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Old 2012-10-18, 18:59   Link #101
Eragon
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Old 2012-10-18, 19:38   Link #102
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lol rin is not King Aizen. She will never say that. But she is dead, she wont be brought back to life, obito wants her back, but in the dream world so she will love him only.

after all if she did come back to life, she will probably understand by kakashi killed a traitor(if she is a traitor)
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Old 2012-10-18, 21:59   Link #103
Lunarskylar
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Unless rin was created by madara's yin jutsu the way b. Zetsu was, and was sent to konoha to find the perfect uchiha whose young brain would snap hard enough for madara to remold into his successor.


Then she arranged to get kidnapped CONVENIENTLY above madara's secret base, so that obito would sacrifice himself so madara could send zetsu to bring him so he could be implanted with senju (which carries more of the crazy gene). THEN le piece de resistance, rin is killed by the boy's rival, bffm and bam. Mini madara

It's the naruto version of sugar, spice and everything nice
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Old 2012-10-18, 22:05   Link #104
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yes yes i should know by now that phoenix down doesn't work in cut scenes.... but my illusions will not be crushed! There is no Kamijou Touma in this world and Rin is Inbound!
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Old 2012-10-18, 22:41   Link #105
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Realizing all your dreams are pointless, and that the one character you might trust (Madara) actually masterminded everything, would be just as tragic.
True, but I kind of prefer the idea that he’s so far gone that he won’t listen to truth. Kishimoto doesn’t really go this route often. (Sasuke being the only exception, right? Please correct me if I’m wrong.) If Obito were able to learn the truth and accept it, I think it would only lead up to something of this caliber…
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Especially if, the second he realizes his feelings meant nothing and he was just a pawn, Madara or Sasuke smush him like the boulder should have done 17 years ago.
And to me, this just makes him more of a sympathetic character, who had a tragic flaw. That doesn’t work for me, after we know why he’s been doing all of this. It’s kind of like (and I know a lot of people have been doing this, but) Star Wars.

In the original trilogy we knew Darth Vader had done terrible things in the past but there was possible good and he got his moment; it took his life but he was able to redeem himself. Then we got the prequels and you realize the only reason why he’s been doing all of these horrible things in the future (for the most part) is because the wife he wasn’t supposed to have died, and he was manipulated like play dough. It took away the mystic and overwhelming power of Darth Vader from the original movies and reduced him to a whining teenager.

This to me is what has happened to Obito/Tobi and that’s one reason why I don’t want him to have the Vader treatment. We already have the backstory and know his reason is overall juvenile and na´ve (not to mention kind of crazy). I would much rather him succumb to his own madness than be given this tragic hero’s end just because it would boost the morale for Kakashi or Naruto. Maybe it could work, if handle right, but I have my fears that it would just seem like a complete 180.
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Last edited by Bassoonicmayhem; 2012-10-18 at 23:25.
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Old 2012-10-19, 04:00   Link #106
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
There's nothing more relevant than how Obito turned into the masked man
Um, I think the end of this chapter (as well as the last two) pretty much have that covered. His reasoning behind converting to Madara's philosophy was given(like it or not), and he even donned the mask. What more do you want?

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Sure this chapter gave a good deal of explanation but i think there should be another chapter to connect this to the attack on konoha and Obito's behavior there.
I think its pretty obvious that he went to Konoha to get the Kyuubi, which is necessary for that whole Moons-eye plan he's been mentioning so often.

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It's one thing to kill some random enemy ninja on the battlefield and something completely different to butcher ANBU of your own village, the 3rd hokage's wife[...]
Unleashing the kyuubi in the middle of the night in the village was already explained as it being the ideal time for such a plan as the seal was at its weakest because Kushina was in labor and (consequently)killing her, was simply corollary damage. Also, I doubt the anbu bodyguards would be willing to let Obito waltz in to see Kushina and steal the Kyuubi, so they had to die as well.

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[...]unleash the kyuubi in the middle of the night in a village where there were children sleeping.
This is a guy who is prepared to go through any horrible means in order to hypnotize the entire world – including but not limited to: killing a woman giving birth, threatening/killing an infant, destroying an entire village of innocent people... Do you honestly need an “explanation” on why he doesn't give a rat's ass about waking up some children in the middle of the night? We really don't need any panels wasted on this stuff stretching the story out, I really want to read about relevant things like what Orochimaru and Sasuke are up to and who they're off to see. This manga's chapters feel short enough as it is.

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And finally to kill your own clan, probably including your parents, since Obito also had to have Uchiha parents. Based on this chapter how could we explain that? "Because Rin died now i need to kill my own parents!"
Obito (with or without Madara) has built a large collection of sharingan eyes, and I think one effective way to do so is by killing Uchiha and taking their eyes. I remember him stating he needs to keep a stock of good eyes, perhaps this is for him to be able to cast forbidden Uchiha techniques, and still have extra eyes to use when they “lose their light.”

We don't know about his parents yet, so you're also complaining about a plot development(“because Rin died now I need to [...]”) you yourself created.
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Old 2012-10-19, 09:36   Link #107
james0246
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Obito (with or without Madara) has built a large collection of sharingan eyes, and I think one effective way to do so is by killing Uchiha and taking their eyes. I remember him stating he needs to keep a stock of good eyes, perhaps this is for him to be able to cast forbidden Uchiha techniques, and still have extra eyes to use when they ôlose their light.ö
Not really. The most effective way would be to capture all the Uchiha, extract their eyes, then breed the remains resulting in more Uchiha that could be raised until their Sharingans activate, then the cycle could continue...and I just went to a dark place...a dark place Kishimoto already went to when he had Hinata kidnapped at a young age...
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Old 2012-10-19, 10:46   Link #108
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Realizing all your dreams are pointless, and that the one character you might trust (Madara) actually masterminded everything, would be just as tragic. Especially if, the second he realizes his feelings meant nothing and he was just a pawn, Madara or Sasuke smush him like the boulder should have done 17 years ago.
Would they be pointless? Why would it matter that Madara was the cause of his living nightmare or that Rin was [insert something bad]?
Once Obito has decided that reality isn't up to standard and needs to be rewritten into his own intoxicated utopia the specifics of this reality are irrelevant since they are meant to be dreamed away. Madara being evil and Rin being a spy/clone/whatever is just more reason to do away with reality and replace it with lalaland.
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Old 2012-10-19, 11:25   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Would they be pointless? Why would it matter that Madara was the cause of his living nightmare or that Rin was [insert something bad]?
Save for the fact that the entire plan was created by Madara...so if you can't trust Madara, how can you trust the plan?
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Old 2012-10-19, 12:30   Link #110
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Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
hmmm, actually when writers focus on certain characters, give them backgrounds and build them up, they want their readers to somewhat empathize with them whether they are protagonists or antagonists. take chris nolan's the joker, nolan didn't really give the character enough history, we didn't even know what really made the joker tick. he was simply psychotic. he had no real motivations except for his desire to "see the world burn". he claimed to be an agent of chaos and we, the viewers, simply accepted that. since nolan didn't really give us much info about the character, we couldn't really relate or empathize with him. and yet we were still drawn to him because he was well-written and heath ledger's performance made the character all the more memorable. it didn't matter that he was sadistic, twisted and ruthless, we still felt that there was more to the character even though there really wasn't. we are not meant to understand that character because there is nothing to understand. obito, on the other hand, is a key figure in the story. we know his history (though i think we still don't know enough), his personality, his desires and frustrations. kishi took the effort to give us flashbacks to explain why obito turned out the way he did. why would he do that if he didn't want us to understand the character and sympathize with him? if we weren't meant to understand him, then as james said, he could simply be another hidan, a sick and screwed up character who reeks of destruction. no need for backgrounds, flashbacks or sob stories.
I said sympathize, not empathize. I am actually empathizing with this guy quite a bit.
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Old 2012-10-19, 14:22   Link #111
mystogan
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finally the black zetsu mystery is clear, so it was madara's will to guide him when he needed it
and Nagato is of senju lineage, but it was told earlier that he is a uzumaki, may be he is both,now it also explains why nagato possessed the rinnegan, first i thought it was just a natural occurrence, those were madara's eyes, so it was madara who awakened the rinnegan

i think that the the concept is very correct that when there is light there will be shadows,it's a causal relation that cannot be avoided, which i think would be a proper reason to create a fake dreamland where only good things happen,which does not happen in reality, and i think it's pretty clear that every doing is of obito, madara is the foundation of this fake dreamworld, but obito is still the constructor

now it might seem quite improper or pathetic for obito creating a fake world only because his loved one dies and try to recreate her there and putting the rest world into chaos, but surely there would have been many unknown ninjas or people who would wanted to do something because their loved ones died, try to change their fate or do something about it, but the biggest difference is that obito had sources like himself being an uchiha and having MADARA himself as a mentor,
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Old 2012-10-19, 14:44   Link #112
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Save for the fact that the entire plan was created by Madara...so if you can't trust Madara, how can you trust the plan?
Why not? Obito just has to remove Madara from the equation and become the Juubi Jinchuuriki himself which honestly does look like what he was doing before Kabuto brought Madara back into the field.
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Old 2012-10-19, 15:28   Link #113
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Why not? Obito just has to remove Madara from the equation and become the Juubi Jinchuuriki himself which honestly does look like what he was doing before Kabuto brought Madara back into the field.
I think Madara was going to be brought back to life, regardless. Obito bet on the possibility of using Sasuke, and that failed the moment Sasuke met Itachi. It then only became a question of when. And we still don't know the extent of control Madara has had on Obito.
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Old 2012-10-19, 16:12   Link #114
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Why not? Obito just has to remove Madara from the equation and become the Juubi Jinchuuriki himself which honestly does look like what he was doing before Kabuto brought Madara back into the field.
You misunderstand. How can Obito know the plan is even possible if the one who told him of the plan lied about everything? Unless there is some instruction manual for the Jyuubi (or the moon) that shows that adding the bijuus power with a genjutsu equals dream world, then everything Obito did was based on Madara's wishes and machinations, and if everything Obito did was based on a lie then why should the master plan be any different?
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Old 2012-10-19, 18:22   Link #115
Sabaku Kyu
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now it might seem quite improper or pathetic for obito creating a fake world only because his loved one dies and try to recreate her there and putting the rest world into chaos, but surely there would have been many unknown ninjas or people who would wanted to do something because their loved ones died, try to change their fate or do something about it, but the biggest difference is that obito had sources like himself being an uchiha and having MADARA himself as a mentor,
It is pretty pathetic. Understandable, but pathetic. A genjutsu won't bring Rin back to life. Obito knows that. It'll all be an illusion he buries himself in because he can't face reality. His love for Rin turned into an obsession. Someone who once placed loyalty above all things is now betraying everyone because he can't let go of one person.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
You misunderstand. How can Obito know the plan is even possible if the one who told him of the plan lied about everything? Unless there is some instruction manual for the Jyuubi (or the moon) that shows that adding the bijuus power with a genjutsu equals dream world, then everything Obito did was based on Madara's wishes and machinations, and if everything Obito did was based on a lie then why should the master plan be any different?
Agreed it's obvious Madara can't be trusted. But at this point, what did Obito really have to lose by going along with his plan?
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Old 2012-10-19, 18:59   Link #116
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
You misunderstand. How can Obito know the plan is even possible if the one who told him of the plan lied about everything? Unless there is some instruction manual for the Jyuubi (or the moon) that shows that adding the bijuus power with a genjutsu equals dream world, then everything Obito did was based on Madara's wishes and machinations, and if everything Obito did was based on a lie then why should the master plan be any different?
Why couldn't he know? As a MS/Rinnegan user with Senju DNA he's rather well placed to know what you can and cannot do with nearly infinite power backing your Doujutsu. Obito would have to take on faith that Madara wants a "peace" dream but there is no reason he cannot understand the feasability of the plan itself.
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It'll all be an illusion he buries himself in because he can't face reality.
It won't be the original Rin no matter what but considering the potential of Omnyoton it could very well end up to be real.
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Originally Posted by Fipskuul View Post
I think Madara was going to be brought back to life, regardless. Obito bet on the possibility of using Sasuke, and that failed the moment Sasuke met Itachi. It then only became a question of when. And we still don't know the extent of control Madara has had on Obito.
It's possible of course, I'm only speculating here but he didn't seem in no hurry to revive him and truly I still can't see where Sasuke fits in all this.
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Old 2012-10-20, 04:31   Link #117
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Here's my biggest problem with the Moon Eye plan, Madara's great plan is to create a genjutsu which would kill the entire population of the world, because people who aren't mostly plant or Zombies need things like food and water to stay alive. everyone under the Moon eye plan would be dead within 2 weeks??. making the Matrix with no life support is a terrible solution to the problem... in the Matrix at least the Machines knew how to keep the Humans alive and use them for Batteries.
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Old 2012-10-20, 04:44   Link #118
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It's possible of course, I'm only speculating here but he didn't seem in no hurry to revive him and truly I still can't see where Sasuke fits in all this.
That was also my impression, but there are a few panels which seem to be contradicting this. For example chapter 453 page 17: "i can't believe Nagato used rinne tensei like that, it's supposed to be for ME". Also it's quite odd that he refers to himself as if was the dead Madara and needed to be revived. This sentence can be explained only by having Obito's mind being controlled by Madara's will to an unknown extent. Otherwise why would he say that he needs to be revived when he's alive, that's even more odd than just playing the role of Madara in a dialogue where the other already knows he is not. Anyway, the only good explanation for Obito's behavior when attacking Konoha and in later events is that Tobi is not just Obito's personality but that his mind was augmented by Madara's knowledge and will which can not only give him the powerup needed but also changed his personality in a radical way. And his schizophrenic behavior of trying to be both Madara and Obito is a side effect of that.

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Originally Posted by Apollian View Post
Here's my biggest problem with the Moon Eye plan, Madara's great plan is to create a genjutsu which would kill the entire population of the world, because people who aren't mostly plant or Zombies need things like food and water to stay alive. everyone under the Moon eye plan would be dead within 2 weeks??. making the Matrix with no life support is a terrible solution to the problem... in the Matrix at least the Machines knew how to keep the Humans alive and use them for Batteries.
If you read back there was at least one post explaining a possible way for this to work. We have already seen insane levels of abilities from sharingan eyes. The obvious answer lies in the name of the jutsu: inside Tsukiyomi the caster controls the flow of time and therefore they can live forever while in the real world time is frozen. That is also the only way to create a proper "matrix", since if time flows in the real world then for example if in the real world you develop a cancer (and now i even assume that in a matrix your body is 100% safe from outer threat and is well fed with food and water and in a quiet place where it can sleep, just like in the Matrix) then you have to die also in the fake world.
An other more advanced possibility is what the sage of six paths could do and the izanagi seems to be a heavily dumbed down version of it: make your illusion a reality, not only for yourself as with izanagi but for the whole world. With that jutsu there's no difference/barrier between illusion and reality, pretty scary stuff, then Obito's will is instantaneously transformed into reality.
I would really be interested to see how Kishimoto imagined this, and since the original plan will obviously fail i really hope some lesser version of it will be shown later, and right now it seems that it can be done by Obito if he uses the incomplete 10-tails.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-10-20 at 08:52.
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Old 2012-10-20, 08:05   Link #119
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Apollian View Post
Here's my biggest problem with the Moon Eye plan, Madara's great plan is to create a genjutsu which would kill the entire population of the world, because people who aren't mostly plant or Zombies need things like food and water to stay alive. everyone under the Moon eye plan would be dead within 2 weeks??. making the Matrix with no life support is a terrible solution to the problem... in the Matrix at least the Machines knew how to keep the Humans alive and use them for Batteries.
That's not a problem. It's stated anyone living or dead can exist in the Infinite Tsukiyomi genjutsu as long as the caster wills it. That's why Obito doesn't bother killing Kakashi--he will exist regardless in the world he creates. The genjutsu is artificial in the sense that everything in it is created or controlled in some way by the caster, but as Hunter mentioned, it seems likely the dream world itself will physically exist.
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Old 2012-10-20, 09:35   Link #120
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That was also my impression, but there are a few panels which seem to be contradicting this. For example chapter 453 page 17: "i can't believe Nagato used rinne tensei like that, it's supposed to be for ME". Also it's quite odd that he refers to himself as if was the dead Madara and needed to be revived. This sentence can be explained only by having Obito's mind being controlled by Madara's will to an unknown extent.
you picked one interpretation of that sentence but there's easily another. obito wanting it used for him doesn't necessarily mean that it was supposed to be used on him. unless of course the original japanese wording is that specific. it can mean that nagato used rinne tensei for naruto or for konoha, not just for the people he killed. and therefore it can mean that obito wanted him to use it for him to revive madara

or it could be that obito was just in character or mind controlled at that time. point being that there are a few ways to look at it and it already makes sense without further explanation via my first interpretation
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