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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 13
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 69 46.31%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 48 32.21%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 20 13.42%
7 out of 10 : Good... 7 4.70%
6 out of 10 : Average... 1 0.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 2 1.34%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 1 0.67%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 1 0.67%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-09-30, 10:02   Link #141
Wild Goose
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Y'know, watching this death game really reminds me of a saying that God createdcall men, but it wasSamuel Colt who made them equal.

A lot of the danger of these boss fights could have been reduced if the players were all carrying rifles. Not to say it would be a cakewalk (jesusnh christ banshee rush on platinum), but would have made things easier.

That said, yes, yes, this is sword art online, not Gun Technique Online.
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Old 2012-09-30, 10:06   Link #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Y'know, watching this death game really reminds me of a saying that God createdcall men, but it wasSamuel Colt who made them equal.

A lot of the danger of these boss fights could have been reduced if the players were all carrying rifles. Not to say it would be a cakewalk (jesusnh christ banshee rush on platinum), but would have made things easier.

That said, yes, yes, this is sword art online, not Gun Technique Online.
Why did I get that Starcraft 2 joke?

On another note, a good alternative would be using Item or Blade Throwing skill... you know... like the ones Kirito used to kill the Ragout Rabbit?
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Old 2012-09-30, 10:09   Link #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Y'know, watching this death game really reminds me of a saying that God createdcall men, but it wasSamuel Colt who made them equal.

A lot of the danger of these boss fights could have been reduced if the players were all carrying rifles. Not to say it would be a cakewalk (jesusnh christ banshee rush on platinum), but would have made things easier.

That said, yes, yes, this is sword art online, not Gun Technique Online.
Considering how many corpses of huntards I've seen in raids, I dunno about that.
(despite having the highest amount of skills to divert aggro from him/herself)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviel View Post
Skull Reaper reminds me of some bosses in an MMO I'm playing right now (Dragon Nest if anyone here knows about it), while the tank(s) do have aggro it doesn't really mean the DPS are free to keep on hitting because either the boss's attacks have huge AoE or they have some relatively lethal attacks to defend their sides and back.
My raid had one fury warrior who keeps getting killed by standing on the wrong side of the boss, no matter how many times I told him not to.
He became a local guild joke within the team... no matter how the raid is going, we can count on him to die from hits he should never have gotten.
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Old 2012-09-30, 10:19   Link #144
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Originally Posted by ~Yami~ View Post
I do remember that KoB's should be the one who defend the group... but why only Heathcliff there?? where's that 4 tall bodyguards??
I think you're forgetting that Asuna and Kirito are KoB's...
Three KoB's are tanking the boss...


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Originally Posted by KyriaL View Post
If that boss had extra scythes, chance are they would be goners.
Extra scythes? Come on... that thing has way too many pointy body parts already... it's literally a moving deadly weapon... it also has a 1hit tail swing...
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Old 2012-09-30, 10:28   Link #145
Raviel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Y'know, watching this death game really reminds me of a saying that God createdcall men, but it wasSamuel Colt who made them equal.

A lot of the danger of these boss fights could have been reduced if the players were all carrying rifles. Not to say it would be a cakewalk (jesusnh christ banshee rush on platinum), but would have made things easier.

That said, yes, yes, this is sword art online, not Gun Technique Online.
Off topic: SC2's metagame has evolved enough for people to make banshee rush jokes? Hell, banshee rushes are actually possible now? (been ages since I last played)

On topic: Skull Reaper is definitely one of those bosses where the level of difficulty suddenly shoots up to ridiculous levels.

Maybe it's a benchmark for how difficult the bosses are from floors 75 and above?
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Old 2012-09-30, 11:13   Link #146
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Well, which would be perfectly fine (certainly in the game design phase), if not for the new "condition" imposed post-launch. As it stands, you can't really call that "fair" -- the creator may have "intended for it to be beaten/cleared", but without the possibility of information getting out, it's basically rolling the dice to see if the next group that tries is smart and strong enough to win, and if not you've just lot a whole ton of your best players. One might hope that "Cardinal" would adjust the game balance at some point (as it was implied to be doing in the last episode) if it sees that it's just too unreasonable (because too much attrition now makes it harder to clear the rest of the game).
Agreed on bold. I've got to say though, I'm surprised we're way this deep into the series and this subject still comes up.

Reiterating what I previously said here, my personal opinion is that calling SAO as the death game that it is now as "fair" is an insult to those who died. It implies they are losers and thus deserved to die. Maybe if we lived in ancient Rome that idea wouldn't be so repulsive, but...I've said this before, the moment it becomes a death game, it doesn't matter even if SAO was originally the most balanced game ever made in history. That whole game balance "fairness" ultimately weighs to nothing if your life is on the other end of the scale.
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Old 2012-09-30, 11:14   Link #147
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
Why did I get that Starcraft 2 joke?

On another note, a good alternative would be using Item or Blade Throwing skill... you know... like the ones Kirito used to kill the Ragout Rabbit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviel View Post
Off topic: SC2's metagame has evolved enough for people to make banshee rush jokes? Hell, banshee rushes are actually possible now? (been ages since I last played)

On topic: Skull Reaper is definitely one of those bosses where the level of difficulty suddenly shoots up to ridiculous levels.

Maybe it's a benchmark for how difficult the bosses are from floors 75 and above?
...uh, actually I'm referring to these Banshees, while playing Platinum challenge Mass Effect 3 multiplayer
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Old 2012-09-30, 11:17   Link #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviel View Post
Off topic: SC2's metagame has evolved enough for people to make banshee rush jokes? Hell, banshee rushes are actually possible now? (been ages since I last played)

On topic: Skull Reaper is definitely one of those bosses where the level of difficulty suddenly shoots up to ridiculous levels.

Maybe it's a benchmark for how difficult the bosses are from floors 75 and above?
Like I (and many others said), any floor boss x 25 = bad bad thing.

Floor 25:
The Army had heavy losses and thus focused on the lower floors.
Floor 50:
Spoiler for Vol 1 -- cut out Crimson Killing Intent -- Heathcliff unmentioned detail:

Floor 75:
This
Floor 100:
???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
...uh, actually I'm referring to these Banshees, while playing Platinum challenge Mass Effect 3 multiplayer
Got the Wrong Genre Savvy tag... although the joke still works.
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Old 2012-09-30, 11:56   Link #149
Raviel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
...uh, actually I'm referring to these Banshees, while playing Platinum challenge Mass Effect 3 multiplayer
Got the wrong game, mixed up platinum difficulty and master/grand master league

On another note, if like others have said, that boss difficulty spikes every 25 floors then I have to wonder if it's actually possible to clear SAO with its current set of rules. On top of that there seem to be fewer and fewer front-liners with each new floor boss they fight.

Last edited by Raviel; 2012-09-30 at 12:08.
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Old 2012-09-30, 11:58   Link #150
Utsuro no Hako
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Agreed on bold. I've got to say though, I'm surprised we're way this deep into the series and this subject still comes up.

Reiterating what I previously said here, my personal opinion is that calling SAO as the death game that it is now as "fair" is an insult to those who died. It implies they are losers and thus deserved to die. Maybe if we lived in ancient Rome that idea wouldn't be so repulsive, but...I've said this before, the moment it becomes a death game, it doesn't matter even if SAO was originally the most balanced game ever made in history. That whole game balance "fairness" ultimately weighs to nothing if your life is on the other end of the scale.
Kirito's comment was limited to the game play, not the overall situation -- in other words, the parts controlled by Cardinal and not directly by Kayaba. Cardinal might be tough, but it's not going to stop them from completing the game by spawning infinite mobs outside the a boss chamber, or setting a trap that can only be escaped if one player kills another.
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Old 2012-09-30, 12:27   Link #151
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The illusion of a safe zone up to the 73rd floor where you could learn boss weakpoints, learn from mistakes and make preparations for that

Starting the 74th floor all boos room is anti crystal and starting the 75th is probably closed doors as well
At this point there is no way to prevent dying, and it's a gamble

You can no longer apply Sun Tzu's "know yourself and know the enemy" prime doctrine

At that point it's the really old days of firearms war, where people would line up like gentlemen take turns shooting each other until one side is wiped out.

now, if every boss battle after this is anti crystal and closed room, that means you will have substantial casualties with each floor. This is will be very bad to morale. How many do you think will make it to the top? I think the reason why SAO had a few thousand players at the start is because they need that number. Most are REQUIRED to die to make it the top.
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Old 2012-09-30, 12:43   Link #152
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The world of SAO stopped being fair when Kayaba prevented Yui from doing her job. Yui is part of the system that was created to keep the balance inside the game, to keep things fair. The only reason her functions weren't carried on by Cardinal is that they needed a more human-like program to so, but in a way, she was also part of Cardinal.

The moment Kayaba tampered with that, the game stopped being fair, and I think Kirito realized that then.

I think Kayaba never really wanted SAO to be fair anyway, because a game is fair. Kayaba didn't want a game imo, he wanted a "real world", and the real world isn't fair.
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Old 2012-09-30, 12:52   Link #153
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Yui was never meant to be used as a "game balance" feature at all. She was programmed to aid players to cope with mental stress considering the inherent aspect of a VRMMORPG.
However, her being disposed is probably another fact pointing that Kayaba probably wanted a VRMMORPG that can bring fantasy into reality, so no almighty AI as assist for players (which means the "game" has even less "game" flavor considering players are really on their own).

Cardinal is the only thing that was described as the main factor of game balance. And really, even if Yui was there to help people in their grief, that absolutely doesn't make the game any "fair", since she normally has -no- purpose of making the game easier whatsoever: if she was to use again admin privilege to nuke a boss, she would be considered rogue AI in that situation.

The game is "fair" as a regular MMORPG, but stops being reasonable when trial and error means permanent death. If SAO didn't have the "hardcore mode" toggled on permanently, the game would have been fairly normal in fact.
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Old 2012-09-30, 12:57   Link #154
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Yui was never meant to be used as a "game balance" feature at all.
She describes herself as part of that system. Taking care of the players' mental state is part of keeping the balance of the game. Therefore removing her from her functions disrupts that balance. I'd say that makes things unfair.
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Old 2012-09-30, 12:59   Link #155
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
The world of SAO stopped being fair when Kayaba prevented Yui from doing her job. Yui is part of the system that was created to keep the balance inside the game, to keep things fair. The only reason her functions weren't carried on by Cardinal is that they needed a more human-like program to so, but in a way, she was also part of Cardinal.

The moment Kayaba tampered with that, the game stopped being fair, and I think Kirito realized that then.

I think Kayaba never really wanted SAO to be fair anyway, because a game is fair. Kayaba didn't want a game imo, he wanted a "real world", and the real world isn't fair.
You know what would have been fair? Letting people go instead of trapping them into a death game. But obviously that's not what Kirito meant, so let it go already.
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Old 2012-09-30, 13:01   Link #156
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
so let it go already.
Let go of what? It was my first post in that discussion. No need to be rude you know.
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Old 2012-09-30, 13:04   Link #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
She describes herself as part of that system. Taking care of the players' mental state is part of keeping the balance of the game. Therefore removing her from her functions disrupts that balance. I'd say that makes things unfair.
No, balance of the game is about every parameters that maintain the game achievable, to prevent it to be too easy or too hard.
The balance of any game is absolutely not affected by the players at all, otherwise you are implying that any mental unbalanced player with any regular game would make the game development faulty.
Due to the inherent aspect of VRMMORPG, mental assistance isn't surprising, but absolutely not compulsory at all. It is aimed basically for players convenience, but has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game or the aspect of making it complete.

A system is more than simply regulating the balance of the game: various elements are to be taken care of, such like latency, spawning rate etc, which means a game system requires a lot more than just game balancing.

You never hear developpers addressing issues with in-game abuse etc when they talk about game balance, do you? That's exactly the point: it is irrelevant.
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Old 2012-09-30, 13:07   Link #158
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Let go of what? It was my first post in that discussion. No need to be rude you know.
Yeah, sorry, but I'm getting tired about people using Kirito's comment about fairness the way kids whine about a game being unfair because they don't like the outcome. (And that's been going on since the murder case episode.)

It was just a comment about how a single player wouldn't have unlimited PvP capacity like that. It just meant the game was balanced. It didn't mean it was pleasant, or that you had to screw up particularly badly to die. It certainly didn't say anything one way or the other about the game containing AI therapists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Due to the inherent aspect of VRMMORPG, mental assistance isn't surprising, but absolutely not compulsory at all. It is aimed basically for players convenience, but has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game or the aspect of making it complete.
That, and it's a cheap way to keep players coming back. "Pay your subscription or you'll never see Yui again!"
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Old 2012-09-30, 13:12   Link #159
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Well. my point is the game seems to be designed to gradually weed out players

which I suppose, can have its own sense of fairness

but my point is that this game seems to be designed so that a few thousand enter and maybe only 3 digits survive to the end

it's no longer a game where say.. 5000 people enter and because of good tactics and playing it smart, 4000 made it out alive
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Old 2012-09-30, 13:14   Link #160
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Well. my point is the game seems to be designed to gradually weed out players

which I suppose, can have its own sense of fairness

but my point is that this game seems to be designed so that a few thousand enter and maybe only 3 digits survive to the end
It's important to keep in mind that the situation when Kirito made that statement, vs. today is rather different. I doubt he'd make such a statement if asked about it now.
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