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Old 2012-10-20, 09:58   Link #121
james0246
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
it seems likely the dream world itself will physically exist.
How can it physically exist if it is based off of Tsukuyomi? Maybe if Obito used Izanagi, but Tsukuyomi is all about creating a dimension within the mind, a non-physical space by which the mind can be directly attacked without relief.

(Additionally, it is never explained how a jutsu designed to be used with eye contact is supposed to affect those that are blind, not to mention those that can't see the moon.)
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Old 2012-10-20, 12:14   Link #122
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
How can it physically exist if it is based off of Tsukuyomi? Maybe if Obito used Izanagi, but Tsukuyomi is all about creating a dimension within the mind, a non-physical space by which the mind can be directly attacked without relief.

(Additionally, it is never explained how a jutsu designed to be used with eye contact is supposed to affect those that are blind, not to mention those that can't see the moon.)
since the series is progressing toward people using the ultimate powers of the So6P then I would assume that bringing things into existence is now possible beyond even izanagi. it wasn't a fully developed concept, but when the So6P's powers were mentioned in flashbacks, he was said to be able to bring things into existence and life. It seems to follow that the moon's eye plan can do exactly that, although it hasn't been explicitly said to do that yet
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Old 2012-10-20, 13:01   Link #123
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
since the series is progressing toward people using the ultimate powers of the So6P then I would assume that bringing things into existence is now possible beyond even izanagi. it wasn't a fully developed concept, but when the So6P's powers were mentioned in flashbacks, he was said to be able to bring things into existence and life. It seems to follow that the moon's eye plan can do exactly that, although it hasn't been explicitly said to do that yet
I understand your reasoning (and I generally agree), but if they wanted to create shape and form from nothingness, then they should use Banbutsu Souzou - Rikudou-Sennin's jutsu that creates shape and form from nothingness. Hell, Madara even mentions such powers in this chapter when he creates the Black Zetsu and the black rods (using Onmyouton, In'youton, the core components of Banbutsu Souzou). Tsukuyomi just seems like an odd choice if you are trying to affect the physical world, especially since Tsukuyomi is meant to represent the "Spiritual World and Darkness" (compared to Amaterasu's "Material World and Light")...
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Old 2012-10-20, 13:54   Link #124
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
you picked one interpretation of that sentence but there's easily another. obito wanting it used for him doesn't necessarily mean that it was supposed to be used on him. unless of course the original japanese wording is that specific. it can mean that nagato used rinne tensei for naruto or for konoha, not just for the people he killed. and therefore it can mean that obito wanted him to use it for him to revive madara
That's what i was saying, if you look at what i was responding to. What i meant is that based on that one sentence Obito either wanted to resurrect Madara or it was Madara's will telling this. But in most of the other scenes it seems that Obito doesn't want Madara to be resurrected, or he simply does not care, because he wants to perform the jutsu himself and create his world and not Madara's world.

BTW when Kabuto talks to Madara through the zombie kage Muu he says he's not sure if Tobi wants to go by Madara's plan. Sure Kabuto would like if the Madara-Tobi alliance broke, but he wasn't telling a lie, so i think that's one of those scenes where the author wants to tell us that Tobi isn't going to be Madara's pawn, he has his own will that might be different from what Madara wants. And i think the most clear sign of this is Tobi's reaction when Kabuto summons Madara.

Funny thing is that the young Obito was shown taking care of elders, even when it meant being late for his mission, but after Madara saved his life he didn't really show respect to the old dying man from his own clan.
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Old 2012-10-20, 14:56   Link #125
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I understand your reasoning (and I generally agree), but if they wanted to create shape and form from nothingness, then they should use Banbutsu Souzou - Rikudou-Sennin's jutsu that creates shape and form from nothingness. Hell, Madara even mentions such powers in this chapter when he creates the Black Zetsu and the black rods (using Onmyouton, In'youton, the core components of Banbutsu Souzou). Tsukuyomi just seems like an odd choice if you are trying to affect the physical world, especially since Tsukuyomi is meant to represent the "Spiritual World and Darkness" (compared to Amaterasu's "Material World and Light")...
oh right on. thanks for the info. i need to brush up on those technique names lol. it's possible that infinite tsukuyomi is a slightly different technique than tsukuyomi, aside from the obvious difference in time limit. although from what we've seen so far I'm not inclined to think so unless another creation technique is layered over it to make the dream world real

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
That's what i was saying, if you look at what i was responding to. What i meant is that based on that one sentence Obito either wanted to resurrect Madara or it was Madara's will telling this. But in most of the other scenes it seems that Obito doesn't want Madara to be resurrected, or he simply does not care, because he wants to perform the jutsu himself and create his world and not Madara's world.
oh ok. i didn't read what you said that way. i'm not really sure what obito is up to. if he didn't want madara resurrected, i think he was capable of preventing kabuto from doing it. kabuto was powerful and was able to strengthen obito's army quite a bit, but putting a young and even more powerful madara into the mix would probably not be worth it if obito didn't want madara resurrected. it's more like obito doesn't care. like he is just along for the ride and let's fate completely dictate what happens next. it's actually pretty strange... i think it's likely that he can make use of ET madara

Quote:
i think that's one of those scenes where the author wants to tell us that Tobi isn't going to be Madara's pawn, he has his own will that might be different from what Madara wants. And i think the most clear sign of this is Tobi's reaction when Kabuto summons Madara.
i think that as well. that obito will eventually let on that he knows madara planned everything and that he isn't going to go along with the plan. but like i said earlier, if that was really the case, then it doesn't quite make sense for him to allow madara's resurrection. he also seemed genuinely disappointed that nagato 'wasted' rinne tensei on konoha. i think obito must need madara for something, but i also think obito has his own agenda. and of course, i think madara also doesn't quite trust obito either, but he also probably assumes that he's smart and strong enough to withstand any treachery obito can dish out.

Quote:
Funny thing is that the young Obito was shown taking care of elders, even when it meant being late for his mission, but after Madara saved his life he didn't really show respect to the old dying man from his own clan.
i don't think that's really a problem. there's a big difference between a sweet old lady and a shady old ninja who just happened to be one of the most powerful ninja in history. the setting of obito's recovery is also a very surreal and uncomfortable place. a lot different from the streets of the village he grew up in
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Old 2012-10-20, 16:02   Link #126
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Back to the idea that Obito doesn't want vengeance: If that was the case, why did he try and release the Kyuubi on Konoha? Baring the incident being done by someone else (or Obito being controlled), the most efficient course of action would be to either take Kushina while she was delivering the baby (effectively taking the container before it pops and then collecting the Kyuubi as Kushina dies without help), or take Kushina after the baby had been delivered. I understand why he waited until she was pregnant (it made it easier to remove the Kyuubi), but his approach to taking the Kyuubi was so inefficient and downright detrimental (since he lost control of the beast for 16-17 years, and even lost the ability to control the beast at all) that either Obito is a worse idiot than imagined (which is possible) or he let his emotions cloud his judgement.

Additionally, besides wanting a room full of Sharingans (which I already explained were inefficiently gathered), it's hard to decipher Obito's actions toward his clan (with regard to their slaughter) without seeing hatred in his actions.

In the end, can we really say that Obito is beyond vengeance?
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Old 2012-10-20, 18:25   Link #127
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Still think there should be more flashbacks to explain a lot more of the plot holes.
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Old 2012-10-20, 18:51   Link #128
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Obito was probably 13-14 years old when Kyuubi was released. Considering his lack of either knowledge or experience at the time, it is possible that he was just following Madara's orders (he was talking about a plan at the time). It was unfortunate for him that he was no Itachi, so making mistakes was an important part of him despite Madara's guidance and Zetsu's teachings/help.
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Old 2012-10-20, 23:01   Link #129
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Back to the idea that Obito doesn't want vengeance: If that was the case, why did he try and release the Kyuubi on Konoha?
Because Obito was still trying to make the readers believe he was Madara at this point.
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Old 2012-10-20, 23:29   Link #130
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Because Obito was still trying to make the readers believe he was Madara at this point.
We actually agree on something. Although I still feel like you're quite bitter when you mention readers rather than the 'shinobi world'.

Here's my take and it's taken me some random thoughts on this to conclude it:

Obito doesn't want revenge - He plays by Madara's rules but he's mostly angry, a'la Nagato. That's why he didn't take Kakashi's eye (which would've given him MUCH more power, a better MS ability and crippled Konoha incredibly) and why he seems rather timid that Madara is here. He has different plans for Moon's Eye Plan, but he's probably smart enough to know that's not what Madara is cooking.

Madara isn't going to just put the world in a genjutsu. Let's face it, he's not that... 'weird'. This is all a smoke screen. He wants to become the Jyuubi's Jinchuuriki because it would give him the powers of the Sage of the 6 Paths so he can take over the shinobi world. And where does Madara get off being upset about the sadness of the shinobi world? He didn't experience tragedy like Naruto, Sasuke, Nagato or Obito did. He just lost a fight. I don't buy it. I don't buy Madara's story.

Going back to Sasuke. I think we are going to get some answers about the Uchiha clan and that's going to answer a LOT of questions about the motives behind the slaughter and why the Uchiha wanted to branch away from Konoha. I think Orochimaru is going to Edo Tensei the Uchiha clan so Sasuke can ask them about the coup de'tat.
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Old 2012-10-21, 01:06   Link #131
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We actually agree on something. Although I still feel like you're quite bitter when you mention readers rather than the 'shinobi world'.
We don't. If I had meant "the shinobi world" I'd have said just that, since I didn't I meant something else.
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Old 2012-10-21, 05:48   Link #132
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Back to the idea that Obito doesn't want vengeance: If that was the case, why did he try and release the Kyuubi on Konoha?
well didn't akatsuki want to destroy konoha for a while and it was itachi who was preventing them from doing it? the ninja villages all stand in the way of the moon's eye plan and akatsuki collecting the bijou and basically akatsuki doing whatever it wants. infinite tsukiyomi would put the entire world under genjutsu theoretically, but only the powerful ninja villages have the strength and knowledge to stop it. the rest of the world is oblivious and incapable. destroying konoha and the other major villages is another piece to akatsuki's puzzle of world domination. and the second itachi was dead, they went straight for konoha again. it doesn't have to be an act of vengeance. it's an act of necessity to wipe out a threat

not only that, but the kyuubi attack was necessary to set up the uchiha to be suspicious and ultimately massacred and set that whole line of events involving itachi and sasuke in motion as well. so even if it failed to annihilate konoha (which it did) it still served a purpose
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Old 2012-10-21, 14:28   Link #133
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I always just assumed he unleashed the Nine-Tails to test its capabilities, before sealing it into the mazou.
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Old 2012-10-21, 14:51   Link #134
james0246
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I always just assumed he unleashed the Nine-Tails to test its capabilities, before sealing it into the mazou.
He needed the beast to be released from Kushina's tummy. Anything beyond that is personal motivation.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:35   Link #135
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I always just assumed he unleashed the Nine-Tails to test its capabilities, before sealing it into the mazou.
there wasn't really a need to test it's capabilities since obito could not only trust its history, he could control it with sharingan anyway. also the plan was to combine it with the other bijou into the juubi so the kyuubi's individuality isn't really important to obito.



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He needed the beast to be released from Kushina's tummy. Anything beyond that is personal motivation.
i dont think so. not only was konoha a very real threat to akatsuki since they would no doubt retaliate for the kidnapping/murder of kushina and theft of the kyuubi, and of course down the road when akatsuki acted again, but the attack also was necessary to frame the uchiha who needed to be eliminated for their eyes as well as their own threat to obito's plans.

one of the few, if only personal motivations in obito i've seen is him not taking back kakashi's sharingan
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Old 2012-10-22, 09:07   Link #136
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Doing all this to bring back Rin in a Dream world....
Idk Could you have gotten Nagato to bring her back with Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique, which you planned to do with Madara?
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Old 2012-10-22, 09:22   Link #137
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one of the few, if only personal motivations in obito i've seen is him not taking back kakashi's sharingan
From not taking back his eye and killing Kakashi to becoming the mass murderer of konoha is the real question for me. Letting Madara's will take over his mind is the only logical explanation i can see right now. Otherwise these chapters that are meant to clear up possible plot holes have introduced another one: Kakashi being alive and part of the story
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Old 2012-10-22, 10:15   Link #138
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i dont think so. not only was konoha a very real threat to akatsuki since they would no doubt retaliate for the kidnapping/murder of kushina and theft of the kyuubi, and of course down the road when akatsuki acted again
Considering how easy Akatsuki had it in going in to any village and taking what they want, I doubt Konoha's destruction would matter to their plans (as we know them). And, when you have powers like Obito's, there are no real threats (which begs the question of why he didn't capture all the Jinchuuriki ages ago).

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but the attack also was necessary to frame the uchiha who needed to be eliminated for their eyes as well as their own threat to obito's plans.
Considering the ease of their elimination, and the inefficiency of their eye retrieval (which I mentioned earlier), setting the Uchiha up seemed more like a peripheral detail that resulted from Obito not performing the plan properly.
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Old 2012-10-22, 10:28   Link #139
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when you have powers like Obito's, there are no real threats (which begs the question of why he didn't capture all the Jinchuuriki ages ago).
It is not guaranteed that there are no real threats, regardless of one's own skill - Mabui could teleport stuff around the world too, Oonoki could fly, the previous Raikage could...only die by his own fists(?) and Minato proved himself a force to be reckoned with, even for a ninja with Obito's powers. Not to mention that, in the end, Obito only had a suspicious mentor and a few clones on his side, not really the best situation to go around stealing hidden weapons.

That being said, it would be super-easy to destroy the world by nicking 2 jinchuuriki and having Zetsu pull the trigger on world war...
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Old 2012-10-22, 10:33   Link #140
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From not taking back his eye and killing Kakashi to becoming the mass murderer of konoha is the real question for me. Letting Madara's will take over his mind is the only logical explanation i can see right now. Otherwise these chapters that are meant to clear up possible plot holes have introduced another one: Kakashi being alive and part of the story
Those flashbacks meant to clear things up started with a shot of all the adult graduating together when they are years apart from one another and weren't supposed to graduate at the same time (for example Anko wasn't even supposed to be born when Kakashi graduated at 5 years old), showed Sarutobi and his team to be already old folks, had Yondaime's face on mount Hokage whereas he was still a Jounin next to the already cracked face of the 3rd 15 years before it happened.*
To be perfectly honest I think this first flashback chapte was quite fitting.

More seriously you can wonder about that all day why did he attack Konoha, why does he want to see an Uchiha fight a Senju, why did he play the part of Madara when he was alone or with Zetsu, his very introduction when the Zetsus wondered about Tobi the good boy, his willingness to show his face to Sasuke before it was stopped or why let Kakashi keep his eye, or any of the other dozen or so problems already pointed out previously but there is only one shared answer to all those : Obito was playing the part of Madara to his audience and his audience was us.

*to be fair the author corrected 2 of those in the release of the tankoubon.
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