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Old 2012-09-26, 00:10   Link #401
Ithekro
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Eh. Japan had the islands from 1895 to 1945 when the Americans took them over by force (since they were considered part of Okinawa, the islands went with that occupation). The Potdam Declaration was the terms of the surrender of Japan (which were modified a little before the war ended). Then the two treaties mentioned before was the final resolution of Japan's holding and other arrangements that ended the "anti-fascist war" as the Chinese nationalist seem to have started to call it. Those were in 1951 and 1952. By 1952 the US administered the Senkaku Islands as it was attached with their holding of Okinawa, which they held for twenty years following those treaties.

In 1971, when the US went to hand back Okinawa to Japan (as it was unlikely the old Kingdom from before Japan's annexation could survive in the Cold War even if they could find a sovereign for that kingdom), the islands under administration from Okinawa since the 1890s went with it. Since the islands were not linked to Formoasa under the newer treaties and by the 1970s there was no way the NATO allied nations were going to just hand territory over to the Communists (the Vietnam War still going on) the whole of it went to Japan...the last owner before the Americans came. By 1978 and the peace/friendship between the Communist Chinese and Japan the item of those islands was tabled for those in the future that might be wiser than those present in those days.



However, if they could prove the ancient lands arguement (and quite honestly I don't think the can with anything meaningful), there would be a double standard between China and Israel when it comes to the idea of someone claiming (successfully) their ancient lands. Though Israel (or more accurately the more rabid Zionist) claim Jordan as part of their territorial rights.

With the way the stance of the Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, and Americans are right now, I doubt the islands will shift to China in any official capacity without actual warfare. Japan isn't particularly backing down, nor are they militarily escalated things yet. The Chinese and Taiwanese have not got the military route yet, but the number of incidents has increased. Add to this the American's non-stance on who have sovereignty on the islands, but places them firmly under Japanese juristiction and therefore US protection should things got full on combatant. Means that if China wants them badly...they are going to have to fight for them.
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Old 2012-09-26, 01:41   Link #402
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
China tells Japan disputed islands "sacred Chinese territory"
Quote:
Xinhua's brief report said Yang reiterated China's "solemn position on the issue of Diaoyu Islands, which have been China's sacred territory since ancient times".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Sacred for what reason? Sacred ground has religious significance, or a place where one buries their ancestors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Soul View Post
Now it just looks like they're grasping at straws.
I'm afraid that this is a case of mistranslation into English, something that happens often enough in Western media to be irritating at best, and downright dangerous at worst.

(For example, all the many corny Hollywood scripts that have "Chinese" characters addressing each as "The Honourable so-and-so". Yes, honorifics are used in Chinese, but they are meant to be terms of respect used when addressing one's elders or social betters. They really shouldn't be translated that way in English.)

Though the original Chinese text was not included in the Reuters report, my guess would be that Beijing used the phrase 神圣 (shen2 sheng4 in pinyin) to describe its sovereign rights.

A statement to the same effect might have been written this way:
祖国领土神圣不可侵犯。
(zu3 guo2 ling3 tu2 shen2 sheng4 bu4 ke3 qin1 fan4)

A direct translation into English would be:
"The sovereignty of the fatherland is sacred and must not be violated."

Such a translation might be literally correct but, unfortunately, it's figuratively wrong and hopelessly off-key given the diplomatic context.

It's meant to be a very strong, very firm statement, yes, but it's not meant to sound as jingoistic as it does in the direct English translation. It's customary, for example, to refer to one's native country as 祖国 (zu3 guo2) in Chinese. Unfortunately, that translates into Fatherland, which, in a Western context, brings up memories of Fascist Germany or Stalinist Russia.

It carries no such connotation in Chinese, however. It's merely a very formal term that has been in use for hundreds of years. A softer, less formal version of the term might be 我国 (wo3 guo2), for example, which literally means "my country".

I highly suspect that a better, more figuratively accurate word for "sacred" in the Reuters report would be "inalienable". Beijing probably wanted to say that China's sovereign rights are "inalienable". There's nothing controversial about such a statement. Any sovereign nation would make the same claim.
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Old 2012-09-26, 02:48   Link #403
aohige
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Well

Regardless


Pile of uninhabitable rocks off in middle of ocean ain't no 祖国 to anyone.
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Old 2012-09-26, 02:50   Link #404
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Oh come on, you can't say about Dokdo or the Northern Territories.
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Old 2012-09-26, 03:01   Link #405
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I couldn't give two rats about Takejima/Dokudo, which are also bunch of rocks.
But Northern Territories are actually inhabitable huge islands. Like Hawaii sizes.

Not at all comparable.

The Senkaku isles are bunch of rocks. In nowhere. It ain't no fatherland to anyone but some seaweed and fungus.
Their only significance is sealines and resources in the ocean floor.
Pretty much the same deal with Dokudo isles.

Northern Territories are hundreds, thousands times bigger, inhabitable islands.
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Old 2012-09-26, 03:13   Link #406
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I'm pretty sure my sarcasm didn't quite get through. Although strictly saying, I don't see a difference between the Northern Territories and Dokdo, but that's just me.
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Old 2012-09-26, 03:28   Link #407
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I don't see a difference between the Northern Territories and Dokdo, but that's just me.
Iturup isle 3185.65 kmē
Kunashir isle 1490 kmē

Dokudo isle 0.23 kmē

Iturup is large, and couple of thousand people actually live on that island.
Dokudo is... well, as you can see, a pair of rocks.

They're not at all the same problem.

EDIT: And getting back to the point, there are thosands of Ainu people that can say Iturup or Kunashir is their "homeland" or "fatherland"
While the same cannot be said about Senkaku or Takeshima (Dokudo).
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Old 2012-09-26, 08:15   Link #408
willx
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^ Well, those are some of the criticisms leveled at certain western powers. Colonialism and imperialism got stopped after they got to build their spheres of influence. They then shut the game down so no one else could play.

That doesn't mean however that there is that much hesitance to use military force amongst the more hawkish members of government. They just have to have an excuse. Cue the right-wing think tank dude on the "News Stories" thread.. I wonder at what point do troops get sent onto the island from either side? And is this the event that drives Taiwan into the arms of China? I think only if the U.S. firmly sides with Japan, which I don't see it doing.
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Old 2012-09-26, 09:01   Link #409
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On the topic of the dangers of poor translations, this opinion piece was published in Singapore English-language broadsheet The Straits Times on Sept 25 (Tue). It doesn't claim to explain everything there is to know about the dispute, but it does add interesting insight into the issue.

Sino-Japan ties: Lost in translation
Spoiler for length:

For a more humorous example of just how far the Chinese and Japanese languages have diverged despite similar writing forms, consider the word 勉強 benkyo. In Japanese, it means "to study".

In Chinese, it literally means mian qiang, that is, "to force someone".

Somewhere, sometime in distant Japanese history, some Fujiwara nobleman must have much preferred to play than to hit the books...
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Old 2012-09-26, 09:07   Link #410
willx
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^ @TinyRedLeaf -- in the interest of journalistic integrity, I think you should actually email that comment above to Reuters in regards to their story. You'd likely get them to review it and potentially make a revision. I didn't bother going through the article itself since I'm kind of not actively participating in this discussion, so I'm somewhat guilty of just linking obliviously..

In related news:

Japan opposition gives ex-PM Abe second chance amid China feud

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...88P02620120926

(Reuters) - Japan's main opposition party picked former prime minister and security hawk Shinzo Abe as its new leader, giving him another shot at the premiership and possibly alarming Beijing and Seoul, both locked in territorial disputes with Tokyo.
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Old 2012-09-26, 09:25   Link #411
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ @TinyRedLeaf -- in the interest of journalistic integrity, I think you should actually email that comment above to Reuters in regards to their story. You'd likely get them to review it and potentially make a revision. I didn't bother going through the article itself since I'm kind of not actively participating in this discussion, so I'm somewhat guilty of just linking obliviously...
Meh, for every "mistake" I point out in Reuters copy, it could probably spot a hundred in local Singapore news stories. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I wouldn't mind if Reuters offers to hire me to as a copyeditor though...
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Old 2012-09-26, 09:52   Link #412
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Meh, for every "mistake" I point out in Reuters copy, it could probably spot a hundred in local Singapore news stories. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I wouldn't mind if Reuters offers to hire me to as a copyeditor though...
I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, unless you're a local Singaporean journalist? Maybe you SHOULD apply to do copy at Reuters?

That being said, Singapore eh? My junior analyst is from Singapore. I've become interested in it lately as maybe a neat place to work. My firm does all of its global trade finance operations out of there!

Oh, and to stay on topic, here's a random story on recent Chinese military developments: (I love Defense Tech btw, interesting blog with some very very "wise" viewers .. and some nutjobs)

China said Monday that it plans to use unmanned drones to conduct marine surveillance by 2015 as it tries to increase its presence around uninhabited East China Sea islands at the center of a dispute with Japan

http://defensetech.org/2012/09/24/ch...nitor-islands/
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Old 2012-09-26, 12:01   Link #413
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, unless you're a local Singaporean journalist? Maybe you SHOULD apply to do copy at Reuters?

That being said, Singapore eh? My junior analyst is from Singapore. I've become interested in it lately as maybe a neat place to work. My firm does all of its global trade finance operations out of there!

Oh, and to stay on topic, here's a random story on recent Chinese military developments: (I love Defense Tech btw, interesting blog with some very very "wise" viewers .. and some nutjobs)

China said Monday that it plans to use unmanned drones to conduct marine surveillance by 2015 as it tries to increase its presence around uninhabited East China Sea islands at the center of a dispute with Japan

http://defensetech.org/2012/09/24/ch...nitor-islands/
He works for the government the local press holdings.

Singapore is a fantastic place to work....if you have money. Most of the cash in SEA passes through here to the rest of the world and vice versa because we hired OCD patients to run our graft police, having a coffee session with them is not recommended.

As for the Chinese drones, I wonder if they would actually deploy armed drones. It would be funny to see a drone armed with a water cannon.
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2012-09-26 at 12:17.
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Old 2012-09-26, 13:18   Link #414
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
He works for the government the local press holdings.

Singapore is a fantastic place to work....if you have money. Most of the cash in SEA passes through here to the rest of the world and vice versa because we hired OCD patients to run our graft police, having a coffee session with them is not recommended.

As for the Chinese drones, I wonder if they would actually deploy armed drones. It would be funny to see a drone armed with a water cannon.
Ha.. I think I'd enjoy working in Singapore. I might have to look into it more.

Interesting tidbid, they have invented a variety of recoilless weapons that can be armed on various UAVs, including helicopter/rotocopter based designs. So maybe no watergun.. but a shotgun?

http://www.gizmag.com/go/6590/

Also, a couple years back, I was speaking to an engineer friend of mine about the feasibility of deploying a swarm of inexpensive C4 armed "smart" drones being "carpet bombed" over cities in the dark of night that the independently go and seek out targets or weak points in a structure.. It was a neat thought experiment! Oh the beauty of militarizing consumer tech!

http://ardrone.parrot.com/parrot-ar-drone/select-site
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Old 2012-09-26, 13:52   Link #415
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
As for the Chinese drones, I wonder if they would actually deploy armed drones. It would be funny to see a drone armed with a water cannon.
If you would use airplane in such ''game'' a waterbomber like such used agains forest fire would be more usefull
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Old 2012-09-26, 13:59   Link #416
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Ha.. I think I'd enjoy working in Singapore. I might have to look into it more.
If you are interested you can ask TRL. He might know a few positions requiring your expertise.

Quote:
Interesting tidbid, they have invented a variety of recoilless weapons that can be armed on various UAVs, including helicopter/rotocopter based designs. So maybe no watergun.. but a shotgun?

http://www.gizmag.com/go/6590/
Don't underestimate the power of shotguns. They are practically firepower + knockback weapons, with a variety of ammunition including incendiary, flechette, buckshot spray, SABOT and even miniature grenades.

Quote:
Also, a couple years back, I was speaking to an engineer friend of mine about the feasibility of deploying a swarm of inexpensive C4 armed "smart" drones being "carpet bombed" over cities in the dark of night that the independently go and seek out targets or weak points in a structure.. It was a neat thought experiment! Oh the beauty of militarizing consumer tech!

http://ardrone.parrot.com/parrot-ar-drone/select-site
The Israelis already built it - with a precision function too.
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Old 2012-09-26, 20:00   Link #417
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Speaking of drones, there's an article that is 6 days old:

http://www.militaryringinfo.com/serv...ll-use-drones/

So far, there's nothing. However, Japan could become a major client for the US in buying Predators.

In the midst of all of this, I'm surprised no one in the Diet brought a proposal of a bill implementing a new system for mandatory federal service of all people aged 19-22 (after high school, either in the military or in the civilian sector). If there's a consensus that the younger generation is a little lazy, I don't see why politicians from both major parties would not try having a discussion about such project. It could be similar to the Swiss Civilian Service and young people could be more easily in touch with career opportunities in such program.
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Old 2012-09-26, 20:33   Link #418
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I'm sure that if that happens (At least the military part), it could stir up some trouble with some of the anti-war groups in Japan. Not to mention most of Southeast Asia.

I'm sure the communists/socialists would oppose that part, but I'm not sure with the other parts. DPJ/LDP are kinda in between, although they want to make some changes to Article 9... Komeito wouldn't mind.
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Old 2012-09-26, 20:36   Link #419
Ithekro
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Japan's Constitution pretty much prevents such things as it could easily be considered a force for offensive actions (War), rather thatn the current Self Defense Forces (Defense). As it is, some consider the JSDF as being borderline to cross the line when it comes to their Constitution (Japan renounces its right to wage war).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article...e_Constitution

Quote:
The full text of the article in Japanese:
“第九条 日本国民は、正義と秩序を基調とする国際平和を誠実に希求し、国権の発動たる戦争と、武力による 威嚇又は武力の行使は、国際紛争を解決する手段としては、永久にこれを放棄する。 二 前項の目的を達するため、陸海空軍その他の戦力は、これを保持しない。国の交戦権は、これ を認めない。

The official English translation of the article reads:
ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes. (2) To accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.

As for the land issues:
http://www.taiwandocuments.org/sanfrancisco01.htm

Quote:
Article 2
(a) Japan recognizing the independence of Korea, renounces all right, title and claim to Korea, including the islands of Quelpart, Port Hamilton and Dagelet.

(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores.

(c) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to the Kurile Islands, and to that portion of Sakhalin and the islands adjacent to it over which Japan acquired sovereignty as a consequence of the Treaty of Portsmouth of 5 September 1905.

(d) Japan renounces all right, title and claim in connection with the League of Nations Mandate System, and accepts the action of the United Nations Security Council of 2 April 1947, extending the trusteeship system to the Pacific Islands formerly under mandate to Japan.

(e) Japan renounces all claim to any right or title to or interest in connection with any part of the Antarctic area, whether deriving from the activities of Japanese nationals or otherwise.

(f) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to the Spratly Islands and to the Paracel Islands.

Article 3
Japan will concur in any proposal of the United States to the United Nations to place under its trusteeship system, with the United States as the sole administering authority, Nansei Shoto south of 29deg. north latitude (including the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands), Nanpo Shoto south of Sofu Gan (including the Bonin Islands, Rosario Island and the Volcano Islands) and Parece Vela and Marcus Island. Pending the making of such a proposal and affirmative action thereon, the United States will have the right to exercise all and any powers of administration, legislation and jurisdiction over the territory and inhabitants of these islands, including their territorial waters.

also:

Article 10
Japan renounces all special rights and interests in China, including all benefits and privileges resulting from the provisions of the final Protocol signed at Peking on 7 September 1901, and all annexes, notes and documents supplementary thereto, and agrees to the abrogation in respect to Japan of the said protocol, annexes, notes and documents.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2012-09-26 at 21:04.
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Old 2012-09-26, 20:59   Link #420
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Japan's Constitution pretty much prevents such things as it could easily be considered a force for offensive actions (War), rather thatn the current Self Defense Forces (Defense). As it is, some consider the JSDF as being borderline to cross the line when it comes to their Constitution and the terms of the various World War II ending treaties (Japan renounces its right to wage war).
I'm sure the Swiss have something very similar in their constitution about not having an offensive force for war, BUT they still found a way to have that particular civilian service system in which a number of Swiss take military service in what is self-defense only. Also, there are also 134,886 Swiss soldiers as active personnel and 77,000 soldiers in the reserve force; not bad for a small country that has around 8 million people and no aspirations of being an offensive force. I don't see how and why Japan can't do the same.
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