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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 13
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 69 46.31%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 48 32.21%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 20 13.42%
7 out of 10 : Good... 7 4.70%
6 out of 10 : Average... 1 0.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 2 1.34%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 1 0.67%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 1 0.67%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-10-01, 11:59   Link #201
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
What you say makes a lot of sense. I was just thinking in the sense did Kayaba actually design the game and boss content as a death game, or did someone else design it as a normal high level content boss where players can keep trying?

If it was the latter and Kayaba just flipped the death switch on without modifying the content to be suitable for the new penalty, then it is going to be most unfair. I say this because content designers have to come up with new and innovative ways to keep high lvl players interested and probably didn't have the real death scenario in mind (I hope)
Yes, I think the story has already insinuated that the game itself was built to be a normal game (which is why they had someone like Yui in the plans), but then the switch was flipped. I imagine that Cardinal doesn't really consider the "true impact" of human deaths in its game balance calculations, because it was never programmed that way.

In truth, I think this is actually what Kirito was referring to way back in the day too (back in Episode 5) -- that the world of SAO consists of game systems that (except for the flipped switch!) are fundamentally balanced and logical (which led to his logical conclusion that the in-town PKs they were investigating at the time couldn't be based on an ability or skill that allows in-town killing, because that would break game balance). It was because the game systems were basically predictable and allowed planning/analysis that he could afford to go solo for so long. Now that the game is removing the last-available safety nets, the rules of engagement have changed.
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Old 2012-10-01, 12:02   Link #202
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Considering Kayaba's wish of "creating a world", it's likely he was very involved in the basic design. It's possible he had a hand in the most notable bosses (of which level 75's would be), but he certainly didn't do everything.
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Old 2012-10-01, 12:49   Link #203
vansonbee
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sexy episode! So trolled with the first segment, but the action is nice. There was so much tension, thanks to the other player's and I love it how the leader tried to protect some of the players, but still couldn't do it.

Were everyone in the group around the same level? I guess skills > level portion, I guess.

Also notice the black guy with an axe, instead of a sword XD
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Old 2012-10-01, 12:59   Link #204
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Also notice the black guy with an axe, instead of a sword XD
What's wrong with that?
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Old 2012-10-01, 17:23   Link #205
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I was sort of hoping that the whole episode would be all fishing then come next episode would be the fight. I disliked the idea of having 2 "bosses" in 1 episode.
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Old 2012-10-01, 20:59   Link #206
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Originally Posted by vansonbee View Post
Also notice the black guy with an axe, instead of a sword XD
A black guy with an Axe like Agil is awesome.. It fits his character...
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Old 2012-10-01, 23:11   Link #207
vansonbee
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What's wrong with that?
What did I mean by that?

Game is called "Sword Art Online"

I just find it funny.
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Old 2012-10-02, 01:55   Link #208
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i really liked the 2 OST's that played during the fishing incident. want them!!
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Old 2012-10-02, 03:09   Link #209
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by vansonbee View Post
What did I mean by that?

Game is called "Sword Art Online"

I just find it funny.
We have already seen other players use other weapons than swords before. Like for example some of the PKers attacking Kirito in Silica's story or the Army guys in episode 9 using spears.
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Old 2012-10-02, 04:49   Link #210
grey_moon
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I've been thinking about everyone's thoughts about the lvl 74+ bosses and comparing it to my own experiences playing MMOs.

One thing that struck me is that when I play the RL games, I find people in general consider content to be newbie/midbie level until it becomes like level 74. If the monster attack patterns are the same and there are plenty of safety nets then I think generally it is considered "training" content.

How about others are your experiences the same too?

I think Guild Wars 1 is a great example as you can hit level cap in a weekend, but being able to do like Underworld properly you need to get a good team together who knows what they are doing.

To deal with the bosses and sub bosses you needed to know tricks to beat them. Sometimes if you didn't bring the right skill with you then that is at least 3 hours wasted and you needed to start again. Of course with SAO you can't just start again, but it does show that the trickiness of high end content is seen even in games as old and established as GW1.
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Old 2012-10-02, 05:01   Link #211
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To be more general a lot of games have the same pattern of consistent difficulty followed by a sudden and very difficult level. What makes it even worse is you still have to adjust yourself to the new challenges, and we all know the first time you do something is usually the most difficult.

SAO players don't really have that luxury when the boss room is a no teleport zone and the doors close behind them.
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Old 2012-10-02, 05:25   Link #212
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Raviel View Post
To be more general a lot of games have the same pattern of consistent difficulty followed by a sudden and very difficult level. What makes it even worse is you still have to adjust yourself to the new challenges, and we all know the first time you do something is usually the most difficult.

SAO players don't really have that luxury when the boss room is a no teleport zone and the doors close behind them.
But high end content I find is to make it interesting for players who have been playing for quite a while and is designed to be tricky and challenging. If we take SAO for example they have been playing for 2 years to get to lvl 74, so to keep the players from finding their jollies else where the content needs to not be the same old 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4 etc etc.

This is where it is important at least for me to keep in mind the possible original design of SAO, compared to the hijacked version of SAO.
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Old 2012-10-02, 17:58   Link #213
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SAO players don't really have that luxury when the boss room is a no teleport zone and the doors close behind them.
Even worse when a no-crystal zone means no big crystal heals either, you've got to rely on the show-acting HoT potions (assuming those even work).

Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
But high end content I find is to make it interesting for players who have been playing for quite a while and is designed to be tricky and challenging. If we take SAO for example they have been playing for 2 years to get to lvl 74, so to keep the players from finding their jollies else where the content needs to not be the same old 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4 etc etc.
I think this is one of the big differences between the old-school MMO bosses, compared to the WoW and post-WoW boss fights... Back in the old days you had significantly harder bosses that had vastly less room for error, but the basic fight dynamic was more or less the same (added difficulty only normally), these days it tends to require dance moves, dodging out of the fire, not being in a certain position, etc.

SAO being an old-school MMO (written a decade ago, recall) doesn't necessarily mix things up, so much as require everyone to really be on their toes... although having a stealth boss hiding on the ceiling is certainly a new one.
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Old 2012-10-02, 18:46   Link #214
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Originally Posted by vansonbee View Post
What did I mean by that?

Game is called "Sword Art Online"

I just find it funny.
"Weapon Art Online" just doesn't have the same ring to it. But they use other weapons apart from swords.
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Old 2012-10-02, 19:05   Link #215
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The Skull Reaper boss power is becoming new standard for 75+ bosses, come to think of it, I think Gleam Eyes difficulty is only quarter (or less) from Skull Reaper, Gleam Eyes can be defeated with only well you could say non army raid, and mainly only Kirito, Asuna, and Klein, but Skull Reaper is attacked using a full raid party yet it's still difficult. This also an already problem that cause Kirito to not become a solo player, much higher the level the more the game become unpredictable.
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Old 2012-10-02, 22:56   Link #216
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
Even worse when a no-crystal zone means no big crystal heals either, you've got to rely on the show-acting HoT potions (assuming those even work).



I think this is one of the big differences between the old-school MMO bosses, compared to the WoW and post-WoW boss fights... Back in the old days you had significantly harder bosses that had vastly less room for error, but the basic fight dynamic was more or less the same (added difficulty only normally), these days it tends to require dance moves, dodging out of the fire, not being in a certain position, etc.

SAO being an old-school MMO (written a decade ago, recall) doesn't necessarily mix things up, so much as require everyone to really be on their toes... although having a stealth boss hiding on the ceiling is certainly a new one.
By old-school raid bosses, do you mean like EQ?
Yeah, there was hardly any mechanics to those fights at all. They didn't really involve thought, just a repeated playing of your role.
Rezzers lined up to rez the fallen, and basically zombied the boss with mass numbers.

WoW started introducing complicated mechanics of the fight, where you had to do a lot more than stand there and hit skill.
Involving tactics and coordinated actions that involved the entire environment.

I see that as an improvement, really.
This is coming from someone who's been playing the MMO field since the original Ultima Online days.
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Old 2012-10-03, 01:25   Link #217
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Adigard View Post
...

I think this is one of the big differences between the old-school MMO bosses, compared to the WoW and post-WoW boss fights... Back in the old days you had significantly harder bosses that had vastly less room for error, but the basic fight dynamic was more or less the same (added difficulty only normally), these days it tends to require dance moves, dodging out of the fire, not being in a certain position, etc.

SAO being an old-school MMO (written a decade ago, recall) doesn't necessarily mix things up, so much as require everyone to really be on their toes... although having a stealth boss hiding on the ceiling is certainly a new one.
Yah I think that too, especially when the lvl cap of players get raised so players can out lvl an area rather then improving their own skills.

Forsaken World is a terrible example of this. I used to always take on an area as soon as I could enter it, but I found more and more players would wait till they were so OP that they could snooze though it. Which I found to be horribly boring.

I think GW1 released in 2005 was the first MMO I played which desperately tried to get away from just increasing the stats of a boss, but make it so there were patterns or tricks to beating an area. You couldn't out level a boss, since level cap was so low and stayed the same from when the game came out till now. It was the most tactical MMO I've played to date.

SAO until lvl 74 sounded like the old school, grind up lvls type of game (apart from the boss that killed off the Black Cats).

From lvl 74 onwards even the normal monsters don't have standard patterns, so I think pre lvl 74 was newbie land, now they are about to face the real thing.

Lvl 75 boss room is brutal IMHO because of the death factor, without that I think it would be refreshing after playing a MMO for 2 years and reaching a high level.

It is boring having lvls and gears which means nothing can touch u, it is also pretty boring if the game mechanism does everything for you. What I mean by that is get to lvl xxx and press 1,2,3,4 and everything dies.

Rather the situation in room 74+ where you have to time your blocks right, where your uber gears and lvl means nothing. Now that I think is real high end content! (Without really dying ofc )
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Old 2012-10-03, 02:34   Link #218
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^I was a guild officer leading our team in GvG, ranked in the top 100-150 in GW1.

That being said, GW did have tactical focus, but it also had strong element of Magic the Gathering like "deck building" as major part of its strategy. Building the team "build" accounted for about half of the winning factor.

However, Guild Wars was not an MMORPG.
It was a MORPG with sports like PvP competition focus, more akin to other MO such as Diablo.
It can't be compared at all with MMORPG raiding, which is defined as massive amount of players in a persistent world.

The RP element of Guild Wars was much simpler, and other than the end-game challenge DOA, very casual and easy. Hell you could solo the whole thing. It was not at all focused on doing "particular mechanics to fight a raid boss". It's fundamentally a different type of game, and cannot be compared to SOA.
GW's hardline tactical element only played significance in PvP.

WoW on the other hand, is a standard raiding MMO, and much more in-line to directly compare with SOA.
The whole concept of raiding is identical amongst these post-EQ, EQ clone MMOs.
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Old 2012-10-03, 02:42   Link #219
grey_moon
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^I was a guild officer leading our team in GvG, ranked in the top 100-150 in GW1.

That being said, GW did have tactical focus, but it also had strong element of Magic the Gathering like "deck building" as major part of its strategy. Building the team "build" accounted for about half of the winning factor.

However, Guild Wars was not an MMORPG. It was a MORPG with sports like PvP competition focus.
It can't be compared at all with MMORPG raiding, which is defined as massive amount of players in a persistent world.
The RP element of Guild Wars was much simpler, and other than the end-game challenge DOA, very casual and easy. Hell you could solo the whole thing. It was not at all focused on doing "particular mechanics to fight a raid boss". It's fundamentally a different type of game, and cannot be compared to SOA.
GW's hardline tactical element only played significance in PvP.

WoW on the other hand, is a standard raiding MMO, and much more inline to compare with SOA.
The whole concept of raiding is identical amongst these post-EQ MMOs.
GW had instances but players still could interact with a large group of players, so whilst not an MMO in the "WoW" sense, still has an element of collaboration and dealing with people rather then just an AI.

WoW is the meme for MMOs now, so I think games are in general compared to WoW which I think is a shame at times.

GW1 had reasons for doing what it did and mostly I think that was to break the WoW clone cycle, which can only be a good thing, same goes for GW2 which is a bit more action based but also tries to steer as far away from WoW as possible.

Also I think WoW is not a good comparison to SAO which I guess would be built around Japanese idealism of what is a good MMO. I've only played SMTI as an Japanese MMO which I see elements of SAO in it, but the rest are American and of course Korean xD

*EDIT*
Also what is the largest number of players we have seen in a boss room so far? The scout party was 10, how much was in the current group did anyone count? So far I would say the numbers feel more like an instance then a huge raid.
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Old 2012-10-03, 02:49   Link #220
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Dude, that's like calling PSO an MMO.

Guild Wars and PSO are direct descendent of Diablo. They are MORPGs.
The MMO-like element only comes into play in the outlets (towns, etc) and even then it's fragmented into servers individually.

Due to not understanding the difference between MMO and MO, many game sites and magazines will lump them all into MMO, but trust me, they are NOT. The most prominent driving factor in determining the difference is whether or not the concept of persistent world being the largest element of the game or not.

And no, don't lump me with "Oh he just knows WoW" crowd, I've probably have been playing various MOs and MMOs since most of the people here have been alive.

As far as WoW goes, it's basically a EQ clone, like most of the MMO genre.
What WoW achieved in that category is building broad clientele by casual focus, focus on intuitive GUI, and introduction of element of instances, burrowed from their other successful MO franchise, Diablo.
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