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Old 2012-10-10, 00:33   Link #1
james0246
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[Manga] Naruto Chapter 605 Discussion Thread

Welcome to the weekly manga chapter discussion thread. This thread is created early to discuss spoilers and speculation about the upcoming chapter as well as discussion of said chapter once it has been released.

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Confirmed spoilers have been released:

Quote:
-Rin is dead. Long live Rin.

-Chapter title Hell.

-Kakashi and Obito both gain MS upon Rin's death.

-Obito, upon seeing Rin's death, gives himself over completely to the Zetsu body, which proceeds to use Obito's new powers to massacre all the Mist-nin. During the battle, Obito eventually takes over and begins to use Zetsu's Mokuton powers to massacre his foes.

-Chapter ends with Obito using a large scale Mokuton jutsu, creating a giant tree (that reaches to the moon) that devours all his enemies.

-It's unclear what happened to Kakashi.
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Old 2012-10-10, 00:38   Link #2
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Boring chapter IMO. The entire massacre of the Mist-Nin could have been done in a single page. I wonder if Obitos actually dead...
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Old 2012-10-10, 00:41   Link #3
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i assume since they both unlocked at the same time, since kakashi passed out right after, he suppressed the memory, like how sasuke unlocked his sharigan the night his brother massacred the clan but he passed out and didnt unlock it again till he was older.

least that would make sense to me, im sure others are....nope PLOT HOLE!....but having rin be a double agent is pretty cool. gives the reason why kakashi killed her justified instead of silly....oops the mist was blinding.
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Old 2012-10-10, 00:53   Link #4
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but having rin be a double agent is pretty cool
Sadly this, and the fact that Kakashi and Obito have a pseudo shared vision, is going to make Obito conversion almost immediate (once we get to the actual fight). He'll beat on Kakashi for a chapter or two (denying that Rin didn't deserve her falcon punch through the heart), until finally Kakashi will 'show' him the truth, and he'll either kill himself or be redeemed...

Whatever the case, this flashback has gone on too long. (I find it quite funny how the chapters featuring the "why" of Tobi have significantly less responses than the chapters featuring the "Who"; just goes to show, once we knew who Tobi was, he almost instantly became uninteresting (and he's only gotten worse.))

...I am tired...good morning.
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Old 2012-10-10, 01:02   Link #5
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Rin is not a double agent, she was under Madara's genjutsu.

Obito knows he was chosen for his abilites (hence not finding Madara's randomly), knows the Mist did something to Rin's body (and he should know she has no special abilities) and we know he later figured out the relationship between Yagura's master and Kisame (and Yagura was already controlled when Zazbuza was a child, hence before what's happening now)

Well, the timeline is now fixed. (as long as Rin is being brainwashed by the same guy than Yagura) But now, all that Mist's plotline with Kisame and Yagura's manipulation was just for the sake of brainwashing Obito, who is not thrash anymore, but the most talented Uchiha of his generation (since specifically handpicken by Madara) who is also able to harness Shodai Hokage's power intuitively. That's just errr ... boring ? wasting a perfectly valid plotline for nothing ?

As for Kakashi and his MS, it's the degree zero of storytelling. (lol he had it from the beginning)

At least, we know Obito's motivations now. He knows something was up, but he refuses to acknowledge them, so he 'll willingly collaborate with the one who set them in motion rather than the ones who were screwed by them. Because it's easier than facing the facts.
Good news is that it's almost over. Kakashi will say his sharingan saw the genjutsu. Madara will lol, Obito will attack him and he'll die, the story will move on, and Rin won't get a single line. There is only two chapters left to complete the volume and this sub arc.

Last edited by Rahan; 2012-10-10 at 01:38.
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Old 2012-10-10, 01:33   Link #6
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I also figured that Rin's a spy from the looks of things, it's the most common reason for an enemy to want to retrieve her body.

Anyway, now we know how they both got MS...but damn, that was so little information in a whole chapter =/ Good morning btw
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Old 2012-10-10, 01:36   Link #7
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.....
What is this Shit? Is this even Naruto anymore?
Back in old country, we had manga that had plot line, and stayed consistent to it.
This shit, it's not even amusing.
I mean, it closes a door, but opens a couple other cans of worms.
Why?
What is this Shit?
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Old 2012-10-10, 01:47   Link #8
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Dayum...takes Sasuke a few days to learn his MS and takes Kakashi years to learn how to use his lalala shame.
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Old 2012-10-10, 02:02   Link #9
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Took Obito one tragic event to activate Mangekyō ? Sure is some BS
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Old 2012-10-10, 02:20   Link #10
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It never ceases to amaze me how fast the people on this forum make simplified conclusions, as if they figured it all out. And then another 10 chapters go by and they were 100% wrong, just like they were 100% wrong about Obito not being Tobi, and when they are 100% wrong, they act like it's because Kishimoto isn't as good as they are at figuring out a plot.

You guys are probably 100% off again.

I'm going to guess:
Obito blames Kakashi because, despite the Blood Mist being the ones that used Rin, Kakashi allowed those events to take place. Hence, "You let Rin die" is not a false statement.
I doubt Rin would betray the Hidden Leaf. Chances are there was foul play involved.
Kakashi was surrounded by quite a few Blood Mist shinobi. Chances are, being outnumbered and Rin being the target and her capture most likely leading to some tragedy for the Hidden Leaf, Kakashi had no choice but to kill her himself.
She might have even asked him to do it.
It's not necessarily a plot hole that Kakashi remembers none of this. Anyone that thinks it's easy to retain a good memory of you killing one of your best friends needs serious therapy or a wake up call. He passed out and likely had no idea what was going on.

Why Kakashi's explanation means nothing to Obito:
This isn't a plot hole. It simply doesn't matter because Rin is dead. Regardless of the circumstance, you let Rin fall into a trap which led to her death by your hands.

If you're my best friend, and my girlfriend gets bit by a vampire and you murder her with a wooden stake to save the world, I'm still going to be pissed at you for letting her get bit by a vampire.

Obito collaborating with Madara has nothing to do with him 'not facing the facts'. The facts are, the world is cruel and that cruel world led to Rin's death. Madara told Obito he dreams of a world without pain or suffering. This has more to do with Obito realizing there isn't 'blame' to be made for one person or one group of people but for the world of shinobi at all. If you think about it, it makes sense. What led to the Sand Village having a peaceful treaty with Leaf Village? The battle between Sand Village and Leaf Village which resulted in 3rd Hokage's death. What led to the Shinobi Alliance with even the Samurai coming out of neutrality to join the Shinobi Villages? Sasuke and Tobi's attack on the Kage Summit which ultimately resorted to Danzo's death. Obito is probably tired of a world where small victories are obtained at the loss of life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanQ View Post
Dayum...takes Sasuke a few days to learn his MS and takes Kakashi years to learn how to use his lalala shame.
He never knew he had it and never really pushed himself until after Itachi one-shot KO'd him. The idea is Kakashi had it the whole time but never 'unlocked it'.

I think a few things are starting to make sense:

Because Kakashi only has 'one' Sharingan and isn't an Uchiha, the vision in his right eye doesn't deteriorate and acts as a supplement to the loss of vision in his left eye. The reason for Kakashi having a 'different' Kamui is that left and right eyes have different MS effects, a'la Tsukuyomi vs. Amaterasu. Left eye = aimed, more needle pin type of Kamui. Right eye = self Kamui, larger radius.

But I have something mind-blowing for you guys:

Obito knows he would be infinitely more powerful if he took Kakashi's eye and discovered his dual-MS ability. He also knows he's been more powerful than Kakashi and had the capability to dispatch Kakashi since he left Madara's lair.

Why didn't he take the eye? Why is he so timid about the real Madara making an appearance on the battlefield?

I'm going to bet Obito isn't 100% on Madara's side.

But Sasuke will be.

Last edited by james0246; 2012-10-10 at 08:08. Reason: double post...
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Old 2012-10-10, 02:28   Link #11
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i assume since they both unlocked at the same time, since kakashi passed out right after, he suppressed the memory, like how sasuke unlocked his sharigan the night his brother massacred the clan but he passed out and didnt unlock it again till he was older.

least that would make sense to me, im sure others are....nope PLOT HOLE!....but having rin be a double agent is pretty cool. gives the reason why kakashi killed her justified instead of silly....oops the mist was blinding.
is that what happened? i thought sasuke got his MS when itachi died? he learned how to use his MS in just a matter of days. he didn't block out the memory or closed his MS and unlocked it years later. sasuke simply didn't possess MS until he supposedly killed itachi and suffered the guilt that went with it. at least that's how i understood it. is there such a thing as locking away your MS? i doubt it. unless of course kishi says so, he is God in this manga so whatever he says is the law.

assuming that your theory is possible, then what could have "unlocked" kakashi's MS sharingan? being placed under itachi's tsukuyomi? i still think it's a little farfetched though. once you get MS you have it. you either learn how to use it or you don't. and if that's the case, then it took a pretty long time for kakashi to learn it, which is a little out of character considering he learned how to use sharingan, even though he doesn't have a drop of uchiha blood in him, in just a matter of seconds.
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Last edited by ronin myael; 2012-10-10 at 02:40.
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Old 2012-10-10, 02:37   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranchan13 View Post
.....
What is this Shit? Is this even Naruto anymore?
Still Naruto.. but crappy Naruto since Kishimoto is dragging crap on for maximum $$$ or </trollololol> The Rock Lee side story is much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
Rin is not a double agent, she was under Madara's genjutsu.

As for Kakashi and his MS, it's the degree zero of storytelling. (lol he had it from the beginning)

Good news is that it's almost over. Kakashi will say his sharingan saw the genjutsu. Madara will lol, Obito will attack him and he'll die, the story will move on, and Rin won't get a single line. There is only two chapters left to complete the volume and this sub arc.
I don't know if it's conclusive Rin was manipulated or was a double agent.. The chapter was dearth of details, just meaningless action we can't make concrete conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Whatever the case, this flashback has gone on too long.
I think the manga gets boring when it focuses too much on Uchiha.. because it's been dragged on too long and every knows that all Madara is a sore loser who's recruited his off spring on to complete his plan which has failed a few times already.

Agreed. It's gone on too long.. that's for sure.
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Old 2012-10-10, 02:57   Link #13
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Originally Posted by Essenar View Post
Kakashi was surrounded by quite a few Blood Mist shinobi. Chances are, being outnumbered and Rin being the target and her capture most likely leading to some tragedy for the Hidden Leaf, Kakashi had no choice but to kill her himself.
She might have even asked him to do it.

Yeah, let's drop the Bloody Mist plotline ( Bloody Mist is named in this chapter. hence Yagura was already manipulated and Obito is not the long haired masked man unless Kishi completely lost it) and say this plotline has nothing to do with manipulation (although we now know for sure Obito was handpicked by Madara) and just give Rin magical power that the Mist wanted. And Kakashi killed her willingly just to not lose that bloodline. It's just a coincidence those ninjas were ordered by the long haired masked man. Maybe not directly like Yagura or Kisame, but at least indirectly.

What about ... no ?

Quote:
It's not necessarily a plot hole that Kakashi remembers none of this. Anyone that thinks it's easy to retain a good memory of you killing one of your best friends needs serious therapy or a wake up call. He passed out and likely had no idea what was going on.
I didn't say it was a plot hole, I said it was the degree zero of storytelling.

Quote:
Obito collaborating with Madara has nothing to do with him 'not facing the facts'. The facts are, the world is cruel and that cruel world led to Rin's death. Madara told Obito he dreams of a world without pain or suffering. This has more to do with Obito realizing there isn't 'blame' to be made for one person or one group of people but for the world of shinobi at all.
define : "I will never acknowledge this".

Quote:
If you think about it, it makes sense. What led to the Sand Village having a peaceful treaty with Leaf Village? The battle between Sand Village and Leaf Village which resulted in 3rd Hokage's death. What led to the Shinobi Alliance with even the Samurai coming out of neutrality to join the Shinobi Villages? Sasuke and Tobi's attack on the Kage Summit which ultimately resorted to Danzo's death. Obito is probably tired of a world where small victories are obtained at the loss of life.
So you are saying Obito is trying to remove all wars because wars lead to peace ?
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Old 2012-10-10, 03:42   Link #14
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Quote:
It's not necessarily a plot hole that Kakashi remembers none of this. Anyone that thinks it's easy to retain a good memory of you killing one of your best friends needs serious therapy or a wake up call. He passed out and likely had no idea what was going on.
He can't remember THAT but he remembered all about his father's past, which scarred him for the rest of his life and dictated his way of the ninja? Hmm...

Quote:
I'm going to guess:
Obito blames Kakashi because, despite the Blood Mist being the ones that used Rin, Kakashi allowed those events to take place. Hence, "You let Rin die" is not a false statement.
I doubt Rin would betray the Hidden Leaf. Chances are there was foul play involved.
Kakashi was surrounded by quite a few Blood Mist shinobi. Chances are, being outnumbered and Rin being the target and her capture most likely leading to some tragedy for the Hidden Leaf, Kakashi had no choice but to kill her himself.
She might have even asked him to do it.
The "letting someone die" thing is not the thing to say when Kakashi was directly involved in Rin's death. Saying Minato let Rin die would make more sense, since he was in charge of the team.

About Rin's role in all of this: she still has no last name, which is actually important; she could be, like Kushina, a foreigner admitted to Konoha for special reasons. If Kakashi was somehow tricked into killing Rin, the enemy ninja wouldn't need to retrieve her body.

Finally there's the matter of Kakashi and Rin being a 2-man team, while all core teams have at least 3 members. What happened to Obito's replacement?
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Old 2012-10-10, 04:19   Link #15
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
is that what happened? i thought sasuke got his MS when itachi died? he learned how to use his MS in just a matter of days. he didn't block out the memory or closed his MS and unlocked it years later. sasuke simply didn't possess MS until he supposedly killed itachi and suffered the guilt that went with it.
its my understanding that it was after learning the truth of itachi that sasuke got MS. he didnt have it right after killing itachi because at that time he thought he was killing a villain, not his "closest friend"

Quote:
at least that's how i understood it. is there such a thing as locking away your MS? i doubt it. unless of course kishi says so, he is God in this manga so whatever he says is the law.
as someone said earlier, sasuke got the sharingan and then forgot about it. basically these eyes (sharingan and rinnegan) act on their own in cases of particularly strong eyes when the user is in dire straits. it is training that allows them to use their eyes at will.

I'd still like to go back and see when kakashi learned he had MS and how to use it for the first time during the timeskip. and we definitely need to see how rin became a spy. or at least forced into being one. that was a surprise to me, I was sure it was a clone

so we learned that madara DID choose obito then? obito didnt even seem to register that notion when spiral zetsu said it.
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Old 2012-10-10, 04:39   Link #16
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its my understanding that it was after learning the truth of itachi that sasuke got MS. he didnt have it right after killing itachi because at that time he thought he was killing a villain, not his "closest friend"
that too. it would have made more sense since itachi claimed that you can achieve MS when you kill the most important person to you and suffer the guilt from it. sasuke gaining MS when his family was massacred and locking it away is a bit farfetched for me.
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Old 2012-10-10, 05:10   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post

About Rin's role in all of this: she still has no last name, which is actually important; she could be, like Kushina, a foreigner admitted to Konoha for special reasons. If Kakashi was somehow tricked into killing Rin, the enemy ninja wouldn't need to retrieve her body.

Finally there's the matter of Kakashi and Rin being a 2-man team, while all core teams have at least 3 members. What happened to Obito's replacement?
For Rin's role:
She probably had something with or in her that made her valuable, but at the same time threatening to Konoha. Being surrounded by that many ninjas, Kakashi didn't have a choice but to kill Rin, who probably asked him to do so, but at the same time, just as said above, Rin could have been a spy and she betrayed Konoha which gave Kakashi no other choice but to kill her.

For Obito's replacement:
If Rin was a spy, she could have tried to escape, but Kakashi followed her leaving them alone, which lead to the events right now. So there was probably a replacement but he/she was unimportant so Kishi left him/her out.
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Old 2012-10-10, 06:18   Link #18
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Originally Posted by Essenar View Post
Kakashi was surrounded by quite a few Blood Mist shinobi. Chances are, being outnumbered and Rin being the target and her capture most likely leading to some tragedy for the Hidden Leaf, Kakashi had no choice but to kill her himself. She might have even asked him to do it.
You mean Kakashi back then was like Kiritsugu Emiya from Fate/Zero: sacrifice the few to save the many. As for Rin might even ask Kakashi to kill her, I don't know, but she did look surprised when Kakashi striked into her heart with his Chidori.
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Old 2012-10-10, 07:30   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
is that what happened? i thought sasuke got his MS when itachi died? he learned how to use his MS in just a matter of days. he didn't block out the memory or closed his MS and unlocked it years later. sasuke simply didn't possess MS until he supposedly killed itachi and suffered the guilt that went with it. at least that's how i understood it. is there such a thing as locking away your MS? i doubt it. unless of course kishi says so, he is God in this manga so whatever he says is the law.

assuming that your theory is possible, then what could have "unlocked" kakashi's MS sharingan? being placed under itachi's tsukuyomi? i still think it's a little farfetched though. once you get MS you have it. you either learn how to use it or you don't. and if that's the case, then it took a pretty long time for kakashi to learn it, which is a little out of character considering he learned how to use sharingan, even though he doesn't have a drop of uchiha blood in him, in just a matter of seconds.
I should have been more clear, when itachi killed his clan, and MS'd sasuke, he left, but sasuke got up and went to attack him and at that time he had his sharigan unlocked while he threw the kunai at itachi. But he then passed out right after. He mentioned years later when he was talking to tobi that he blocked that memory out because he couldnt believe or wouldnt believe that his brother was crying after the murder of their parents.

thats why I was maybe thats what happened with kakashi, the strain on him from unlocking it pretty much made him pass out instantly so maybe because he passed out he never knew he could do MS. Just like sasuke never turned on his sharigan, even though he unlocked it many years before.
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Old 2012-10-10, 07:57   Link #20
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That was pretty cool, especially that last jutsu...though isn't that a bit too much blood?

I can't be the only one who laughed at the whole 'we have to retrieve her body' line.
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