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Old 2013-05-16, 22:52   Link #361
Irenesharda
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Well, as the JURIA system (which I also think is stupid and unnecessary) is new and experimental and the only ones who are fit to supposedly test with it are the Fail 5 crew, I highly doubt the mind wiping had anything to do with that, especially since it was started even before they created the JURIA systems.

In fact I think it was Rin who mentions that they wipe the kid soldiers minds when they come into the academy so that they will be perfect soldiers. This is not just Team Rabbits, this is Team Doberman and EVERYONE in the MJP. I think that's an incredibly stupid thing to do with teens since they need that upbringing and those memories to make them who they are. without them, they begin floundering like the Fail 5 are, not knowing where they belong, not having memories of being safe and comforted as children, not even having families in order to fight for.

You get 20 soldiers fighting for their families, they are better than 50 hired guns.

And what are they going to do when the war's over, as they've mentioned in the show. They'll basically just belong to the military to fight whenever they say fight. You'll have an entire generation of maladjusted people who are just being trained to fight and don't really know who they are.
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Old 2013-05-16, 23:12   Link #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
Well, as the JURIA system (which I also think is stupid and unnecessary) is new and experimental and the only ones who are fit to supposedly test with it are the Fail 5 crew, I highly doubt the mind wiping had anything to do with that, especially since it was started even before they created the JURIA systems.

In fact I think it was Rin who mentions that they wipe the kid soldiers minds when they come into the academy so that they will be perfect soldiers. This is not just Team Rabbits, this is Team Doberman and EVERYONE in the MJP. I think that's an incredibly stupid thing to do with teens since they need that upbringing and those memories to make them who they are. without them, they begin floundering like the Fail 5 are, not knowing where they belong, not having memories of being safe and comforted as children, not even having families in order to fight for.

You get 20 soldiers fighting for their families, they are better than 50 hired guns.

And what are they going to do when the war's over, as they've mentioned in the show. They'll basically just belong to the military to fight whenever they say fight. You'll have an entire generation of maladjusted people who are just being trained to fight and don't really know who they are.
When it comes to non-JURAI mechs, I agree. Better to have soldiers fighting for their families than soldiers fighting for some shady military that would actually do this sort of thing to them.

I'm very thankful that Amane spoke out against this mindwipe/no families business, because otherwise I'd be totally weirded out at nobody taking moral umbrage over this.
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Old 2013-05-17, 00:13   Link #363
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Yes, there's a definite cruelty to it. But from a ruthless and purely pragmatic perspective, perhaps it does help. Mind you, I think that even from a purely pragmatic perspective, it only makes sense given the particular strengths and weaknesses of the JURAI-system. If these were Gundam super-mechs, say, then I don't think there'd be much benefit to this genetically engineered and later mind-wiped approach.
In fact, there is. Remember the druggies and Extended pilots employed by Atlantic Federation/Earth Alliance in SEED and SEED Destiny? They piloted Raider, Calamity, Forbidden, Gaia, Chaos, Abyss and Destroy. All of them are advanced Gundams. The Federation did more-or-less just like what you said (the Extendeds are shown having their memories wiped almost daily) and they benefited much from those skilled-but-no-memory pilots.
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Old 2013-05-17, 00:17   Link #364
Triple_R
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
In fact, it does. Remember the druggies and Extended pilots employed by Atlantic Federation/Earth Alliance in SEED and SEED Destiny? They piloted Raider, Calamity, Forbidden, Gaia, Chaos, Abyss and Destroy. All of them are advanced Gundams. The Federation did more-or-less just like what you said (the Extendeds are shown having their memories wiped almost daily) and they benefited much from those skilled-but-no-memory pilots.
But that wasn't about one big memory-wipe. That was about... drugging them up. The Naturals wanted a counter for the Coordinators genetic engineering. So they turned to drugs (i.e. think steroids).
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Old 2013-05-17, 00:25   Link #365
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But that wasn't about one big memory-wipe. That was about... drugging them up. The Naturals wanted a counter for the Coordinators genetic engineering. So they turned to drugs (i.e. think steroids).
The MJP children got their memory wiped but still have the genetically altered potential and still retain whatever unique skill they have during childhood. That's more-or-less the same thing with the Extendeds. It's basically "wipe the unnecessary memories and keep the skill so they'll be more focused" method. And don't forget that the druggies and Extendeds get their memories about their past wiped clean before becoming pilots, just like MJP kids.
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Old 2013-05-17, 00:46   Link #366
Irenesharda
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
The MJP children got their memory wiped but still have the genetically altered potential and still retain whatever unique skill they have during childhood. That's more-or-less the same thing with the Extendeds. It's basically "wipe the unnecessary memories and keep the skill so they'll be more focused" method. And don't forget that the druggies and Extendeds get their memories about their past wiped clean before becoming pilots, just like MJP kids.
I think though a big difference is that Extendeds, the Coordinators, pseudo-Newtypes, and others in the Gundam-verse who have had their memory-wiped are actually turned into killing machines to a degree. You can even see a visible difference in the way they act and think and how they are superior to other soldiers.

They mention that there is a difference between students of the MJP and others but we really see none of that. That act just like any other regular characters/mecha pilots . Even their supposed "survival skills" have really yet to be seen. Also, that has nothing to do with their mental states which is what having a wiped memory would affect.

Unlike those others, these kids aren't being conditioned or trained to not feel or not to regret, or anything like that. They are acting just like regular kids, they are trained like regular cadets, they even give them leave and time off so they can relax. This completely goes against the so-called conditioning that supposedly makes them into perfect soldiers so that they don't have regrets. They are now making new memories, and friends and connections, so why couldn't they keep the ones they had? Especially when the ones they have as children stabilize them as teenagers, and later as adults?
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Old 2013-05-17, 01:06   Link #367
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
I think though a big difference is that Extendeds, the Coordinators, pseudo-Newtypes, and others in the Gundam-verse who have had their memory-wiped are actually turned into killing machines to a degree. You can even see a visible difference in the way they act and think and how they are superior to other soldiers.

They mention that there is a difference between students of the MJP and others but we really see none of that. That act just like any other regular characters/mecha pilots . Even their supposed "survival skills" have really yet to be seen. Also, that has nothing to do with their mental states which is what having a wiped memory would affect.

Unlike those others, these kids aren't being conditioned or trained to not feel or not to regret, or anything like that. They are acting just like regular kids, they are trained like regular cadets, they even give them leave and time off so they can relax. This completely goes against the so-called conditioning that supposedly makes them into perfect soldiers so that they don't have regrets. They are now making new memories, and friends and connections, so why couldn't they keep the ones they had? Especially when the ones they have as children stabilize them as teenagers, and later as adults?
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing your point above. What I’m arguing is Triple R’s point about mind-wipe approach to potential pilots won’t benefit much if they’re piloting Gundams, while the data I presented above suggest otherwise. In short, both of them got their memories wiped, but MJP kids have their genetically-engineered potentials while the druggies and Extendeds have their drugs. Plus, both Druggies Gundams and JURIA system-equipped Units seem to be difficult to master by regular pilots.
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Old 2013-05-17, 01:50   Link #368
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Spoiler for Episode 7:
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Old 2013-05-17, 02:16   Link #369
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Well the gene-babies were originally meant for space colonization not combat.

Only when the war came did MJP thought of using these Augments.
Yeah, originaly tey they were meant to be normal kids, that's why they were putten into normal families. But when war came these kids were easy way obtain so needed manpower for battles espicaly due their bodies being modified for live in space.

I think mind wipe might be not just needed, but arguably more humane as well.
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Old 2013-05-17, 03:14   Link #370
Irenesharda
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That is true, but it was decided before they were given to foster families that they were going to be put into the military, because as of this point the children are being genetically engineered for not just space life, but for battle as well.

They didn't just pick kids and kidnap them. The families that had them knew they had to give them up at the age of 12. My question, is why disrupt a teen's mental health even more than it already is by thrusting them into war at an early age, by erasing the only peaceful memories they have? You're years as a child are extremely important and without them you begin floundering with no place to call your own or really belong. What would happen if you didn't get a team like Rabbits or Doberman with no friends or colleagues. You would have nothing. Nothing but yourself and war. Would you trust someone like that, especially a teen with already raging emotions, out there on the battlefield?
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Old 2013-05-17, 03:39   Link #371
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That's where are you wrong. They were engineered for space live only. Having potential good well in space battles is mere direct result of it. When program started noone even knew about aliens existence yet.

But when war started they it was decided transfer and train them for military use.
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Old 2013-05-17, 03:57   Link #372
Irenesharda
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That's where are you wrong. They were engineered for space live only. Having potential good well in space battles is mere direct result of it. When program started noone even knew about aliens existence yet.

But when war started they it was decided transfer and train them for military use.
Remember this isn't the first year this was done. Fail 5 team already has other groups of soldiers before them who underwent the same thing before them, such as Team Doberman. Sure the first years might not have been meant for battle, but subsequent years?

Also, if the smarter characters like Rin and Amane are questioning the validity of the MJP program and the wiping of students minds and breeding children for battle, then what they are doing can't be humane. The higher ups like that idiot vice-commander see them as products owned by the military. And Rin has stated specifically that they were genetically engineered to become soldiers. So, I think it did start out as being non-military, but is has be streamlined by this point to being all military. At this point even the students know their backgrounds and that they were born and bred for war.
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Old 2013-05-17, 04:21   Link #373
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Anyway, I’m also interested with the crystals the Wulgarus equipped on their bracelets. It seems like some kind of drugs since they look a bit “high” for a minute when they put them on (Theoria’s “high” face before she grabbed that story book in episode 3 comes to mind).

Also, I suspect all of the new systems introduced recently by Simon (JURIA system, ASHMB, etc) had something to do with leaked Wulgaru technology or at least related to Theoria considering how Simon was speaking to her with full-respect back in episode 2 when they’re watching Fail 5 doing their mission together. Theoria could be a Wulgaru who supports Simon & MJP behind the scene.
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Old 2013-05-17, 04:45   Link #374
Tenzen12
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
Remember this isn't the first year this was done. Fail 5 team already has other groups of soldiers before them who underwent the same thing before them, such as Team Doberman. Sure the first years might not have been meant for battle, but subsequent years?

Also, if the smarter characters like Rin and Amane are questioning the validity of the MJP program and the wiping of students minds and breeding children for battle, then what they are doing can't be humane. The higher ups like that idiot vice-commander see them as products owned by the military. And Rin has stated specifically that they were genetically engineered to become soldiers. So, I think it did start out as being non-military, but is has be streamlined by this point to being all military. At this point even the students know their backgrounds and that they were born and bred for war.
In begening all were put in families, but when war started the took all 12 yers old and older. obviously younger one remained were they were. First years were first batch other ensues as they get older. That doesn't change that they weren't put there to become soldiers originally.

Differen't matter would be kids that are babies up three or four years of age, if military used same approach with them (which isn't entirely impossible) you would be right.

And of course Rin and other would question that, whole issue is moraly gray if not already black. What I said about being humane that mind wiping MIGHT BE KINDER than rip children off from their parrents send them to battle

Last edited by Tenzen12; 2013-05-17 at 05:58.
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Old 2013-05-17, 05:21   Link #375
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Well the Humans and Wulgur will have a hard time finding common ground.

While Humans aren't all saints it is that thin veneer of civilization that keeps us from utterly destroying ourselves.

The Wulgur don't have the same moral restraints. I can see the reason why the Wulgur target other races every 300 years. Without an outlet for their aggressive instincts they will turn upon each other.

Human instinct to socialize which result to altruism and other such emotions are part of out survival instinct as a species.

So MJP or Simon is counting on Team Rabbits and the Juria system survival instincts to beat Wulgur's base instincts.
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Old 2013-05-17, 05:24   Link #376
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do Wulgurs worship the chaos gods of Warhammer or something?
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Old 2013-05-17, 05:43   Link #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing your point above. What I’m arguing is Triple R’s point about mind-wipe approach to potential pilots won’t benefit much if they’re piloting Gundams, while the data I presented above suggest otherwise.
And my point to you is that the druggies in Gundam Seed benefited from the drugs, not the mindwipe, per se. Geez, man, you're being really nitpicky about this.

My main point is that if people are piloting a typical Gundam (or any non-JURAI-based mecha, really), then mind-wiping them is of dubious and questionable worth. It should be noted that even those druggies you mentioned ultimately didn't do all that well when put up against elite, non-mindwiped opponents.
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Old 2013-05-17, 06:52   Link #378
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I'm starting to wonder if the mind-wipe thing will turn out to be a red herring, that maybe they're all 'vat grown' and only 'born' just before going to academy. Then the memory wipe is just a cover story.

And hey, let's have a big press conference and tell the world what our battle plan is! What could possibly go wrong?
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Old 2013-05-17, 07:08   Link #379
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And my point to you is that the druggies in Gundam Seed benefited from the drugs, not the mindwipe, per se. Geez, man, you're being really nitpicky about this.
I don’t deny the benefits from the drugs at all, but we’re talking about the benefit of the memory-wipe here. I say the memory-wipe still has benefits, at least for their fighting capabilities and for those who enroll them. Those druggies don’t remember their past, so the military and piloting the Gundam is all they have. When piloting and fighting is all they have, they’d do their best at it. It’s even more so with the Extended’s. The memory wiping really does benefit them during fighting because they don’t have to worry about other little things they encounter everyday and just concentrate on bringing their Gundams capability to the max. If not, they won’t be able to keep up with the likes of Kira and Athrun. Of course, we see these benefits from the EA’s POV just like how we see the mind-wiped students/pilots benefits MJP in terms of having obedient people that will do their best at being soldiers/pilots since that’s all they have (at least during this the war).

And furthermore, I think this comment of yours is also very much applicable to those druggies and Extendeds:
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Ah, but what if they have no real home to go to? What if the closest thing they have to a home (and family) is their training academy, the ships they serve on, their fellow pilots, their superior officers, and the crews that maintain their mechs? Running away from battle would only serve to disappoint the people of "their home"; it would only serve to disappoint "their family". Their "family" will probably tell them to get back out there and fight. There's no comforting civilian home to run to. There's no "peaceful civilian life" fallback option there.
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It should be noted that even those druggies you mentioned ultimately didn't do all that well when put up against elite, non-mindwiped opponents.
They’re fighting against coordinators. A race of advanced humans. And considering how many coordinators (in MSs) they one-shot during battles, I’d say they did very well. Most of them got defeated by elite coordinators equipped with SEED in their bodies like Kira, Athrun, and Shinn. Other coordinators have to use tag-team attack to beat them like Yzak (Duel) + Dearka (Buster) against Shani (Forbidden).


PS. Sorry if my comments sounds rude or I come out as being nit-picky to you. Truthfully, I just want to have a nice and healthy arguments. Things might get heat up in this debate, but I’m not being mad at you or anything . This is just how I do things.
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Old 2013-05-17, 08:48   Link #380
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Jiart is wild very unexpectedly.
His Emperor brother is so very talented. Contrary to appearance.
Speaking of the wise ruler that was assassinated and confined relatives, I remember Emperor_Taizong_of_Tang .

Executives of the enemy is also a unique and funny.

"Instinct" is seems to be an important theme of this series.

Crushed cream puff was incompetent as ever. Will he can really catch up. ...
Great battle will have in store next week. Expect.
Aaaaaaah!! I can not wait for the next week!!
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