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Old 2012-11-04, 09:27   Link #221
Randrak42
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I have this horrible feeling that they will do the Picture Book as a group rather than Riki working on it himself...which will be a horrible idea...
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:54   Link #222
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Wow, that's actually a good idea. Not that I'll be there to see it of course - but a team effort will be a good way to show the Little Busters! group as a group. Though I've heard the group isn't complete as of yet...
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:56   Link #223
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Balzac View Post
Wow, that's actually a good idea. Not that I'll be there to see it of course - but a team effort will be a good way to show the Little Busters! group as a group. Though I've heard the group isn't complete as of yet...
That's a HORRIBLE IDEA! Unless of course they really intend to take away the romance aspect of the routes AND take away the development Rikki was supposed to get.
Kyousuke's whole plan was to have Rikki and Rin grow stronger in that world, if the LB do EVERYTHING together it takes away that propose because they will forever be dependent on each other. If Rikki and Rin do everything together with the group the whole point of that world just vanishes...it's nice to see the group being together and doing stuff but not when it goes against the very purpose of the world they are in (and the original series).

I just remembered something dreadful after rereading Komari's breakdown scene in the VN.
There is one other incredibly heart-wrenching dramatic scene that I really hope the anime doesn't butcher...Kud's call to Rikki.
There has never been a seen in any VN, Anime, Manga, Movie, Book or any story that has made my heart sink like this (many have come close but Miyako Suzuta did an impeccable job in this scene).
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:14   Link #224
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But if the format they're going for is a continuous one, which from comments I'm reading is the case, then Riki and Rin will become strong as a result of the natural progression of events in the plot. Resets won't have to be apparent - to the viewer - to give that sense of growth in them. Riki's growth doesn't have to come from a specific aspect of a romantic route; there are a lot of other things the animators can come up with to reinforce that fact better.

Again in my opinion - though I'm getting tired of having to reiterate it - romance in Little Busters! doesn't have that much of an importance when compared to the bigger overall plot. It wasn't needed for Riki and Rin to be able to be strong. One can make an argument that they are important by themselves and as explorations of a heroine's self, and I agree, but as for the "world"? No - friendship would be a good place for the animators to focus on.

One can get away with just using Rin and Rik(Rin1 or Rin2)i as the one "route" where they go strong from start to finish without need for any of the other heroine routes (in which Rin had little development anyway), and it wouldn't be that unfeasible. Jun Maeda was able to accomplish that in the vanilla game. For me, take away the heroine routes save for Rin's, leaving only the common route with a lot of Rin-focused events, and one gets the sequence of events where Rin and Riki become strong. It's boorish and takes away much of the point of "resets", but for that aspect of Little Busters! it can work.

Now, you are of course, reserved to your opinions and that's applaudable. I'm just here to lay down mine, as we are all fans here, and game veterans at that.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:24   Link #225
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The problem I see with that is if Rin was already strong when Kousuke sends her off to that place (was it a school?), then it wouldn't be very believable when she broke down. Her being "weak" is an important part of the plot which should not be ignored.

If we have a character, who is already strong, gets sent off to help some kids, and comes back broken... That would not make much sense to me.

And for Riki. If we take him as already strong, there would be no reason for him to run away. Instead, he would face his problems with his own strength and not succumb to his weakness and flee.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:32   Link #226
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Balzac View Post
But if the format they're going for is a continuous one, which from comments I'm reading is the case, then Riki and Rin will become strong as a result of the natural progression of events in the plot. Resets won't have to be apparent - to the viewer - to give that sense of growth in them. Riki's growth doesn't have to come from a specific aspect of a romantic route; there are a lot of other things the animators can come up with to reinforce that fact better.

Again in my opinion - though I'm getting tired of having to reiterate it - romance in Little Busters! doesn't have that much of an importance when compared to the bigger overall plot. It wasn't needed for Riki and Rin to be able to be strong. One can make an argument that they are important by themselves and as explorations of a heroine's self, and I agree, but as for the "world"? No - friendship would be a good place for the animators to focus on.

One can get away with just using Rin and Rik(Rin1 or Rin2)i as the one "route" where they go strong from start to finish without need for any of the other heroine routes (in which Rin had little development anyway), and it wouldn't be that unfeasible. Jun Maeda was able to accomplish that in the vanilla game. For me, take away the heroine routes save for Rin's, leaving only the common route with a lot of Rin-focused events, and one gets the sequence of events where Rin and Riki become strong. It's boorish and takes away much of the point of "resets", but for that aspect of Little Busters! it can work.

Now, you are of course, reserved to your opinions and that's applaudable. I'm just here to lay down mine, as we are all fans here, and game veterans at that.
Well personally take away the other girl routes and keep to just Rin's routes and the VN would be nothing but a passing memory for me right now. It was Riki's interactions with the other girls in their own routes along with his character development after each route that really got me hooked into the series. I admit I'm not completely unbiased, take away Kurugaya and Kud and the whole series can go to hell as far as I'm concerned...though if they were never introduced I wouldn't know any better and just keeping it with the Common Route and Rin Routes...well it wouldn't be enough to keep me interested in the series for this long. Even during Refrain I felt a severe lack of the other heroines (though it highly compensated it with the fact that it focused on the original LB crew).
And god-forbid if they dared to introduce the girls and not make routes for each one...it would be a horrible move for a VN.

But I do agree, the romance is secondary to the plot (well kinda...in certain routes like Anego's it is a key feature that cannot be taken out) but Riki and Rin's development is not.
My major point before was that...if Riki keeps doing things in a group, if he keeps depending on others to solve the problems then he isn't getting any stronger and independent which was not only Kyousuke's plan but what we saw through the whole thing with the routes.
Riki going through each route and solving each girl's problems ALONE was a key feature to the plot, watching him grow stronger and more independent was super important and actually enjoyable...after each route you could actually see how stronger he was in his responses, it was something the VN did remarkably well (it wasn't just seen in his stats, actions and responses to certain things changed bit by bit and evolved).
If the whole group gets involved in all the girls routes from now on...Riki can't get independent, Kyousuke will always be the leader that tells him what he should be doing, Kengo will always be the one with the good advices he needs to make a decision and Masato will always be there to protect him.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:32   Link #227
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If one talks about the game, by Rin2...she is strong, together with Riki. "Strong" in the sense that no one can possibly best them in the battle rankings (except for maybe Mask), and being big boons when it comes to batting in the baseball game. One goes into Rin2 with the "stronger" Riki and Rin. Unfortunately, they're not yet "strong enough" to face what comes in Rin 2.

It is what Kyousuke was hoping for would happen, too. After all the resets, after the Kanata and Saya shenanigans and distractions, Riki and Rin finally get there, but when push came to shove, Riki was too weak and Rin succumbed to her childhood fears and the two were "cast to darkness"

EDIT: This was for Snuffle above.

EDIT: in answer to Randrak

This is why I mentioned "doesn't have to come from a specific aspect of a romantic route". I brought this up because you were implying that Riki being helped by the Little Busters! in writing the picture book is going to undermine the original concept in the VN, but it can still work out to be something primarily made by himself (and Rin) with ideas or aid by the other members (that have already joined). It shouldn't have to take away the original impact - unless they make it that the purely Romantic parts like Riki encouraging Komari to keep smiling at the rooftop will be accompanied by all the rest giving their support at the same time, or if the group butts in to Haruka's dilemma (visiting their house?), or the group somehow all remembering who Mio really was. Now that wouldn't work.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:40   Link #228
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Originally Posted by Balzac View Post
If one talks about the game, by Rin2...she is strong, together with Riki. "Strong" in the sense that no one can possibly best them in the battle rankings (except for maybe Mask), and being big boons when it comes to batting in the baseball game. One goes into Rin2 with the "stronger" Riki and Rin. Unfortunately, they're not yet "strong enough" to face what comes in Rin 2.

It is what Kyousuke was hoping for would happen, too. After all the resets, after the Kanata and Saya shenanigans and distractions, Riki and Rin finally get there, but when push came to shove, Riki was too weak and Rin succumbed to her childhood fears and the two were "cast to darkness"

EDIT: This was for Snuffle above.
So you're saying that just because in Rin2 they were not strong enough anyway, the development and strength they gain through the other routes can be disregarded?

And you're forgetting that come Refrain they are clearly much stronger...Riki specially is miles ahead of what he was before the first loop when we get to Refrain and Rin as well once she gets over the mental breakdown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balzac View Post
This is why I mentioned "doesn't have to come from a specific aspect of a romantic route". I brought this up because you were implying that Riki being helped by the Little Busters! in writing the picture book is going to undermine the original concept in the VN, but it can still work out to be something primarily made by himself (and Rin) with ideas or aid by the other members (that have already joined). It shouldn't have to take away the original impact - unless they make it that the purely Romantic parts like Riki encouraging Komari to keep smiling at the rooftop will be accompanied by all the rest giving their support at the same time, or if the group butts in to Haruka's dilemma (visiting their house?), or the group somehow all remembering who Mio really was. Now that wouldn't work.
Hell, imagine the whole group being involved in Anego's route once the loops start happening...that would just wreck everything.

Ah well...call me a VN purist...Romance...Development...Loops...everythin g from the VN should be perfectly transferred to the Anime or else...why even bother making it.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:45   Link #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balzac View Post
If one talks about the game, by Rin2...she is strong, together with Riki. "Strong" in the sense that no one can possibly best them in the battle rankings (except for maybe Mask), and being big boons when it comes to batting in the baseball game. One goes into Rin2 with the "stronger" Riki and Rin. Unfortunately, they're not yet "strong enough" to face what comes in Rin 2.

It is what Kyousuke was hoping for would happen, too. After all the resets, after the Kanata and Saya shenanigans and distractions, Riki and Rin finally get there, but when push came to shove, Riki was too weak and Rin succumbed to her childhood fears and the two were "cast to darkness"
If we're talking strictly about the VN, then yes I agree with you. Riki and Rin are not strong enough while going through Rin 2, thus all those tragedies happened.

I was more focusing comparing how anime Riki and Rin are compared to how they are in the VN. Specifically Riki, he is already courageous enough to stand up to that old guy in the retirement home (whatever his name was). With that kind of courage, why would he run away? Why would he not stand up to Kousuke? Why would he just stand by and watch as Rin is being sent away? With the level of confidence he has right now in the anime, I'm having a bit of trouble picturing him not doing what he really wants to do instead of just thinking it.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:59   Link #230
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So you're saying that just because in Rin2 they were not strong enough anyway, the development and strength they gain through the other routes can be disregarded?
As said, that response was for Snuffle. For your inquiry, it really speaks much of Rin and Riki's character. Yes, they were able to grow in the other routes, Riki arguably more than Rin as we, the reader could see, but it "wasn't enough" for Kyousuke's ultimate plan. Riki only gains his great conviction after Rin2 ends, Rin gets hers after the "Last Farewell".

Edited out "final conviction": It stands to better reason they get their final conviction after the hospital scene.
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Old 2012-11-04, 16:02   Link #231
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That's another point. Right now, there is a major problem with the anime: you have to make it clear that Riki is getting stronger over the course of the routes, in order to put sense to Kyousuke's attempts, which of course needs Riki to start with a wimpy startup, which is not exactly the case.

And so far, it isn't faring too well in term of such exposure. Much to the contrary, I nearly can see anime Riki able to deal with Rin in the real world without the need of the strengthening process through the loops as of now.
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Old 2012-11-04, 16:09   Link #232
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Would be funny that we are already in Refrain and the Komari route that the anime is in now is a flashback/dream of Riki after he fell to sleep because of his narcolepsy at the end of episode 2 . Atleast it would make the montage of clips from the other routes in episode 2 more sense to me.

*walks away again from this thread, because i didn't care that much for LB*
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Old 2012-11-04, 16:16   Link #233
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Balzac View Post
As said, that response was for Snuffle. For your inquiry, it really speaks much of Rin and Riki's character. Yes, they were able to grow in the other routes, Riki arguably more than Rin as we, the reader could see, but it "wasn't enough" for Kyousuke's ultimate plan. Riki only gains his great conviction after Rin2 ends, Rin gets hers after the "Last Farewell".

Edited out "final conviction": It stands to better reason they get their final conviction after the hospital scene.
It wasn't a response to me but I still had an opinion about it ^^

Actually it WAS enough for Kyousuke's ultimate plan...they still gained the necessary strength before the world ended. It was NEVER stated by Kyousuke or any other that the events of Rin2 were supposed to be some kind of "final test" to see if they could survive or not. However it was the state Rin was left in that made Kyousuke believe he had failed, which was later proven to be untrue when they showed great strength in Refrain. Rin2 wasn't a test, but another way to strengthen the two, it just had a bad effect on Rin.

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That's another point. Right now, there is a major problem with the anime: you have to make it clear that Riki is getting stronger over the course of the routes, in order to put sense to Kyousuke's attempts, which of course needs Riki to start with a wimpy startup, which is not exactly the case.

And so far, it isn't faring too well in term of such exposure. Much to the contrary, I nearly can see anime Riki able to deal with Rin in the real world without the need of the strengthening process through the loops as of now.
Pretty much, both Riki and Rin seem pretty developed since episode one. I've said it many times before but in the span of a single episode Rin seemed to go from first loop to third loop in term of mental fortitude...which really annoyed me.
Riki, despite behaving similar to the VN first loop still feels much, much stronger than he should be by the start of the series.

It just feels that they are throwing Riki's development plan out the window. Frankly at times I dunno what the anime wants...if they want to follow the VN or not.
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Old 2012-11-04, 16:32   Link #234
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Actually it WAS enough for Kyousuke's ultimate plan...they still gained the necessary strength before the world ended. It was NEVER stated by Kyousuke or any other that the events of Rin2 were supposed to be some kind of "final test" to see if they could survive or not. However it was the state Rin was left in that made Kyousuke believe he had failed, which was later proven to be untrue when they showed great strength in Refrain. Rin2 wasn't a test, but another way to strengthen the two, it just had a bad effect on Rin.
My impression was different; Rin2 was Kyousuke's "final plan" so to speak: in his portion of the spoiler route, the part where Rin was able to handle the duty of a student guide (and note, one can also include the development Kyousuke was able to see in his sister throughout the resets) was his cue for a final "mission" for Rin with the transfer. Had Rin succeeded, they would've been able to get going with finishing the endless semester earlier.

However, the storytelling dictates otherwise, and this is also a poignant part of the writing. What Kyousuke failed to take into account were Riki and Rin's continuing "childishness" in addition to his callous methods. It dragged them down to darkness, convincing Kengo that no matter what those two wouldn't change - "they would still fall into darkness yet again" (quoted from Refrain) - thereby giving him the false decision of keeping the endless semester forever. It is only through one final trial, one not wholly engineered by Kyousuke, that Rin and Riki are able to overcome their shortcomings by themselves (Rin's arguably much later than Riki's). As an added bonus, Riki was able to get the original group back together without much of Kyousuke's help (Kengo hint and Masato manipulation notwithstanding), and also gave Kyousuke himself hope and the reassurance that in the end, their efforts hadn't all been for nothing; Riki and Rin had genuinely grown.
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Old 2012-11-04, 16:48   Link #235
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My impression was different; Rin2 was Kyousuke's "final plan" so to speak: in his portion of the spoiler route, the part where Rin was able to handle the duty of a student guide (and note, one can also include the development Kyousuke was able to see in his sister throughout the resets) was his cue for a final "mission" for Rin with the transfer. Had Rin succeeded, they would've been able to get going with finishing the endless semester earlier.

However, the storytelling dictates otherwise, and this is also a poignant part of the writing. What Kyousuke failed to take into account were Riki and Rin's continuing "childishness" in addition to his callous methods. It dragged them down to darkness, convincing Kengo that no matter what those two wouldn't change - "they would still fall into darkness yet again" (quoted from Refrain) - thereby giving him the false decision of keeping the endless semester forever. It is only through one final trial, one not wholly engineered by Kyousuke, that Rin and Riki are able to overcome their shortcomings by themselves (Rin's arguably much later than Riki's). As an added bonus, Riki was able to get the original group back together without much of Kyousuke's help (Kengo hint and Masato manipulation notwithstanding), and also gave Kyousuke himself hope and the reassurance that in the end, their efforts hadn't all been for nothing; Riki and Rin had genuinely grown.
Ok then, let's say that Rin2 WAS Kyousuke's final test that they failed. Going back to the original point I'll ask again then, does their apparent failure mean that any development Riki got during the other routes was unnecessary? Could Riki after just going through Rin 1 and 2 really be strong enough to face Refrain and the Buss Crash?

I personally don't believe he would, not after seeing how he was before the first loop.
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Old 2012-11-04, 17:03   Link #236
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I already wrote my answer above.

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Originally Posted by Balzac View Post
For your inquiry, it really speaks much of Rin and Riki's character. Yes, they were able to grow in the other routes, Riki arguably more than Rin as we, the reader could see, but it "wasn't enough" for Kyousuke's ultimate plan. Riki only gains his great conviction after Rin2 ends, Rin gets hers after the "Last Farewell".
I'll separate my view on the necessity of each of the other heroine routes with the concept that each in some ways develop Riki's strength, bit by bit. However, it just isn't enough, as can be seen clearly in Rin2. One can see echoes of Riki's desire to help the girls in Riki's concern for a very frightened Rin. One can see this collide with Kyousuke's ironclad decision to stick to the scenario he'd laid out. As I said, Rin2 would not negate the characters' growth, it is just an extension of their development as characters according to the overall plot. Do you get me?

Again, we see the sequence Riki + Rin interact with the group in common > Riki gains a small measure of inner strength and will from each heroine routes >resets back to common with Riki (and Rin) just a little bit stronger than before, but still fundamentally the same > Rin2 Kyousuke decides Rin's adequately prepared for his final challenge, however he doesn't take into account that they hadn't reached genuine growth (as I stated above). They chicken out, Riki especially, and take the cowardly route, unable to face the "reality". > Rin is damaged, Kyousuke blames himself, setting the stage for Refrain > Riki retains all cumulative growth from the reset, Rin also, but Riki has to coax it out first, "healing" her. It's a continuous development which in no way "undermines" the heroine routes, if that's what you seem to be bothered about.

However, I do stand by my opinion that the romance routes aren't essential to the overall picture, Kyousuke's scheme as it were. But that's a wholly different discussion, and is a matter of opinion.

EDIT: My discussion is better served in the actual game thread, as that's what I'm actively discussing, not any sort of speculation about the development of an anime I'm not viewing. In fact, I just initially chimed in on a view about the picture book making, and it blossomed into something bigger

Last Edit: Carry on. With speculatin' and all that jazz.
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Old 2012-11-04, 17:41   Link #237
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Yes, that was what was bothering me, romance aside, you seemed to be belittling the development Riki got during the other girls routes by saying that the story could have easily been just Rin 1/2+Refrain.

As for the romance...for the overall plot (Kyousuke's plan and whatnot) it is not a key point, however it is a key plot point for some of the routes (mainly Anego, Kud and Mio's routes)...which the anime seems to be leaving behind, which in turn can royally screw up the routes.
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Old 2012-11-04, 17:53   Link #238
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All I can hope for now is that they don't screw up Anego or Refrain.

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Old 2012-11-04, 18:00   Link #239
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All I can hope for now is that they don't screw up Anego or Refrain.

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Old 2012-11-04, 18:35   Link #240
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Maybe I'm strange, but I felt that all the non-Rin routes were complete crap. Like sure there were amusing parts to them, but there was no emotional evocation for me. So, I have to agree with Balzac that Rin1+2-> Refrain would be very reasonable.

On the other hand, I also have to completely agree with the sentiments that Riki is really surprisingly competent right now. It seems that he doesn't really have much farther to go. But I kinda felt this way in all the non-Rin routes (well except Kurugaya's route). It always felt like he knew what he should do to achieve his goals of helping the girls become happy. He doesn't really rely on Kyousuke. In Kurugaya's route, everything was just super confusing for everyone involved. So, I'm not sure if it's a real complaint about the show that Riki is competent in the heroine routes as I felt it was the same in the VN too.
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