rule though... For example, Otonashi from Angel Beats was a man's man. He really pulled out the big guns at the end, and I admire that.
Well to each their own but...

It was way too early for Oreki to be proposing to Chitanda. They're not even on first name basis yet, haven't gone on a real date yet, not met the parents...

If he had proposed at that moment, the family would have thought that he was after their money.
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Old 2012-09-19, 20:29   Link #144
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I don't think that it was a trial run. I think the old man was just measuring Oreki's ability to be responsible - can't have just any kid having a major role in the festival. And he really measured Oreki, from what he said to how long he held his kowtow. It was amusing to see the other adults in the room were also relieved when Oreki passed muster.

I also got the feeling that the old man trusted Oreki's news about the bridge construction, more so than Hanai did. Probably means that Houtarou's going to become an annual "volunteer," though.
I didn't think anyone in the story intended for it to be a trial run, but that it was a way for the viewer to see how Oreki would deal with an older and responsible man, for precisely the reasons you laid out. And this could be reasonably seen as a preview for when he has to meet Chitanda's parents.
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Old 2012-09-20, 00:50   Link #145
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It was way too early for Oreki to be proposing to Chitanda. They're not even on first name basis yet, haven't gone on a real date yet, not met the parents...
Isn't some sort of confession usually the first step toward first name basis and actual dates? hmm...

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If he had proposed at that moment, the family would have thought that he was after their money.
Yeah, good point.

Speaking of family, unless I had my head up my butt through part of the series, Oreki's family seemed pretty mysterious.
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Old 2012-09-20, 07:40   Link #146
orion
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Isn't some sort of confession usually the first step toward first name basis and actual dates? hmm...
Saying stuff like " I like you alot..." is the confession. Saying stuff like he did was a proposal. People who are just starting to date don't offer to take over the business side of the family business. That doesn't happen unless you marry into the family, engaged into the family or are a member of the family and know your stuff.
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:20   Link #147
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I think Oreki even imagining his proposal speaks volumes on how he feels about Chitanda.

The show ended beautifully, but I'm certainly sad to see it ending. The open ending makes sense, considering the ages of the characters. How many of us knew how our lives were going to turn out when we were 16?
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:24   Link #148
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I think Oreki even imagining his proposal speaks volumes on how he feels about Chitanda.
Yeah, now that I've had more time to think about it, I guess it was pretty good stuff.
I'd be much more satisfied if I saw the next 5 years though.
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:49   Link #149
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Chitanda is the same as Oreki. She admires him but she didn't go all Alpha Female on him either.

Oreki likes her enough to change his own lifestyle. And Eru likes him enough to lay bare everything about her and show it him.
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Old 2012-09-20, 13:51   Link #150
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I would love to see Houtarou's reaction to an "official" date.

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Old 2012-09-20, 14:24   Link #151
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Saying stuff like " I like you alot..." is the confession. Saying stuff like he did was a proposal. People who are just starting to date don't offer to take over the business side of the family business. That doesn't happen unless you marry into the family, engaged into the family or are a member of the family and know your stuff.
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I would love to see Houtarou's reaction to an "official" date.

In a sense, isn't skipping the whole dating thing and just getting married a more efficient and energy conserving way of doing things? By ep. 22, Houtarou knows he's attracted to Chitanda and has feelings for her; he just doesn't know if he's willing to be her husband and chief-executive for life. If he never gets to that point, dating would just be a waste of energy and effort.

Of course, for normal couples, dating is the way people figure out whether or not lifelong commitment makes sense, while having some fun. But Houtarou's sheer indifference to "fun" makes dating onerous, and the whole issue of finding out whether or not he's ready for commitment can be handled just by continuing to spend time with her.

Of course, I'm not sure if Chitanda will let him operate this way.
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Old 2012-09-20, 17:24   Link #152
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Oreki likes her enough to change his own lifestyle. And Eru likes him enough to lay bare everything about her and show it him.
Pretty much. Chitanda has been inviting Oreki further and further into her life outside of school, and Oreki doesn't even complain when asked to do her a big favor by the end of the series. It may not sound like much, but contrast that with him formulating a decoy mystery in the first episode for fear that she might make him take a longer route to the school exit at the end of the day. Neither of them are stupid. Surely they're both fully aware of what this feeling-out process could lead to, and it hasn't stopped either of them yet.

I think there is absolutely a relationship upgrade in Hyouka. It just unfolds over the course of 22 episodes rather than in a single scene in an otherwise empty classroom at sunset.

Last edited by ThereminVox; 2012-09-20 at 17:55.
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Old 2012-09-20, 17:37   Link #153
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In a sense, isn't skipping the whole dating thing and just getting married a more efficient and energy conserving way of doing things? By ep. 22, Houtarou knows he's attracted to Chitanda and has feelings for her; he just doesn't know if he's willing to be her husband and chief-executive for life. If he never gets to that point, dating would just be a waste of energy and effort.

Of course, for normal couples, dating is the way people figure out whether or not lifelong commitment makes sense, while having some fun. But Houtarou's sheer indifference to "fun" makes dating onerous, and the whole issue of finding out whether or not he's ready for commitment can be handled just by continuing to spend time with her.

Of course, I'm not sure if Chitanda will let him operate this way.
You know, you honestly might have a point there.

While going straight from "friendship" to "Will you marry me?" would seem like utter insanity to most people, there could be some rationale to it from Oreki's standpoint.

I don't think that Oreki would have much interest in dating for its own sake. And if it's just a means to an end, why not just skip straight to the end (this I think would be Oreki's rationale)? I recall Oreki once briefly talking about his love for the word "shortcut".

Oreki is now much more willing to take part in activities that require time and effort, but he's still a very practical person, I think. In other words, he won't spend time doing something unless he sees a clear and practical purpose in it.
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Old 2012-09-20, 21:35   Link #154
Aquifina
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You know, you honestly might have a point there.

While going straight from "friendship" to "Will you marry me?" would seem like utter insanity to most people, there could be some rationale to it from Oreki's standpoint.

I don't think that Oreki would have much interest in dating for its own sake. And if it's just a means to an end, why not just skip straight to the end (this I think would be Oreki's rationale)? I recall Oreki once briefly talking about his love for the word "shortcut".

Oreki is now much more willing to take part in activities that require time and effort, but he's still a very practical person, I think. In other words, he won't spend time doing something unless he sees a clear and practical purpose in it.
One of the wonderful things about this series is how it shows that emotions like love (and I'm willing to use it in this case) may have a fundamental common core among different personality types, but that it will express itself in different ways, depending on the individual person involved.

In ep. 21, Oreki says frankly he doesn't feel things the same way as Chitanda does--and he doesn't. Final scene notwithstanding, he'll always be rather gray, usually with that indifferent scowl on his face. I think the lesson he took from the fate of Chitanda's uncle was that while the rose colored lifestyle might have its good points, his gray colored world had its strengths--namely his ability to see the truth at the core of every situation, no matter how ugly it was. And that's borne out later. For Hyouka's upbeat tone, a lot of the mystery plots had sad endings--Chitanda's uncle's secret resentment; his sad but wise advice to her; the deception of Oreki himself during the film arc; the failed attempt to communicate during the festival arc; even the deaths of the mountaineers, despite that english teacher's brief moment of hope when he saw the helicopters.

Who better to deal with the truth than gray colored Oreki, who seems so difficult to move emotionally? And who better to make the best of sad situation, whether it be restoring Chitanda's memories of her uncle, no matter how tinged with sadness they are, or selling anthologies via blackmail, or finding the white lie to calm Chitanda down at the end of ep. 21, without completely shattering Satoshi's fragile illusion?

But Oreki *does* care about Chitanda--and it goes beyond his obvious physical attraction her (which, btw, he seems to feel for no other girl). The imagined confession was so Oreki--deeply pragmatic, and bluntly honest--taking into account Chitanda's honest and accurate self-criticism of her own failings, but also offering a solution to those problems. And a willingness to over-ride his own cherished philosophy of energy conversation for her sake. Coming from him, it was pragmatism turned into poetry, but they only had that meaning coming from him. And I think Chitanda would have recognized it for what they meant, which is why they're a good match--and I believe she had more than an inkling that he thought something along those lines, even though the words proved too powerful to be uttered at that moment.
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Old 2012-09-20, 21:36   Link #155
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While going straight from "friendship" to "Will you marry me?" would seem like utter insanity to most people, there could be some rationale to it from Oreki's standpoint.
A few other misc. points about this:

1. Eru comes from a major family in rural Japan, so (as we see) there's a lot of tradition involved there too. I'm not sure her family has much use for casual dating either; it probably wasn't too many generations back that they were still doing arranged marriages (and who knows -- they may still if she didn't manage to find anyone and was seeking a partner; it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility even today). I think they would only expect Eru to consider a relationship with someone who's a candidate for marriage, because her life is going to be steeped in responsibility anyway.

2. For all intents and purposes, all the time Houtarou is spending with Eru now might as well count as dating. He is certainly spending a lot of one-on-one time with her, and in the process getting to know the way she thinks (and vice-versa). After this episode, there isn't a whole lot of mystery left about her dreams and aspirations. She's about as open a book to him as she can be, for the most part. So yeah, as you went on to say, what's the point? All the "romantic stuff" they can just as easily do when they're engaged or after they're married.

Basically, if you want to look at it this way, you could say that this entire 22 episode show is Eru courting Houtarou. In the last episode, she basically extends her offer, and now she is waiting for Houtarou to respond.
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Old 2012-09-21, 07:46   Link #156
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In the last episode, she basically extends her offer, and now she is waiting for Houtarou to respond
With the show's taste for parallelisms and Satoshi's situation, I'm not so sure about it being very "hopeful" about the characters anymore. It might be closer to a "5cm" situation than it seems.

After all, as someone said above, a lot of the situations in this show were flat out sad- mundane and irrelevant compared to what we normally see in fiction (and anime especially), but still sad at their core. The ones that weren't were normally bittersweet, leaning more on the bitter side.
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Old 2012-09-21, 08:48   Link #157
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With the show's taste for parallelisms and Satoshi's situation, I'm not so sure about it being very "hopeful" about the characters anymore. It might be closer to a "5cm" situation than it seems.

After all, as someone said above, a lot of the situations in this show were flat out sad- mundane and irrelevant compared to what we normally see in fiction (and anime especially), but still sad at their core. The ones that weren't were normally bittersweet, leaning more on the bitter side.
Depends on how you see it. Throughout the series we see Oreki as a person that feeds on information, and from it, will think of what is the best solution for any mystery. And as we saw the solution for his little 'mystery' was staying by Chitanda's side, helping her with her future. Sure, he might not say his solution out loud, but he might stick with it.

I kinda hate 5cm as now everything bittersweet will automatically will use that as a barometer for an ending. Hyouka was and is different from 5cm. The location, situation and most importantly characters are different and thus you can't take Oreki and Chitanda and place them in a 5cm world and say "oh look, it will turn out like this". As pointed above, most of the time Oreki and Chitanda spends their time in the clubroom together, oft off camera, and oft without Satoshi or Mayaka as they have their own clubs.
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Old 2012-09-21, 15:43   Link #158
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As great visually as it is, I think that the story in 5cm does not really make sense.
Spoiler for 5cm ending:


If and when Hyouka want to have a sad ending, I trust that the author will take time to show how they grew apart. What I predict (and hope) will happen, however, is Houtarou's journey to get there by her side. He has both obstacles in the form of his old lifestyle and Eru's family status.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-09-21 at 18:08. Reason: added spoiler tag for specifics
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Old 2012-09-21, 21:14   Link #159
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As great visually as it is, I think that the story in 5cm does not really make sense.
Spoiler for 5cm ending:
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-09-21, 21:52   Link #160
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With the show's taste for parallelisms and Satoshi's situation, I'm not so sure about it being very "hopeful" about the characters anymore. It might be closer to a "5cm" situation than it seems.

After all, as someone said above, a lot of the situations in this show were flat out sad- mundane and irrelevant compared to what we normally see in fiction (and anime especially), but still sad at their core. The ones that weren't were normally bittersweet, leaning more on the bitter side.
The mystery stories are frequently sad--very much so, and many of the show's themes have the darkness that is part and parcel of regular human life--but the core of Chitanda and Oreki's relationship always seems positive. For example, when she finally remembers her uncle's advice, she weeps--it's clearly a sad moment, due to what her uncle went through--but she also smiles, because it's truly bittersweet--she now knows the truth, and the smile is as much for Oreki for finding out the truth, as it is for being able to say goodbye to her uncle properly.

The same goes for the final scene, where she seems genuinely melancholic about her fate to some degree--but even without the confession, she smiles and says spring is coming, and a gust of wind confirms her statement. And Oreki smiles also--Nature takes on a life of its own in that last episode, and it confirms the generally hopeful cast of the ending, so I don't think we should associate the sadder parts of the plot with the fate of Oreki and Chitanda.
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