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Old 2012-11-01, 15:50   Link #101
Kirarakim
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Genre has nothing to do with target demographic.

Vexx is right Kon is Seinen. It happened to become popular with teenage girls but its target audience was always adult male.

It's the same as many shounen series have a high percentage of female readership like the recent Kuroko no Basket.
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Old 2012-11-01, 16:42   Link #102
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"seinen" tells you that the publishing house self-identifies as "seinen" - that it has a primary demographic of young adult males. Using "seinen" to define story content is an incorrect use of the term. All I have to do is list some "seinen", "shounen" or "shoujo" series to show just how useless the terms are for labeling content

K-On! was and is a seinen publication purely because the publisher self-identifies as such. The anime series is adapted from that --- because the franchise treated women more like "people", it jumped out of the rut and became a cross-over hit with a wide spectrum demographic.
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Old 2012-11-01, 18:29   Link #103
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Nor is K-On! unique in this respect. Hidamari Sketch also appeared in a seinen magazine, and Gakuen Utopia Manabi Straight! appeared in a shounen publication. All of these are slice-of-life stories about cute high school girls.
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Old 2012-11-01, 18:43   Link #104
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What of Sailor Moon?
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Old 2012-11-01, 19:09   Link #105
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Sailor Moon is definitely Shoujo.
You can clearly see that if you look at the manga. The drawing style would probably turn off most of the males.

The anime really mitigated that factor, but generally that happens to most anime adaptions.
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Old 2012-11-01, 19:21   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
I feel that:
If a lead of girls = boy's show
If a lead of boys = girl's show

But somehow, K-ON is now popular amongst girls....
Okay, let's follow that logic. Is "Chihayafuru" a show for boys, or is it for girls? Who would watch something like "Clannad"? Relation to protagonists can occur in multiple ways, so if that's your current viewpoint I'd recommend expanding a little.

For instance, Okazaki Tomoya is a male lead, right? So since many of the girls end up fawning over him or at least having an interest, would it be a girl's series? Or do we instead follow along in his footsteps, seeing his decisions and lifestyle, making it a boy's series?

That'd be the conundrum reason why I don't think someone should view a series as a "girl's show". And let's not even bring subjectivity into the matter, as that adds a whole new level to it, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
Genre and demographics are very relative terms so there shouldn't even be debates about this (I find it relatively annoying when someone points out "oh this is seinen or shonen or blablabla) and I'm pretty sure, at least marketing wise, K-ON's target demographic internationally is extremely different than Japan.
They are quite relative, aren't they? However, knowing a target demographic is important in my opinion, as it helps one to understand who was targeted and if it worked or not. If it did, why did it work? That all plays into understanding what makes a series universally liked and what appeals to a certain type of viewer.

It'd be like just watching Dr. Who for the visuals instead of realizing that it's a sci-fi series targeting sci-fi lovers.

I do agree however that targeting differs across the globe, since personal likes vastly varies over here compared to Japan and other countries. If we're to use your example, K-ON could be much more split in the male/female ratio of viewers over there and here, so the targeting could change a little. But hey, overall they need to have had a business plan.

P.S. Debates are never a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Genre has nothing to do with target demographic.

Vexx is right Kon is Seinen. It happened to become popular with teenage girls but its target audience was always adult male.

It's the same as many shounen series have a high percentage of female readership like the recent Kuroko no Basket.
It does actually, in my opinion. I suppose it's all in how you look at things, but I think the two can be synonymous.

I'd like to make a point that I think "target" demographic and "overall" demographic are two very different things. For instance, let's take "Fruits Basket", one of the best-selling shojo manga series of all time. The target is shojo, but the genres branch out into drama, fantasy, and even romance. So let's completely separate demographic and genre. Since it's shojo, would you hate it entirely, just like that? Within the target demographic, you also use genre to appeal to certain people in that area (and even pick up viewers you never thought you'd get!). I personally wasn't much of a fan of Fruits Basket, but I can't just claim it's because it's a shojo series. There's other genres that can come into play in conjunction with that which builds my personal opinion on it.

Just as one more example, Shugo Chara is another shojo series with actually quite similar aspects. Since I can conjoin demographics and genres, I can determine which parts actually make me like Shugo Chara.

At the very lowest point though, it's all subjective, right? Hell, you could be crazy like me and even love the 2002 Kanon series and the entirety of Haruhi's S2. Maybe you HATE Lucky Star. Perhaps you can't decide if you truly love Shakugan no Shana while something tugs at you in the other direction. If you like something, then hey, screw the target demographics altogether. So what if it was made for girls, right?
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Old 2012-11-01, 19:23   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
Why is half-naked men touching each other shamelessly considered 'for men'? At any rate I'd say a male who won't watch something because it has too much girls is either gay or asexual.

Tell that to him. That he is gay for watching shows only about men, and that he should care more for shows about girls if he wants to preserve his "macho" image.
This post of yours is so very offensive to people who are actually asexual or homosexual. You really think sexual inclination has anything to do with people being dumb and too self-righteous? Do you really think a gay but smart man wouldn't watch Madoka and enjoy it for what it is just because it has only girls in it? And asexuality has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual attractions based on gender. And liking macho things has nothing to do with homosexuality whatsoever. At least the guy OP talked to keeps it to himself - it's his choice what he watches and not, after all - but you are wrong on so many levels it's disgusting.

OT, you can't help what you can't help. Let him be. It's his choice what he watches. You recommended the anime to him very strongly and going beyond that is uncalled for and would be intruding on his space. Heck, I would consider making a public thread to disclose a private chat a very serious libel attempt but I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you had no malicious intents. It's still a really dumb thing to do and I would hope you don't do these things in the future. You could have made a thread and just asked about general perceptions etc. but posting logs of a private chat is going too far. If you want to look down on him for being close-minded, keep it to yourself.
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Old 2012-11-01, 19:35   Link #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papermario13689 View Post
It does actually, in my opinion. I suppose it's all in how you look at things, but I think the two can be synonymous.
I am not really sure I understand your point. Someone doesn't have to be a young girl to enjoy a shoujo story. Just like someone doesn't have to be a boy to enjoy shounen.

The audience that enjoys a series can be very different from its target demographic.

Now if you are saying sometimes stories target fans of a particular genre, well I am not denying that but that is very different from target demographic.

And I don't understand what it means to like shoujo or shounen, seinen, or josei. Don't get me wrong I am sure I said this myself but it's really a meaningless statement because these things are so broad & don't really tell you anything about what you like.

Now saying you like a particular genre that is saying something. That is why comparing target demo to genre doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 2012-11-01, 20:29   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
OT, you can't help what you can't help. Let him be. It's his choice what he watches. You recommended the anime to him very strongly and going beyond that is uncalled for and would be intruding on his space. Heck, I would consider making a public thread to disclose a private chat a very serious libel attempt but I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you had no malicious intents. It's still a really dumb thing to do and I would hope you don't do these things in the future. You could have made a thread and just asked about general perceptions etc. but posting logs of a private chat is going too far. If you want to look down on him for being close-minded, keep it to yourself.
Forsaken_Infinity, the conversation I posted wasn't private (it was a 4p game that was open to observers) and therefore doesn't constitute libel in the USA. Moreover, what I posted was merely my recollection of the conversation, not a verbatim transcript. But if you did want to read the transcript, you could find it on the Wesnoth website where replays of all games on the official server are stored, which is another reason this conversation wasn't private (I do not remember the title of the game, it was 4p on Isar's Cross same day as the start if the thread).

I'm a Journalism student so I'm well informed about both the intent and the ramifications of libel laws. So I would never violate them, especially on a forum as visible as Animesuki. I could be offended that you called my actions dumb and presumed that I didn't understand libel, slander and privacy laws in the USA, but I'll just assume that you didn't know better.
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Old 2012-11-01, 20:52   Link #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I am not really sure I understand your point. Someone doesn't have to be a young girl to enjoy a shoujo story. Just like someone doesn't have to be a boy to enjoy shounen.

The audience that enjoys a series can be very different from its target demographic.

Now if you are saying sometimes stories target fans of a particular genre, well I am not denying that but that is very different from target demographic.

And I don't understand what it means to like shoujo or shounen, seinen, or josei. Don't get me wrong I am sure I said this myself but it's really a meaningless statement because these things are so broad & don't really tell you anything about what you like.

Now saying you like a particular genre that is saying something. That is why comparing target demo to genre doesn't make sense to me.
Fair enough. You'll have to excuse me as it's not something I can so easily describe my viewpoint of, but I'll try.

Within a genre they can branch, mix and even create somewhat of an odd paradox-in-theory (like a realistic sci-fi or a paranormal moment in a non-fiction). However, when targeting a demographic they know exactly what people like; it's a study and a profession for a reason. The reason I say target demographics and genre can be conjoined is because when they do the targeting, certain genres just plain work better overall than others. A person may generally hate romance for instance, but because of how the shojo series brings other genres and elements into play, it could make them change their opinion for that specific series.

Ergo, I don't see your opinion as wrong, and overall I agree with it. I just think it's not entirely right to throw it out and say that they're completely incomparable. Bottom line: people like specific genres, and not because of the target demographics, I agree. However, they can still be compared because when they do the targeting they look at what appeals to the most people altogether, so the formula is fudged a little bit.
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Old 2012-11-01, 21:27   Link #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papermario13689 View Post
Okay, let's follow that logic. Is "Chihayafuru" a show for boys, or is it for girls? Who would watch something like "Clannad"? Relation to protagonists can occur in multiple ways, so if that's your current viewpoint I'd recommend expanding a little.

For instance, Okazaki Tomoya is a male lead, right? So since many of the girls end up fawning over him or at least having an interest, would it be a girl's series? Or do we instead follow along in his footsteps, seeing his decisions and lifestyle, making it a boy's series?

That'd be the conundrum reason why I don't think someone should view a series as a "girl's show". And let's not even bring subjectivity into the matter, as that adds a whole new level to it, right?
Yeah I guess (actually I'm thinking of watching Chihayafuru... As for CLANNAD, I mostly thought it a guy's show then I looked at the genre and it says drama.... Anddddd I ran in circles cause I don't know what it would be.
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Old 2012-11-01, 21:31   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Yeah I guess (actually I'm thinking of watching Chihayafuru... As for CLANNAD, I mostly thought it a guy's show then I looked at the genre and it says drama.... Anddddd I ran in circles cause I don't know what it would be.
Chihayafuru is excellent, I would recommend it, but it's not for everyone. CLANNAD is bordering shonen/seinen I'd say.
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Old 2012-11-01, 21:33   Link #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papermario13689 View Post
Chihayafuru is excellent, I would recommend it, but it's not for everyone. CLANNAD is bordering shonen/seinen I'd say.
Yeah it's really hard to recommend a show by the designs. Can't blame the guy for saying: "but it's a girl's show"
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Old 2012-11-02, 05:29   Link #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
As for CLANNAD, I mostly thought it a guy's show then I looked at the genre and it says drama.... Anddddd I ran in circles cause I don't know what it would be.
Why would it being a drama not mean it's a guy show?
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Old 2012-11-02, 06:37   Link #115
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I guess you can see a certain correlation between genre and targeted demographic, you don't see as many action shoujo as you see action shounen, but you shouldn't consider that an absolute.
Besides there are some genres that are pretty much equally common on either side, romance and comedy for example.

Kirarakim is still right in the sense that you cannot determine the targeted demographic of a work just by knowing the genre.
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Old 2012-11-02, 18:18   Link #116
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I always believe Kuroshitsuji were intended to read and seen by teenage girls and young women despite having big "shounen" label on it. It legitimately got that label because it were published in a shounen magazine.
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Old 2012-11-04, 12:45   Link #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Why would it being a drama not mean it's a guy show?
Well I don't really think this is true, when most people here the words "drama" or "romance" they generally seem to think that it is a series targeted toward a female audience because females will be the people to most enjoy this genre.

If I had to take a guess, this idea probably comes from daytime soap-operas being mainly female target audiences and since drama and romance are pretty much the key component of most of them, people generalize that all drama's and romance's are for females.
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Old 2012-11-04, 13:37   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Soverence View Post
Well I don't really think this is true, when most people here the words "drama" or "romance" they generally seem to think that it is a series targeted toward a female audience because females will be the people to most enjoy this genre.

If I had to take a guess, this idea probably comes from daytime soap-operas being mainly female target audiences and since drama and romance are pretty much the key component of most of them, people generalize that all drama's and romance's are for females.
Except that all the nightly prime time series are dramas. The law, police, crime, etc. shows.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:01   Link #119
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Except that all the nightly prime time series are dramas. The law, police, crime, etc. shows.
It sounded like he was talking about "drama" in the overwrought adolescent sense rather than its traditional literary meaning.

To me dramatic anime means shows like Monster, Twelve Kingdoms, and Noein, or for more contemporary examples, Madoka and the currently-airing Shin Sekai Yori and Psycho-Pass.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:15   Link #120
Soverence
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Except that all the nightly prime time series are dramas. The law, police, crime, etc. shows.
I am aware of that, I am a big fan of NCIS and Law and Order myself, but from my personal experience when I talk to male friends about those kind of shows they usually refer to them as crime shows or mystery shows, almost never do I hear the word "drama" when describing them other then in the big flashy commercials saying that they are tv's #1 new drama.

What something actually is and how it is perceived are two different things, even thought at the core those shows are actually drama's, people don't seem to consider them as such generally. Most shows usually have a adjective describing the type of drama such as "action drama" or comedy and so forth and usually people identify the adjective more then the genre itself.

Honestly, i think its all because of certain stereotypes about certain genre's, It took my forever to actually watch Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica because of all the negative ideas I had about magic girl animes and once I watched the show it became one of my favorite animes.
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