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Old 2012-10-22, 09:51   Link #81
sunset
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
How about that female sniper in WW2 Russia, that sniped and killed like... what, 200 nazi soldiers?
Oh, if we go by WW2 heroines, weŽll be here all week.
The french resistance alone must have had oodles of uncelebrated warrior women.
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Old 2012-10-22, 10:56   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
So... It's okay for action boys to have a female love interest, but when an action girl gets to be with a guy, it's not??? Gee...
I like male love interests for action girls. But the thing is over here in Japan the action heroines clearly have no male love interests AT ALL and may even have a female love interest (the undertones ahoy). In American film and action, the action girl must always have a man in her life.

But that may be a side effect of the "gender segregation" that Japan takes to media.
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Old 2012-10-22, 11:24   Link #83
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Originally Posted by sunset View Post
I donŽt think IŽve ever seen a Lara Croft love interest, at least not in the games.
Maybe that pretty boy in Angel of Darkness?
Dunno, if they existed they were quite unremarkable for me to completely forget them.
I was thinking the movies, not the games. There's no freakin' way gamer boyz would want to see their lady getting it on with anybody ..
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Old 2012-10-22, 13:07   Link #84
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Sexism in anime usually consists of three types: female characters in lots of actions or poses that are designed to titillate, affirmation of gender roles, and making female characters specifically weaker than male ones. All of these are fantasy-serving depictions that take the place of good charcterization. And when you boil it down, sexism is just an explanation for why a character is written or portrayed poorly.

Action Girls seem to me like a completely unrelated concept from this. Whether the depiction of a particular action girls is sexist would depend on how she is handled. I'm sure there are lots of examples of all these kinds.

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Originally Posted by asaqe View Post
That is one of the problems with Hollywood is the near requirement to force a male love interest into the action girl's life. Why can't she be like a Japanese Heroine, happily in an almost lesbian relationship with some other girl
That's really more a problem that Western action shows in general have a tendency to shoehorn in a romance of some sort. You might as well ask why Hollywood has a near requirement to force a female love interest into the action boy's life.

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Originally Posted by sunset View Post
Oh, if we go by WW2 heroines, weŽll be here all week.
The french resistance alone must have had oodles of uncelebrated warrior women.
The Soviets had some 800,000 women in the Red Army during World War II, many of them in front line combat. There were 89 women Heroes of the Soviet Union! It's going to be hard to top that.
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Old 2012-10-22, 21:03   Link #85
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Maybe, but Western Shows should learn from Japan's examples an embrace lesbianism.
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Old 2012-10-22, 21:19   Link #86
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Except that the Japanese didn't truly embrace lesbianism (I could be wrong) but they just don't have as much of that Puritan baggage that is all.
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Old 2012-10-22, 21:29   Link #87
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Originally Posted by asaqe View Post
Maybe, but Western Shows should learn from Japan's examples an embrace lesbianism.
You mean to only have lesbian innuendo? Seriously, there's lots of Western films with lesbians in them, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's true of European TV as well. It might not be common in Hollywood blockbusters or American TV, but it's your own fault for not watching other stuff.
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Old 2012-10-22, 22:58   Link #88
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I'll drop a Xena reference here and wander off.
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Old 2012-10-23, 02:16   Link #89
sunset
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asaqe View Post
Maybe, but Western Shows should learn from Japan's examples an embrace lesbianism.
Why?

Is there something wrong with heterosexual women?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The Soviets had some 800,000 women in the Red Army during World War II, many of them in front line combat. There were 89 women Heroes of the Soviet Union! It's going to be hard to top that.
When I think of soviet warrior women, I usually turn to the female pilots whose night bomb runs filled german hearts with fear. ^^

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-10-23 at 05:38. Reason: Please edit rather than double-posting
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Old 2012-10-23, 03:47   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'll drop a Xena reference here and wander off.
Not too sure about this movie, but I shall drop the title anyway: Heavenly Creatures.
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Old 2012-10-23, 03:52   Link #91
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asage: The embrace of yuri I think you're referring to is just another pandering/fanservice scheme towards men since it's so easily misinterpreted by privilege (both East and West), though, and would be included in the sexist category. With some exceptions, of course.

As a clever dude told me, and which I know ascribe to myself, they should try and write good balanced characters instead of sorting them into categories.
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Old 2012-10-23, 11:40   Link #92
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Originally Posted by NorthernFallout View Post
asage: The embrace of yuri I think you're referring to is just another pandering/fanservice scheme towards men since it's so easily misinterpreted by privilege (both East and West), though, and would be included in the sexist category. With some exceptions, of course.
I don't know about that. Most of the lesbians I've watched in Western shows/movies aren't there for either pandering of fanservice. It's generally treated a lot more seriously than in anime.
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Old 2012-10-23, 11:49   Link #93
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I don't know about that. Most of the lesbians I've watched in Western shows/movies aren't there for either pandering of fanservice. It's generally treated a lot more seriously than in anime.
He is talking about the portrayal of lesbians in anime tho. In my opinion, those are just a poor reason to keep the girls celibate because the target audience would not stand their objects of adoration to be "just another guy's girl". I think this is what the Swede meant by "otaku pandering". As for the issue, I still stand by the opinion that it is still possible for a female character to kick ass, to be a loving wife and/or mother, and still be a strong and dignified character. My role model in that archetype, in fiction, is Sarah Connor. I can't think of an anime character that can stand the comparison to her.
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Old 2012-10-23, 11:57   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'll drop a Xena reference here and wander off.
What about it's sort of Canadian equivalent La Femme Nikita which I always used to see advertised on TV as a kid? Anyone else even remember this, I'm not sure how far down into the states it made it? It was supposedly based on a French film about a delinquent that is forced to become one of France's top assassins and her struggles trying to escape the life of a professional killer. I recall it being pretty good actually and being focused on character drama and morality as opposed to straight up action, but I never really saw all that much of it.
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Old 2012-10-23, 12:39   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
He is talking about the portrayal of lesbians in anime tho. In my opinion, those are just a poor reason to keep the girls celibate because the target audience would not stand their objects of adoration to be "just another guy's girl". I think this is what the Swede meant by "otaku pandering".
That's fair enough - the "Perfect Waifu" syndrome is pretty bad. Branching out further, there's the older-style yuri as characterized by Oniisama E. It's a lot better than some of the current version, but it's still nothing like the Western lesbian works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
As for the issue, I still stand by the opinion that it is still possible for a female character to kick ass, to be a loving wife and/or mother, and still be a strong and dignified character. My role model in that archetype, in fiction, is Sarah Connor. I can't think of an anime character that can stand the comparison to her.
I prefer Ellen Ripley since Sarah was a terrible mother . In anime, Balsa from Moribito compares very well. And if you take the mother part out, Youko from Twelve Kingdoms is pretty good as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
What about it's sort of Canadian equivalent La Femme Nikita which I always used to see advertised on TV as a kid? Anyone else even remember this, I'm not sure how far down into the states it made it? It was supposedly based on a French film about a delinquent that is forced to become one of France's top assassins and her struggles trying to escape the life of a professional killer. I recall it being pretty good actually and being focused on character drama and morality as opposed to straight up action, but I never really saw all that much of it.
There's also the Nikita TV show starring Maggie Q. It's arguably the best version of the story, and the third season just started.
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Old 2012-10-23, 13:13   Link #96
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@4Tran: Yea, what Sheba said. The Wire comes to mind as an example where it's done well, for instance, and I'd agree it's often handled much more seriously. I wanted to point out something bad as well but actually couldn't come up with anything directly.

And the sheer mention of "Perfect Waifu" makes me cringe. Dang I hate that one.
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Old 2012-10-23, 18:29   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
What about it's sort of Canadian equivalent La Femme Nikita which I always used to see advertised on TV as a kid?
I can't speak for the TV show, but the 1990 Film by Luc Besson is one of the best "action girl" movies ever.

Some truly epic shit, only outdone by its predecessor the equally incredible Leon aka The Professional .

Both examples of how an action movie need not be ultra-realistic to be good.

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Originally Posted by NorthernFallout View Post
The Wire comes to mind as an example where it's done well, for instance
Few TV shows depict homosexuality as honestly as The Wire. Kima Greggs is one of the coolest lesbians ever and Omar Little is pretty much the baddest character ever, gay or straight.
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Old 2012-10-23, 22:32   Link #98
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I think men and women should be free to sexualize their fictional representations of each other in fiction

Characters are not people. They are objects or concepts. Thus the author is free to do whatever they want with them. The alternative is censorship or thought crime. Though by the same logic, the audience is entitled to voice their opinion about it as long as the author is not bullied or pressured to modify his work.

Other than that..

I don't ask much. I only ask for a female character to pass the Bechdel test.

http://bechdeltest.com/

What this means is I ask for female characters to have other aspirations in life besides a man.

It really bothers me when there is a token childhood or love interest character in a particular movie doesn't have any other friends besides the token male lead.

It really bothers me when a girl's plan for college is to follow wherever A-kun is going to enroll in.

It really bothers me when a girl's plan in life is "I want to be with A-kun forever and I need nothing else".

It really bothers me when a girl's dream is to to help A-kun's dreams come true.

God damnit.. even married wives have a life outside of her husband. At least the ones in civilized countries.

To illustrate my point, I am going to use the heroines of Accel World and SAO as a comparison

Snow Black: Deeply in love with Haruyuki. Some say, unrealistically. However, she has her own ambition and goals which are UNRELATED to Haruyuki. Her original intent was actually to use Haruyuki to fulfill her own goals. She has since became more personal with him, but at her core she's still ambitious and unwavering.

Asuna: One of the best players in SAO. She falls in love with Kirito and... that's just it. I really don't see anything other facet of her other than "I want to be Kirito's wife". The treatment of her in the show doesn't help either. She is a prize for Kirito. She is something that he tried to win from Knights of Blood in a duel (why did she even consent to this? why didn't she fight for her own release?). And how she is something for him to win in ALO. It's hard to see her as a character instead of a trophy.

So in regards to the original poster's examples:

Akemi Homura (Madoka Magica)
If she did all of that for a boy, I would personally be annoyed.
But the context of the show makes me overlook a lot of things.
There's more than just a "doing it for a girl" theme. There's also a moral aesop and a word of caution against wishes.

Asuna Yuuki (Sword Art Online
As stated

Sakura Ichiko (Binbogami-ga)
Delicious mix of selfish and nice
But she's a comedy character. Why would I take anyone from a comedy seriously?

Yui Takamura (Total Eclipse)
She's comes of as a token love interest.. yes.
But I can see that there's an other side to her besides "Yuuya... Yuuya!" x 99

Kuroyukihime (Accel World)
I would join her legion

Morgianna (Magi)
I already read the manga but.. she's a solid character.
She's really starting from zero and is trying to be a human being for the first time.

Hakaze Kusaribe (Zetsuen No Tempest)
Right now I don't consider her a character. I consider her the exposition narrator.

Layla Malkal (Code Geass Akito The Rebellion)
Don't know who that is.

..
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Old 2012-10-23, 23:56   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
Snow Black: Deeply in love with Haruyuki. Some say, unrealistically. However, she has her own ambition and goals which are UNRELATED to Haruyuki. Her original intent was actually to use Haruyuki to fulfill her own goals. She has since became more personal with him, but at her core she's still ambitious and unwavering.

Asuna: One of the best players in SAO. She falls in love with Kirito and... that's just it. I really don't see anything other facet of her other than "I want to be Kirito's wife". The treatment of her in the show doesn't help either. She is a prize for Kirito. She is something that he tried to win from Knights of Blood in a duel (why did she even consent to this? why didn't she fight for her own release?). And how she is something for him to win in ALO. It's hard to see her as a character instead of a trophy.
Spoiler for Comparison of Kuroyukihime and Asuna (animated content only):
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Old 2012-10-24, 01:43   Link #100
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Spoiler for Sword Art Online comparison:
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-10-24 at 02:55. Reason: Using spoiler tags for comparison per Spoiler Policy
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