AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-11-02, 12:45   Link #621
kyp275
ZA ZOMBIE!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Second stealth jet puts China on path to top regional power: expert

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8A107O20121102
LOL, first a F22 ripoff, now a F35 ripoff

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Some have said earlier that the CCP won't fall while the economy is good, and I'd tend to agree with that. However, I think the CCP's autocratic nature will in the long run lead to the economy's downfall and ultimate stagnation, leaving ripe conditions for revolution.
Indeed.
kyp275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-02, 13:12   Link #622
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Indeed.
When people talk about autocracy being more effective, I think they're incorrect. I think autocracy at best only works in the first/second generation, and only while that generation still has a grip on reality. Ultimately autocracy leads to madness. They end out so separated from reality, that as they spend most of the time defending themselves against internal "enemies", but these powerplays among ruling cliques is more like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. Ultimately, they're all doomed.


In China the cycle is particularly obvious, most Dynasties start out dynamic, innovative and competent; but ultimately end out rotten to the core. The CCP is just another dynasty in the cycle.

The liberal western system is best, because it allows old corrupt hierarchies to die, and be replaced by new dynamic ones, in a peaceful manner.
DonQuigleone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-02, 16:47   Link #623
maplehurry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Now I wonder how many years until we get unstuck with the 2 party system...
maplehurry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-02, 17:49   Link #624
KiraYamatoFan
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Second stealth jet puts China on path to top regional power: expert

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8A107O20121102
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
LOL, first a F22 ripoff, now a F35 ripoff
I was thinking the same thing. And so far, the F22 rip-off didn't work so good for them. Geez, can they ever come up with something original?

However, I wonder how this news will affect Mitsubishi's ATD-X project considering the original timeline said the project would be launched in 2016 and enter in production in 2027. Some people speak of this one to be the current leading project to be the first class of 6th generation fighter jets, but I guess that won't be enough to calm down the people reading the recent news article above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The liberal western system is best, because it allows old corrupt hierarchies to die, and be replaced by new dynamic ones, in a peaceful manner.
I hope this could work too. I would challenge anyone to tell me how and why it might not work when the concepts of provincial and federal governments would still exist. The Germans and the Japanese managed to hold some form of sustained success with a more liberal system after decades (if not centuries) under a government working as an autocracy.
KiraYamatoFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-02, 18:52   Link #625
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The liberal western system is best, because it allows old corrupt hierarchies to die, and be replaced by new dynamic ones, in a peaceful manner.
Interestingly enough, China has also lasted longer than any Western liberal state. Not saying that autocracy is good though. I think that some autocratic elements are necessary and even desirable and that they can be compatible with human rights or innovation.

Quote:
A country is just as much an abstract concept as a party. As I see it, the CCP does equate loyalty to the country with loyalty to the party, and that's how the education is conducted. Of course, loyalty to the country but not the party would be problematic...
Well it's kind of like arguing that "up" and "down" are just as abstract as each other, or, to draw from my signature, that "war" and "peace" are equivalent. The CCP's equation of itself with the country is similarly Orwellian in nature and ought to be opposed/recognized for what it is instead of accepted or even appeased, especially if one is going to complain about China's conduct abroad.
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-02, 20:33   Link #626
kyp275
ZA ZOMBIE!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Interestingly enough, China has also lasted longer than any Western liberal state. Not saying that autocracy is good though. I think that some autocratic elements are necessary and even desirable and that they can be compatible with human rights or innovation.
Huh? I hope you're not counting all the different dynasties as one continuous "Chinese state".

The PRC hasn't even lasted one century yet, there are quite a few western democratic nations that have been around for far longer.
kyp275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-02, 20:52   Link #627
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Interestingly enough, China has also lasted longer than any Western liberal state. Not saying that autocracy is good though. I think that some autocratic elements are necessary and even desirable and that they can be compatible with human rights or innovation.
See kyp275's post. You can argue that "Egypt" or "Greece" as an entity have lasted just as long. However, they have gone through hundreds of different governments. China will continue to exist long into the future. The question is whether the CCP will continue to exist.
Quote:
Well it's kind of like arguing that "up" and "down" are just as abstract as each other, or, to draw from my signature, that "war" and "peace" are equivalent. The CCP's equation of itself with the country is similarly Orwellian in nature and ought to be opposed/recognized for what it is instead of accepted or even appeased, especially if one is going to complain about China's conduct abroad.
I'd advise reading this excellent article written by Orwell himself. It's perfectly possible to have the same attitude to an idea, as you do to a nation. Unfortunately this fanatical loyalty has no word in the English language, and it's closest to nationalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Huh? I hope you're not counting all the different dynasties as one continuous "Chinese state".

The PRC hasn't even lasted one century yet, there are quite a few western democratic nations that have been around for far longer.
Indeed. The closest equivalent to look at the Soviet Union, which lasted ~70 years. The PRC today has lasted to 70 years. That said, I would count "Modern China" as starting with Deng Xiaoping, making it about 30 years, with Mao being more of an intermediary period.

The regime is still young. That said, the PRC has already dodged one of the bullets that felled the USSR, in that it has succesfully passed power down to a new generation of leaders (the USSR, by contrast became a decaying gerontocracy). I still think the CCP will fall most likely in my own lifetime, though I may be 80 before that happens.

As I see it, any autocratic order at best only has 50 or so good years of governance in it (at best) before it "goes south". In olden days such regimes could still linger for quite a while in this state, largely due to the constraints on the flow of information. Today, however, information flows fast, and once an autocratic regime weakens, it's doomed to fall apart. Trying to repress popular discontent is like trying to completely block a river. The water is only going to build up until it spills over the top. The only forward is to let the water through in a controlled way, but it's a lot easier to control water then it is to control information...
DonQuigleone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 04:55   Link #628
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Huh? I hope you're not counting all the different dynasties as one continuous "Chinese state".

The PRC hasn't even lasted one century yet, there are quite a few western democratic nations that have been around for far longer.
The concept of China as a continuous culture/civilization has gone on longer than any Western equivalent. Greece cannot be said to be anything at all like what it was 2500 years ago, Egypt is now a nation whose culture and people are absolutely different from what it was in ancient times.

China has always managed to more of less reunify itself. It has done so like ten times. The only comparison in Europe is Rome, which was a one-time thing. China has had many polities come and go, but its heritage remains continuous. The reverence Chinese have held for Confucian thought is unparalleled compared to anything, even Christianity, I would argue, in the West. The Daoist philosophy has been passed down for a few thousand years and, in conjunction with Confucianism, deeply shapes the "Chinese character". I don't think anything similar exists for Greece, Rome, or Egypt. Perhaps India, Japan, and Persia might quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
See kyp275's post. You can argue that "Egypt" or "Greece" as an entity have lasted just as long. However, they have gone through hundreds of different governments. China will continue to exist long into the future. The question is whether the CCP will continue to exist.
See above.

Spoiler for ACHTUNG! Textwall! Skip if Sleepy!:


One thing I have seen in successful democratic countries is that they all held on to their history and culture, perhaps as a result of stable geopolitical circumstance, but nonetheless retained a good sense of their national character. That, in addition to the fact that they are liberal states tolerant of various opinions, is IMO why they work well. I think that China does not have that "cultural stability", something that can really give weight to the word "patriotism". All it has right now is a party, one that is isolated from the feelings of the people and whose days are probably numbered. If China is to become stable and prosperous in the long term, it has to rediscover itself, and the surest way to do that is to reconnect with the past.

Quote:
Indeed. The closest equivalent to look at the Soviet Union, which lasted ~70 years. The PRC today has lasted to 70 years. That said, I would count "Modern China" as starting with Deng Xiaoping, making it about 30 years, with Mao being more of an intermediary period.

The regime is still young. That said, the PRC has already dodged one of the bullets that felled the USSR, in that it has succesfully passed power down to a new generation of leaders (the USSR, by contrast became a decaying gerontocracy). I still think the CCP will fall most likely in my own lifetime, though I may be 80 before that happens.

As I see it, any autocratic order at best only has 50 or so good years of governance in it (at best) before it "goes south". In olden days such regimes could still linger for quite a while in this state, largely due to the constraints on the flow of information. Today, however, information flows fast, and once an autocratic regime weakens, it's doomed to fall apart. Trying to repress popular discontent is like trying to completely block a river. The water is only going to build up until it spills over the top. The only forward is to let the water through in a controlled way, but it's a lot easier to control water then it is to control information...
See above. Basically, while liberalism politically is a good thing, I think that more important is a kind of cultural solidarity that makes the people generally feel like they belong to and a have a lot in the community, and thereby an obligation to make it work. that is one thing that China sorely lacks.
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 07:43   Link #629
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
The concept of China as a continuous culture/civilization has gone on longer than any Western equivalent. Greece cannot be said to be anything at all like what it was 2500 years ago, Egypt is now a nation whose culture and people are absolutely different from what it was in ancient times.
Greeks and Egyptians might disagree with you there. While the Egyptians (except the Copts) went through a considerable shift with the Arab conquest, the Greeks have not changed so much. Their language is directly descended (it's as similar to Classical Greek as Mandarin is to Classical Chinese...), and while religion wise they worship Jesus, the Chinese didn't venerate Buddha 3000 years ago either.
Quote:
China has always managed to more of less reunify itself. It has done so like ten times. The only comparison in Europe is Rome, which was a one-time thing. China has had many polities come and go, but its heritage remains continuous. The reverence Chinese have held for Confucian thought is unparalleled compared to anything, even Christianity, I would argue, in the West. The Daoist philosophy has been passed down for a few thousand years and, in conjunction with Confucianism, deeply shapes the "Chinese character". I don't think anything similar exists for Greece, Rome, or Egypt. Perhaps India, Japan, and Persia might quality.
Christianity has been pretty pervasive. Also, Western Philosophy.

Persia is a country that's probably lasted longer then China. You can draw a direct line between ancient Persia and modern Iran.

Quote:
One thing I have seen in successful democratic countries is that they all held on to their history and culture, perhaps as a result of stable geopolitical circumstance, but nonetheless retained a good sense of their national character. That, in addition to the fact that they are liberal states tolerant of various opinions, is IMO why they work well. I think that China does not have that "cultural stability", something that can really give weight to the word "patriotism". All it has right now is a party, one that is isolated from the feelings of the people and whose days are probably numbered. If China is to become stable and prosperous in the long term, it has to rediscover itself, and the surest way to do that is to reconnect with the past.
Not sure. "Reconnecting with the past" can easily just lead to Reactionaries and stagnation. Look at Spain under Franco. I would argue that modern China is looking to the past, and doing so in order to reinforce it's centralized autocratic rule. As much respect I have for Chinese culture, China won't move forward by looking back. Ultimately it has to shed traditional hierarchies just as Europe did during it's era of revolution. As it is now, I think the CCP bureaucrats are just this century's mandarins.

Quote:
See above. Basically, while liberalism politically is a good thing, I think that more important is a kind of cultural solidarity that makes the people generally feel like they belong to and a have a lot in the community, and thereby an obligation to make it work. that is one thing that China sorely lacks.
I'm not sure, I think western liberal governance works as a form of "organized" chaos. The system depends on no group ever attaining complete dominance or control. When one group becomes too powerful, things get tricky(arguably it becomes some kind of autocracy).
DonQuigleone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 07:56   Link #630
kyp275
ZA ZOMBIE!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
The concept of China as a continuous culture/civilization has gone on longer than any Western equivalent. Greece cannot be said to be anything at all like what it was 2500 years ago, Egypt is now a nation whose culture and people are absolutely different from what it was in ancient times.
Oh god you actually are.

Are you actually seriously standing there telling us that the China of today is anything at all like it was 2500 years ago? You're looking through some seriously tinted glasses there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
China has always managed to more of less reunify itself. It has done so like ten times. The only comparison in Europe is Rome, which was a one-time thing. China has had many polities come and go, but its heritage remains continuous. The reverence Chinese have held for Confucian thought is unparalleled compared to anything, even Christianity, I would argue, in the West. The Daoist philosophy has been passed down for a few thousand years and, in conjunction with Confucianism, deeply shapes the "Chinese character". I don't think anything similar exists for Greece, Rome, or Egypt. Perhaps India, Japan, and Persia might quality.
You're talking about culture, NOT a nation-state. The PRC has nothing to do with the Qinq, or Song, or Han, or Tong dynasties as far as being a governing entity goes. Note where you said:

"Interestingly enough, China has also lasted longer than any Western liberal state."


There's a huge difference between cultures and actual entities of governance, and they're NOT interchangeable.

Also, it's not "reunification", it's usually rebellion mixed in with the occasional invasion, or are you saying that the Mongol Empire was secretly Chinese?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
see for instance Nazi Germany or Communist Russia. Those titles aren't there for no reason, they're there to distinguish the country from the ruling form, i.e the party and its ideology.
No, they're there to distinguish a specific nation during a specific time period. When one use the term Nazi Germany, they're not just talking about the Nazi party, otherwise they would, you know, just say the Nazy party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
IMO, if Mao decided to pass his "crown" to an heir of similar ruthlessness, and assuming this heir actually was able to secure his power and not do anything too crazy like nuke someone, it would be theoretically possible to keep the system going on for generations.
North Korea disagrees with you

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
If the Chinese had a better connection to their past, perhaps there would be more stability, and the waning of the CCP wouldn't be such a dangerous thing. Perhaps China would've become democratic by now, and if not democratic, perhaps something like Singapore that is draconian by Western standards but still worthy of the "free country" title.
You're placing entirely way too much emphasis on the effect of cultural history on government stability. While a shared cultural identity means a country is less likely to split apart into different nation-states after a civil war or rebellion etc, it has little effect on the day-to-day operation of a government.
kyp275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 08:59   Link #631
Sumeragi
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
The concept of China as a continuous culture/civilization has gone on longer than any Western equivalent. Greece cannot be said to be anything at all like what it was 2500 years ago, Egypt is now a nation whose culture and people are absolutely different from what it was in ancient times.
By that definition, the concept of Korea goes even further back.....
Sumeragi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 09:30   Link #632
Ridwan
Got A Bad Desire
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
Why do we care about Chinese longevity again ?
__________________
Ridwan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 10:56   Link #633
SaintessHeart
Ehh? EEEEHHHHHH?
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Why do we care about Chinese longevity again ?
That is because their lolis rank No.4 after Japanese, Russian and Korean ones in terms of overall cuteness.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 11:27   Link #634
RRW
Unspecified
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Unspecified
So i am kinda lost here. what are we talking now?
__________________
RRW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 12:55   Link #635
kaito-kid
As I make you stop, think
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Europe - The Netherlands
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
I was thinking the same thing. And so far, the F22 rip-off didn't work so good for them. Geez, can they ever come up with something original?

However, I wonder how this news will affect Mitsubishi's ATD-X project considering the original timeline said the project would be launched in 2016 and enter in production in 2027. Some people speak of this one to be the current leading project to be the first class of 6th generation fighter jets, but I guess that won't be enough to calm down the people reading the recent news article above.
6th gen?
Why are even at the 5th generation right now? I mean why do we need them? For all those dogfights we get into with the Taliban? (as Bill Maher ones asked)
__________________
kaito-kid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 13:01   Link #636
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
Question:
The talk was about Chinese culture being destroyed under Mao and the currect PRC failing in culture department. What about the ROC? Where did they stand on Chinese culture? Could they reintroduce it if they managed to somehow take over when the PRC government fails?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
6th gen?
Why are even at the 5th generation right now? I mean why do we need them? For all those dogfights we get into with the Taliban? (as Bill Maher ones asked)
Newer fighters are to keep the balance of power with the other countries that are not actually our friends, but we are not at war with. The balance keeps us from being at war with them along with the threat of our (and their) nuclear weapons.

These being the United States, Russia, and China. The Superpower, the Former Superpower, and the potental raising Superpower.

Plus Russia could always come back around again. We hope they don't and that China will not become a full time enemy like they use to be..but with the military, it is always about keeping ahead of a potental enemy. Even if the enemy you are currently fighting has nothing that can stand against your technology. They aren't the ones the weapons are being built to counter.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 13:44   Link #637
Tom Bombadil
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Question:
The talk was about Chinese culture being destroyed under Mao and the currect PRC failing in culture department. What about the ROC? Where did they stand on Chinese culture? Could they reintroduce it if they managed to somehow take over when the PRC government fails?
Well, well, well, what do we have here? A false statement and questions that tries to mislead. Culture is too much broad a concept. It consists food habits, common practices, social norms, traditional musics, clothing, historical heritages, etc., etc.. What has really changed because of Mao's crazy years? What has changed because of modernization and globalization? What are those that have not changed? If you are really interested in such topics, some reading is probably necessary. If not, here is a riddle for you. Both Korea and Vietnam switched their writing system of over a millennium in Chinese characters to something newly adopted. Do you think that destroyed their culture?
Tom Bombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 13:59   Link #638
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Well, well, well, what do we have here? A false statement and questions that tries to mislead. Culture is too much broad a concept. It consists food habits, common practices, social norms, traditional musics, clothing, historical heritages, etc., etc.. What has really changed because of Mao's crazy years? What has changed because of modernization and globalization? What are those that have not changed? If you are really interested in such topics, some reading is probably necessary. If not, here is a riddle for you. Both Korea and Vietnam switched their writing system of over a millennium in Chinese characters to something newly adopted. Do you think that destroyed their culture?
Yet that avoids the question. What about the ROC in relation to what LeoXiao was going on about?
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 14:19   Link #639
Tom Bombadil
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Yet that avoids the question. What about the ROC in relation to what LeoXiao was going on about?
Your assumptions was wrong, therefore questions based on that very assumption is invalid.

You didn't answer my "riddle".
I didn't bother to read LeoXiao and the others' political discussions. Experience shows those are generally pointless and go nowhere.
Tom Bombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-03, 14:46   Link #640
ganbaru
books-eater youkai
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
6th gen?
Why are even at the 5th generation right now? I mean why do we need them? For all those dogfights we get into with the Taliban? (as Bill Maher ones asked)
Unless than I am wrongv, the only plane operational than is considered a 5th gen if the F-22, and the new one should fall into the same generaton as well.

6th generation fighter jet won't have a pilote on board, if they have a pilote at all.
__________________

ganbaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
border, china, dispute, japan

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.