AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-07-19, 09:32   Link #241
BladeEntity
Anything's Possible
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Looks like Ai's hat to me though
__________________
Nothing is Impossible
BladeEntity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-19, 20:04   Link #242
Sute443
Sasaki-ist
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
^ I don't think you should make assumptions like this before actually knowing what is going on.

I am just saying there was probably more to this then what we were shown. And if I was going to make an educated guess I doubt what Hampnie did would be considered murder.
Perhaps there is more to it than what we've seen (it would be pretty boring if there wasn't, actually), but I could say the same thing about assumptions to you (provided that you aren't working based on info from the source). The show hasn't actually confirmed that the villagers were "dead" yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Yes, being dead means something different here and in real world. And that is point. You automaticaly suppose both "Deaths" are equaly correct. Which isn't neccesary true. If Real death were proper one, and sunday death were twisted/incomplete it would give HH morral justification for his deed. Fact that society there consider it to be such also help his case ("Proper" burial is supposed be imidietely after death, remember?)
I'm gonna have to ask you to explain the logic behind your argument that if Sunday death is twisted/incomplete then HH's actions were morally justified.

And when was it established that burial by a Gravekeeper is supposed to occur immediately after death? I'm honestly not recalling if that happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Personaly I also consider Sunday death to be unnatural, but there is no way actualy decide with certainity who is correct so in the end HH action are left moraly ambigious instead of pitch black. Not jut it's Moraly impossible decide, but legaly there is no precedence either(or I wouldn't be suprised even if there were precedence against in that world) thus it's not murder nor genocide no metter how you look on it.
I think that the evidence we currently have paint HH's actions in the village quite blackly. Maybe there's more to the situation that will change how they look later on, but right now it looks like what he did was wrong.

Is it really wrong for somebody to move around after they "die" just because it's "unnatural"? Even though in Sunday it appears to be God's will? Remember that the Gravekeepers came a while after death stopped working. Couldn't someone try to put their post-death time to good use? Imagine:

Random guy: I got shot through the heart, but I can still move? This is wonderful, now I can go back to my family and help take care of them instead of them having to carry on without a father!

HH: LOL NO! *Headshot*
__________________
Sute443 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-19, 21:39   Link #243
Tranhieu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
^ I think you misunderstood something here. It wasn't mentioned anywhere HH would shoot people as he pleased just right after they're dead, what we've been shown up til now is that he only shot those (the villagers and Juvie's wife) who tried to go against nature's order by clinging to life even after dying. The bad thing about it is that the longer they stay on earth the stronger their desire not to die, and the Half-dead Fever was the worst thing happened to mankind after their immortality wish was granted. Not to mention how the families of the dead will start clinging to their loved ones later on, which will become a huge burden to the society.

You're free to go back finishing your business after dying, but remember to dig a hole, that's all there's to it.
Tranhieu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-19, 23:34   Link #244
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
I think that the evidence we currently have paint HH's actions in the village quite blackly. Maybe there's more to the situation that will change how they look later on, but right now it looks like what he did was wrong.

Is it really wrong for somebody to move around after they "die" just because it's "unnatural"? Even though in Sunday it appears to be God's will? Remember that the Gravekeepers came a while after death stopped working. Couldn't someone try to put their post-death time to good use? Imagine:

Random guy: I got shot through the heart, but I can still move? This is wonderful, now I can go back to my family and help take care of them instead of them having to carry on without a father!

HH: LOL NO! *Headshot*
I'm pretty sure it's quite clear that the villagers aren't entirely innocent and have been hiding something from Ai.

There's also the question of how Alfa could possibly die on her own. For all we know, they could have incapacitated Alfa because they were afraid of her gravekeeper powers, then deceived Ai into killing her by burying her.
Shadow5YA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-19, 23:44   Link #245
Cloudedmind
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
Age: 28
Send a message via MSN to Cloudedmind
HH really got on my nerves as well as Ai's willingness to follow him even after everything he'd done, but it's an interesting premise, and I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes.

In regards to what's been mentioned above. I'm guessing that HH feels justified in doing what he does, and may be justified within the confines of this show if the villagers really were already dead and he's trying to keep something like the Half-Dead fever from happening again. Sure perhaps the process takes a while to happen, but slowly but surely it happens, and the people go crazy and endanger others.
Cloudedmind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 00:04   Link #246
Sute443
Sasaki-ist
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 27
@Tranhieu Well the part about how the guy was freshly dead wasn't really the important part in that. Let me try again:

Wife: Oh, honey, I'm so glad you're still around to help out even after your accident. I don't know how we'd survive without you! Imagine how bad off the village would be if it lost its only doctor!
"Dead" husband: I know, right? An undead doctor may be weird, but I'm still useful!
HH: *Headshot*

So okay, Half-Dead Fever is a big deal, but let's go back to considering the villagers for a moment. Some people are speculating that they killed Ai's mother because she tried to bury them because they were Sunday-Dead. That happened when Ai was 7. She is now 12. So if they killed Ai's mother because she wanted to bury them, that means they were dead for at least five years before HH attacked them. I didn't see any signs of Half-Dead Fever in them, did you? So Half-Dead Fever can take a LONG time to become a problem. So even if the villagers were Sunday-Dead, he didn't have to do what he did, when he did it.

Of course, since that argument assumes that the villagers killed Ai's mother and were already Sunday-Dead for five years, it could easily be wrong. Those are some pretty big assumptions to make.

Which reminds me, I have a question for the people who think that the villagers were already Sunday-Dead. What exactly do you think killed them?

Incidentally, while I was writing this post I rewatched part of the first episode for reference and noticed something odd. After Ai accused HH of lying, he claimed that people killing people is now a thing of the past, because only gravekeepers can kill people now. That suggests that he might not consider ending someone's life signs to be the same as killing them. The villagers may well have been alive in the traditional sense before HH's attack.

Then again, this could all be contradicted by the LNs, which I don't read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I'm pretty sure it's quite clear that the villagers aren't entirely innocent and have been hiding something from Ai.

There's also the question of how Alfa could possibly die on her own. For all we know, they could have incapacitated Alfa because they were afraid of her gravekeeper powers, then deceived Ai into killing her by burying her.
Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Not enough information yet. HH didn't show any sign of knowing about it, unless it had to do with the villagers being Sunday-Dead (which I'd still have complaints about).

Regarding Alfa's death, isn't it just as likely that it has something to do with Ai existing? A gravekeeper child is something that isn't supposed to exist, so Alfa may have had some serious issues that arose from that (life force depletion or something like that).
__________________
Sute443 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 00:12   Link #247
Chiibi
Lolli for loli :D
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: in a boring place you will not want to go to
Send a message via AIM to Chiibi Send a message via MSN to Chiibi
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEroKing View Post
ofc all badass characters are hidden lolicons

The things I say after I just wake up x_x
Nay, not crazy at all. IT'S TOTALLY TRUE.

Quote:
I tried this based on the summary and the fact there was a white-haired guy in a long black coat shallow much.
That's not shallow at all.
__________________
Chiibi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 00:46   Link #248
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Not enough information yet. HH didn't show any sign of knowing about it, unless it had to do with the villagers being Sunday-Dead (which I'd still have complaints about).
Episode 2 ended with Humpnie outright saying that Ai will find out what the village was hiding eventually herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
Regarding Alfa's death, isn't it just as likely that it has something to do with Ai existing? A gravekeeper child is something that isn't supposed to exist, so Alfa may have had some serious issues that arose from that (life force depletion or something like that).
Even then, Alfa still needed to be buried just like anyone else to be laid to rest completely. With the entire village being fine living as undead and having no intention of passing on themselves, why wasn't Alfa allowed to do the same? It doesn't add up.


Also, let's keep in mind that you are not defending terminally ill people. Ai commented on Anna's smell which was likely implied to be her rotting body. The farmer who got half his head out looked disturbing, still being able to move around. There is something inherently wrong with dead people being able to move around, and even Ai instinctively felt horrified, even they were people close to her.
Shadow5YA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 03:47   Link #249
Tranhieu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
@Tranhieu Well the part about how the guy was freshly dead wasn't really the important part in that. Let me try again:

Wife: Oh, honey, I'm so glad you're still around to help out even after your accident. I don't know how we'd survive without you! Imagine how bad off the village would be if it lost its only doctor!
"Dead" husband: I know, right? An undead doctor may be weird, but I'm still useful!
HH: *Headshot*

So okay, Half-Dead Fever is a big deal, but let's go back to considering the villagers for a moment. Some people are speculating that they killed Ai's mother because she tried to bury them because they were Sunday-Dead. That happened when Ai was 7. She is now 12. So if they killed Ai's mother because she wanted to bury them, that means they were dead for at least five years before HH attacked them. I didn't see any signs of Half-Dead Fever in them, did you? So Half-Dead Fever can take a LONG time to become a problem. So even if the villagers were Sunday-Dead, he didn't have to do what he did, when he did it.

Of course, since that argument assumes that the villagers killed Ai's mother and were already Sunday-Dead for five years, it could easily be wrong. Those are some pretty big assumptions to make.

Which reminds me, I have a question for the people who think that the villagers were already Sunday-Dead. What exactly do you think killed them?

Incidentally, while I was writing this post I rewatched part of the first episode for reference and noticed something odd. After Ai accused HH of lying, he claimed that people killing people is now a thing of the past, because only gravekeepers can kill people now. That suggests that he might not consider ending someone's life signs to be the same as killing them. The villagers may well have been alive in the traditional sense before HH's attack.

Then again, this could all be contradicted by the LNs, which I don't read.



Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Not enough information yet. HH didn't show any sign of knowing about it, unless it had to do with the villagers being Sunday-Dead (which I'd still have complaints about).

Regarding Alfa's death, isn't it just as likely that it has something to do with Ai existing? A gravekeeper child is something that isn't supposed to exist, so Alfa may have had some serious issues that arose from that (life force depletion or something like that).
It's better we save the issue of the village for later discussion since there's not much information provided so far except for the fact that they've been hiding something from Ai. It's not clear when those people died (maybe after Ai's mom passed away?) but it's obvious they died at some point in the last 5 years (or else why the haste to dig exactly 47 holes for everyone?). And personally I don't go along with the speculation that the villagers secretly killed Ai's mom either.

That aside it's hard to defend HH's view without accidentally dropping spoilers here and there, all thanks to the anime rushing things and ended up skipping some character development parts (both Ai's and HH's). You may wanna have a look at the manga to have a better grip on HH's 'black' justice.
Tranhieu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 07:23   Link #250
Kirarakim
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
Perhaps there is more to it than what we've seen (it would be pretty boring if there wasn't, actually), but I could say the same thing about assumptions to you (provided that you aren't working based on info from the source). *
No I have not read the source. As I said I made an educated guess based on what we've seen and what was said so far. Hampnie hardly comes off as a mass murdering villain. He comes off as the more than he seems type.

He also seems to be the secondary main character.
__________________
Kirarakim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 08:53   Link #251
Haak
Haters Gonna Hate
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
When it comes to morality and Humpty, I'll just say that from what it looks like at the moment to me, Humpty pretty much seems like a horrible human being and definitely a mass murderer. He implies that there were justifications for what he did and if Ai wants to give him the opportunity to prove it then it's fine for her to do so. But what i find slightly problematic is that Ai seems just a bit too trusting of someone she saw brutally murder the people she loved and that the only reason we know that Humpty probably does have a good reason is more due to the narrative than than anything else, since it makes it far too clear that Humpty's brief justification at the end of the episode was more exposition than a murderer's excuse.

In any case, having finally gotten round to watching the first two episodes i have to say that I'm positively enraptured. The second episode in particular was great in it's atmosphere and in giving us more and interesting sides to Humpty who is a fascinating mystery (even if he's not that difficult a mystery). I just hope it doesn't drag out the mystery side of him for too long. I mean most of us have already managed to grasp a good idea of what his motive was for killing the villagers and if they make it too obvious then the revelation will be lacking impact. This is only important, however, if it's as integral to the show as the end of the episode made it out to be.
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 09:38   Link #252
orion
Waiting for more taiyuki!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
I find it difficult to call someone a mass murderer who is only stalling zombies for the Gravekeeper to "put to rest". They're pretty much dead before he gets to them. Intelligent zombies are still zombies.
__________________
orion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 09:51   Link #253
Haak
Haters Gonna Hate
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
As far as I'm concerned, if something has conciousness and intelligence then it is most definitely alive, regardless of what it's body is like. In any case it's all dependant on where you are on the sliding scale.
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 10:02   Link #254
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
As far as I'm concerned, if something has conciousness and intelligence then it is most definitely alive, regardless of what it's body is like. In any case it's all dependant on where you are on the sliding scale.
"Alive" and "Human" are two different things.

I can't say Scar is human with how robotic she acts. I also can't say I'd be comfortable talking to a person with wide open, unfocused eyes and half his head missing either.

In any case, there are plenty of reasons to dislike and be uncomfortable living with zombies. To say there is nothing wrong with them is simply incorrect.
Shadow5YA is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 11:59   Link #255
justpassingby
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberjaya, Malaysia
Age: 28
The way the ED song was played this week only made me cry more ;_;
__________________
一生 忘れられないよ ずっとずっと 大事な贈り物
一生 忘れられないよ きっときっと こいつは宝物
justpassingby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 12:03   Link #256
MisaoFan
Treasure-Seeking Explorer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Paris, France
Spoiler for Episode 3:
__________________
<img src=http://i.imgur.com/O5yUSnx.png border=0 alt= />I will protect you from the darkness and I change my destiny.
MyAnimeList
MisaoFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 12:10   Link #257
orion
Waiting for more taiyuki!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
^Waiting for the subs but it sounds like something got changed again...
__________________
orion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 14:55   Link #258
Tenzen12
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
I'm gonna have to ask you to explain the logic behind your argument that if Sunday death is twisted/incomplete then HH's actions were morally justified
Because if it is twisted and incomlete, what HH done was just helping return them inot correct and complete state of death. Anyone should be able realise that "Twisted/incomplete" is wrong state of thing

Quote:
And when was it established that burial by a Gravekeeper is supposed to occur immediately after death? I'm honestly not recalling if that happened.
When HH and Yuri talked. HH asked if later did properly (unlike his wife) burried his daughter. Which he confirmed.

And of course HH couldn't kill anyone simply cause not being able moving talking and stuff doesn't isn't same as death, comatose patients aren't dead neither paralised ones. There are only two type of dead: biological and spiritual. First is impossible for HH cause they were dead in that sense already, later is even more impossible than first cause only Grave keeper can do that. Thus HH is guilty by "mere" Grievous bodily harm and real "murder" in this case is Ai who also "murdered" own mother before.
Tenzen12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 17:40   Link #259
Eclipze
Ouran dansen
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Singapore
I think the biggest problem some people have with HH's killing of the villagers (myself included) is that he is the aggressor on an otherwise non-aggressive group of people (unless they had initiated the attack on HH, which is doubtful in this case). Of course there will probably be more information revealed eventually, mainly in regards to the "secret" that the villagers were hiding from Ai.

Its also interesting to note how the last zombie villager who got terminated (had half his face blown off) actually chose to cover/protect Ai instead of running away/attacking her/charging blindly to HH considering how they (undead/zombies) would supposedly get more aggressive when it comes to their survival, which is clearly not depicted that way in this case.

Considering how no new humans can be born anymore (and hence humanity would get wiped out within 30-50 years) kinda makes the whole point of not wanting the living to get too attached to their undead family members seem a little moot IMO.
__________________
Eclipze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-20, 17:54   Link #260
Sute443
Sasaki-ist
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Episode 2 ended with Humpnie outright saying that Ai will find out what the village was hiding eventually herself.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Even then, Alfa still needed to be buried just like anyone else to be laid to rest completely. With the entire village being fine living as undead and having no intention of passing on themselves, why wasn't Alfa allowed to do the same? It doesn't add up.
We don't yet know of the condition Alfa's body was in after her Sunday-Death (haven't watched ep 3 yet, don't know it that's changed); she may not have been in a condition in which she could continue having a life. Or, being a Gravekeeper, she may have wanted to be buried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Also, let's keep in mind that you are not defending terminally ill people. Ai commented on Anna's smell which was likely implied to be her rotting body. The farmer who got half his head out looked disturbing, still being able to move around. There is something inherently wrong with dead people being able to move around, and even Ai instinctively felt horrified, even they were people close to her.
I've seen pictures of a woman who had her face eaten off by a rampaging chimpanzee. It was pretty horrifying. But it didn't mean that the woman should be put down like a monster. The guy looked scary, there doesn't have to be anything more to Ai's reaction than that. Give him some prosthesis and he would've been fine. Having half your head blown off doesn't make you a monster if you remain the same person inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranhieu View Post
It's better we save the issue of the village for later discussion since there's not much information provided so far except for the fact that they've been hiding something from Ai. It's not clear when those people died (maybe after Ai's mom passed away?) but it's obvious they died at some point in the last 5 years (or else why the haste to dig exactly 47 holes for everyone?). And personally I don't go along with the speculation that the villagers secretly killed Ai's mom either.

That aside it's hard to defend HH's view without accidentally dropping spoilers here and there, all thanks to the anime rushing things and ended up skipping some character development parts (both Ai's and HH's). You may wanna have a look at the manga to have a better grip on HH's 'black' justice.
I won't touch on most of this stuff because I want to avoid spoilers and enjoy the anime on its own merits, but I will offer a possible reason for Ai to have hurried with the graves: She's a small girl, and it took her years to dig enough graves. If some disaster had occurred that killed a bunch of the villagers and she didn't have the graves ready, how long would they have had to suffer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
No I have not read the source. As I said I made an educated guess based on what we've seen and what was said so far. Hampnie hardly comes off as a mass murdering villain. He comes off as the more than he seems type.

He also seems to be the secondary main character.
Fair enough. I dislike using reasoning that goes outside the show's internal logic, but your interpretation is probably closer to the creator's intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
I find it difficult to call someone a mass murderer who is only stalling zombies for the Gravekeeper to "put to rest". They're pretty much dead before he gets to them. Intelligent zombies are still zombies.
I'm curious, why do you draw a line between humans and intelligent zombies? I could understand if we were talking about Land of the Dead style intelligent zombies, but we're talking about people who can do pretty much everything they could while they were alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Because if it is twisted and incomlete, what HH done was just helping return them inot correct and complete state of death. Anyone should be able realise that "Twisted/incomplete" is wrong state of thing
But they preferred the twisted and incomplete state. Who gave HH the right to deprive them of that choice? Even if wanting to remain in that state isn't the right decision, don't people have the right to be wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
When HH and Yuri talked. HH asked if later did properly (unlike his wife) burried his daughter. Which he confirmed.
Okey-dokey, it was established. So society saying it's okay means it's morally okay to shoot up a bunch of townsfolk who are minding their own business. Sounds like something is wrong with that society to me, but we can differ on the sources of morality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
And of course HH couldn't kill anyone simply cause not being able moving talking and stuff doesn't isn't same as death, comatose patients aren't dead neither paralised ones. There are only two type of dead: biological and spiritual. First is impossible for HH cause they were dead in that sense already, later is even more impossible than first cause only Grave keeper can do that. Thus HH is guilty by "mere" Grievous bodily harm and real "murder" in this case is Ai who also "murdered" own mother before.
Well- um- hm... The first part there is actually a really good argument and makes me wonder if Sunday-Death works in such a way that attaching computers to the remains of their brainstems would have allowed the villagers to think again... Don't think it's right to say that Ai murdered anyone, though.
__________________
Sute443 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
fantasy, mystery

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.