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Old 2012-10-26, 17:16   Link #81
karice67
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
It seems to me most of those things are done by people, not the system. The system just evaluates a person. It's society that says "We're not going to hire you if you don't have an A rank." or "Your Crime Coefficient is too high so you won't be able to have a job anywhere ever." The system doesn't say this.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sure the system says this. That's part of the system. You're drawing an entirely false distinction here.
To throw in my two cents, this little exchange highlights one of the issues you've all been having in your discussion: you're not all on the same page about what "the system" is.

Some of you are using it to refer to the technological system that provides the CC and psycho-pass readings, others the whole societal system, and yet others, the "Sybil System" - but again, the boundaries of each of those systems are blurred and arguably different for different posters.

Might I suggest defining what you mean by "the system" (each time you post about it, if needed)? It'll be a little more effort on everyone's part (both in writing and reading), but at least you'll be able to know what each other is talking about.
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Old 2012-10-26, 17:20   Link #82
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What I'm referring to is the Sibyl System. I think that's the most pertinent system to focus on, since it's what the characters themselves are discussing.
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Old 2012-10-26, 17:39   Link #83
Anh_Minh
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Whereas I mean the society built around it. As in "fight the system!". More than just the technical developments, I mean the laws and practices they made possible, as well as the culture.

For Sybil I just say "Sybil".
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Old 2012-10-26, 17:41   Link #84
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Can I just say that I think it is great we are having these discussions & disagreements. It's what I like best about Gen's works that they are a bit morally ambiguous. I think we are supposed to disagree like this.

It's also what I didn't like about the first episode. Things seemed way too straight forward: The System is bad and has to be over thrown.

But now I am glad we can disagree and personally I hope we continue disagreeing throughout the series, it's a sign Gen is doing what he does best.
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Old 2012-10-26, 17:45   Link #85
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What I'm referring to is the Sibyl System. I think that's the most pertinent system to focus on, since it's what the characters themselves are discussing.
Well, regardless of what the dominator/Sibyl System decides as the best course of action, the people still has the final say in the matter (and exactly what the supervision alludes to in this episode).

Being treated like crap because of being labelled a latent criminal isn't something the system suggests, it only suggests to keep an eye out on them.
Computers lack empathy, so the people can still take whatever action at their own disgression, like Akane intervening in the situation in ep 1. Akane was then asked to explain her actions, not locked up for not listening to Sibyl.
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Old 2012-10-26, 18:13   Link #86
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To me PP world seems to have stretched to its limits some standards of our world, like the educational system that should, along your early years, orient you toward what fits you better, simply an indication. Or the criminal justice/crime prevention that should "prevent", reduce or keep under control crimes, but we know how hard it could be depending on many factors. Nothing more than this has been altered/stretched in the PP world, apparently.
What if we would find a way to establish with a very little margin of error what's the more fitting work for each of us? Wouldn't the business companies take advantage of it? What if we would find a way to establish a way to really prevent crimes, even if with an "acceptably" margin of error? Wouldn't the crowd be charmed by this? Yes.
What I find interesting is that PP world is not just-another-dystopian-world, I mean, it seems to be not a consequence of some big war or catastrophe, but "just" of the evolution. Nothing seems to have been really imposed. The aspects described seems to be a sort natural evolution of that undetermined factors becoming determined. how would humanity adapt to it? Apparently loosing its humanity. And it doesn't seems to matter if you are at the top of the hierarchy or at the bottom of it. For these reasons I find this world a bit more creepy than a totalitarian world or whatever where laws are imposed. In this world are not, they seems to be accepted. And for the same reason I'm less judgmental than I would be toward the characters and their behaviors.
What I'm trying to say it's that I find this show intriguing
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Old 2012-10-26, 18:53   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post

It's also what I didn't like about the first episode. Things seemed way too straight forward: The System is bad and has to be over thrown.
What was shown in episodes two and three that makes the System look better to you?

As I wrote before, I think Gen has done just about everything he can to make the system look bad, short of making it cartoonish. If the system was intended to be ambiguous, I'd expect to see a couple more clear-cut positive outcomes of it to balance things out. Such balance is lacking, imo, so...


Personally, I think it's possible that Gen is aiming for Orwell-esque social commentary here.

There's many possible themes that I can already see here:

1. There are limits to how far humanity should progress in a technocratic direction.

2. Humans can be too trusting of machines or systems, and become overly complacent when it comes to practicing personal judgement.

3. Getting "tough on crime" isn't always the best answer to crime. Sometimes it's better to understand the root causes of crime (some of which are due to societal or systematic flaws), and to work to correct those root causes.


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Well, regardless of what the dominator/Sibyl System decides as the best course of action, the people still has the final say in the matter (and exactly what the supervision alludes to in this episode).

Being treated like crap because of being labelled a latent criminal isn't something the system suggests, it only suggests to keep an eye out on them.
How do you know that? Seriously, what particular scene or character quote makes you think this?

Maybe I missed something, but from what I can tell, it seems entirely possible that there's a highly advanced AI system which has been designed to carefully chart and limit the course of each human's life within the world of Psycho-Pass. Many of its "suggestions" may well be hard-and-fast "law". For example, only those with high potential for multiple disciplines, such as Akane, seem to have much flexibility when it comes to determining their course in life.

Now, of course, you can only blame an AI system so much because it was ultimately designed by humans (or a human, at least). Nonetheless, it's not hard to conceive of an AI that acts as a virtually unquestioned societal Supervisor. For all we know, the Sibyl System may be exactly that (and in fact, the way the characters talk about Sibyl suggests to me that this is what it is).


Quote:
Computers lack empathy, so the people can still take whatever action at their own disgression, like Akane intervening in the situation in ep 1. Akane was then asked to explain her actions, not locked up for not listening to Sibyl.
A couple points:

1. There have been AIs in fiction that were capable of emotion. Data and Lore of Star Trek are prominent examples here.

2. Even if Sibyl lacks empathy, maybe people themselves just don't care. Or, in fact, that might be part of the appeal of Sibyl to some folks. In real life, a lot of people think that judges tend to be too lenient when passing out sentences to convicted criminals (and in fairness, there are definitely cases where I can see why people would think that). I can see many people thinking "Finally, a computerized judge that won't be swayed by some bleeding-heart sob story; finally, criminals will get the sentences that they deserve".


As for Akane not being locked up, maybe the system gives some leeway for raw rookies. Or maybe those with high potential are given certain allowances that others aren't (notice how Shinya's home doesn't seem to have the same neat holographic technology that Akane's does - Is that because Shinya doesn't want it, or is that because the system doesn't deem Shinya as worthy of the same benefits that Akane enjoys?)


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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
What I find interesting is that PP world is not just-another-dystopian-world, I mean, it seems to be not a consequence of some big war or catastrophe, but "just" of the evolution. Nothing seems to have been really imposed. The aspects described seems to be a sort natural evolution of that undetermined factors becoming determined. how would humanity adapt to it? Apparently loosing its humanity. And it doesn't seems to matter if you are at the top of the hierarchy or at the bottom of it. For these reasons I find this world a bit more creepy than a totalitarian world or whatever where laws are imposed. In this world are not, they seems to be accepted. And for the same reason I'm less judgmental than I would be toward the characters and their behaviors.
What I'm trying to say it's that I find this show intriguing
I agree with all of this.

Psycho-Pass presents a world that's creepy precisely because it's not that hard to see how a certain technocratic vision, and a couple believable technological advancements, could take us from where we are now to what the world is like in Psycho-Pass. Like you said, nothing all that dramatic (like a nuclear world war, or something like Skynet from the Terminator movies) would be necessary for a world like Psycho-Pass' to come into existence.

The best dsytopian or cyberpunk fiction puts forwards worlds that feel like they could be just around the corner of where we are now, which is what makes them so chilling and intriguing. I view them as compelling cautionary tales of what can become of humanity if we aren't careful.
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Old 2012-10-26, 19:10   Link #88
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Sure the system says this. That's part of the system. You're drawing an entirely false distinction here.
Do you have an example?
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Old 2012-10-26, 19:24   Link #89
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What was shown in episodes two and three that makes the System look better to you?
I personally don't think the system looks better but the fact that we are discussing it and a lot of people disagree that it is completely wrong is what interests me.

I am interested in the thoughts and opinions that other people bring to the discussion. If we all thought the system was wrong and everything was black & white here then I would find the show boring, but the very fact that we are all disagreeing is what makes the system and the series intriguing to me.

Also after only 3 episodes I am not so set in my opinions yet either, hence it is very possible that someone can disagree with me and convince me otherwise. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.
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Old 2012-10-26, 22:57   Link #90
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Psycho-Pass presents a world that's creepy precisely because it's not that hard to see how a certain technocratic vision, and a couple believable technological advancements, could take us from where we are now to what the world is like in Psycho-Pass. Like you said, nothing all that dramatic (like a nuclear world war, or something like Skynet from the Terminator movies) would be necessary for a world like Psycho-Pass' to come into existence.

The best dsytopian or cyberpunk fiction puts forwards worlds that feel like they could be just around the corner of where we are now, which is what makes them so chilling and intriguing. I view them as compelling cautionary tales of what can become of humanity if we aren't careful.
So true all it would take is a sway in public opinion, a few changes in legislation, and their you go you have a super computer in charge of peoples everyday lives.

A scary thought know?

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would love to see a subforum for this anime
agreed we should get one going!
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Old 2012-10-27, 00:58   Link #91
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How do you know that? Seriously, what particular scene or character quote makes you think this?
Sorry, but please don't ask "How do you know that?", but ask "What makes you think that?". Of course, I don't know.

Here's my interpretations regarding Sybil itself:
1) Ep 3: "We depend on machines for all the other processes, but the final check still needs to be done by humans, as it's always been.", quoted by the supervisor.
Forgive me for stretching the context of this line beyond the factory, but to me, people still "try" to separate machine judgement from human judgement ("try" being the operative word). And I believe Sybil is a machine. Whether they add their own judgement to the machine's judgement is still up to their discretion. Clearly the supervisor had some idea of what's going on, but because the readings looked "ok", he purposely turned a blind eye (* more on this later in my post). That's his choice. Will he be held accountable in the next episode? I'm banking on no, but we'll wait and see on that issue.
2) The dominator gun doesn't fire on its own, as others have mentioned. This is because it cannot judge the surrounding situation. Again, that's the gun-user's discretion on what action they want to take.
3) Ep 1: "It says that Okura Nobuo is no longer someone who's needed in this world.", quoted by Masaoka. He did not say the law demands him to be killed, only the system calculated he has no more benefit to the world, and rehabilitation won't work on him.
4) Ep 1: "This town's system itself has decided that she's a threat. Think about what that means!", quoted by Masaoka. Again, they're interpreting what it means when the Sybil system called her a threat.

Anyway, I think you're making the same argument as Anh_Minh. That is, your beef is the society built around the Sybil system (which probably makes my whole argument above pointless to make ).
All Sybil's doing is crunching numbers and deciding what the likely outcome will happen. If you want to argue whether a system can crunch numbers to detect latent criminals at a young age, well I'm not sure how the story will be able to prove or disprove it. I'm willing to suspend my belief that the system can, and I'm not sure if that's what issue they want to explore on.
At this point of time, the Sybil's threat detection on the immediate situation has been correct.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Maybe I missed something, but from what I can tell, it seems entirely possible that there's a highly advanced AI system which has been designed to carefully chart and limit the course of each human's life within the world of Psycho-Pass. Many of its "suggestions" may well be hard-and-fast "law". For example, only those with high potential for multiple disciplines, such as Akane, seem to have much flexibility when it comes to determining their course in life.

Now, of course, you can only blame an AI system so much because it was ultimately designed by humans (or a human, at least). Nonetheless, it's not hard to conceive of an AI that acts as a virtually unquestioned societal Supervisor. For all we know, the Sibyl System may be exactly that (and in fact, the way the characters talk about Sibyl suggests to me that this is what it is).
All inspectors have that choice. Expect a sob-story from Ginoza explaining why he'd trust Sybil over his own and/or Masaoka's judgement.
I believe they're taking the Sybil's data analysis quite seriously and choosing to not question it.
Considering Shinya says, "You were able to put justice before you duty", Ginoza says, "So, you're saying that you made the right decision at the time. Is that your conclusion, Inspector Tsunemori?", I don't see how you can pass this off as merely a rookie mistake of "accidently" questioning Sybil.
It seems every character is aware Akane will question Sybil's "suggestions", but rather than advising her to be careful for choosing such path, a few of them are rooting for her.
Should I start finding quotes from the doctor and Masaoka, to further drive they are allowed to question Sybil suggestions? I think there are a couple in there...

Also, is it actually illegal to employ a latent criminal or just frowned upon? I think this answer will probably prove who's actually correct on the Sybil system.
EDIT: Whoops, I meant to ask whether Sybil decides what to do with latent criminals, or society. But it seems society is the answer, and in fact Kagari was given the choice of isolation or work as a dog. Sybil had no say in whether to expend his life or not.

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A couple points:
1. There have been AIs in fiction that were capable of emotion. Data and Lore of Star Trek are prominent examples here.

2. Even if Sibyl lacks empathy, maybe people themselves just don't care. Or, in fact, that might be part of the appeal of Sibyl to some folks. In real life, a lot of people think that judges tend to be too lenient when passing out sentences to convicted criminals (and in fairness, there are definitely cases where I can see why people would think that). I can see many people thinking "Finally, a computerized judge that won't be swayed by some bleeding-heart sob story; finally, criminals will get the sentences that they deserve".
1. True, but that's speculation on whether this world has this, and whether Sybil has it. I don't think it does, and there's nothing that suggest as such, at the moment (point it out if it was hinted somewhere).
2. Well yeah, that is kinda the point of Sybil. Remove all bias.

In fact, Sybil seems more like an optimisation tool, (statistically?) determining whether people will benefit to society or not. This is why people argue it's still the user's choice on what to do with such information.
Episode 3 explores the issue with exploiting the Hue assessment for work efficiency. Time, (money?), and resources.
Finding the culprit is a waste of productivity time. Murdered workers are an expendable resource (or in fact, humans in general are considered expendable in this world?). Money...? It's sanctioned by the government and time is money?

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
As for Akane not being locked up, maybe the system gives some leeway for raw rookies. Or maybe those with high potential are given certain allowances that others aren't (notice how Shinya's home doesn't seem to have the same neat holographic technology that Akane's does - Is that because Shinya doesn't want it, or is that because the system doesn't deem Shinya as worthy of the same benefits that Akane enjoys?)
I don't think you're talking about the Sybil system here. I don't think it's been implied Sybil system controls the city's finances, residential allocation, etc (but we'll wait and see?). There was a passing mention of a government body (that's why the factory exists in the first place). Society deems latent criminals as low as dogs. Dogs don't need fancy things, and probably considered a waste of money (well, excluding fancy dressed up dogs owned by rich people...).

Speaking of dogs, I saw the mention of Blade Runner as an inspiration, and noticed no animals in this show...Animals are possibly extinct?
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Old 2012-10-27, 20:46   Link #92
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^I fully agree. All the Sibyl system does is give people a bunch of numbers and grades to work with, as well as a recommendation. The reason everything's so messed up is due to what people do with this information.
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Old 2012-10-27, 22:58   Link #93
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@Quadratic and Dengar

I considered making point-by-point replies to you, but I felt it would be quicker and (hopefully) more effective to simply get to what I think is the crux of our disagreement.

What I find highly disagreeable about the positions you both seem to be taking is that you're acting like the Sibyl system is just 100% flawless and it can't be held accountable at all for any social injustice we've seen in this show.

And frankly, that strikes me as a bit of an extremist position. It makes me think of the old NRA line of "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Ergo, you can't blame gun violence on guns.

Admittedly, there is a kernel of logic to that. Yes, guns have to be used improperly by humans in order to cause more harm than good. Nonetheless, the very existence of guns makes certain types of violence (particularly lethal types at that) possible when it would otherwise not be possible.


Even if the Sibyl system is just spitting out suggestions, and it's totally 100% up to humans to decide what to do with them, the Sibyl system itself makes certain types of social injustice possible that would otherwise not be possible (similar to the gun and certain types of violence).

The most obvious example of this is, of course, Kagari being condemned from the age of five years old to either be used as a dog or be left in isolation. That does not happen without a Sibyl system in place.

The Sybil system might not be the only reason it happens, but it is an essential part of the reason for it happening.

Even if humans don't always have to go with Sybil's recommendations, those recommendations obviously carry considerable weight, and in some cases they doom people.


The Sibyl System itself deserves at least some blame for the societal problems faced by the world of Psycho-Pass, just like guns deserve at least some blame for gun violence.
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Old 2012-10-27, 23:16   Link #94
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^ well I would agree more with Triple_R in the assessment that certain things could not have happened without the SYBIL system in place. just like the gun analogy ( with a grain of salt ; remembering the stabbing spree in Akihabara a few years back).

True, Human judgement still has the final say in the SYBIL world and i think the show never disputes that, but you will be surprised on how SHEEP-LIKE the human masses are. WE ARE ALL PRODUCT OF OUR AGE AND WORLD. Even all of us here, you will be surprised on how much your way of thinking has been shaped by this world, and how little intellectual freedom you actually have. (You are watching anime aren't you). It is a an Ultra-rare and special Person indeed who sees beyond his current system/life/culture, and those are the world mover and changers we see in history like Galileo, Newton, Einstein etc..

It is easier for us watchers to condemn and criticize ( rightly or wrongly), or even see the flaws in SYBIL since we're on the outside.

on another note we don't really know yet the full extent and capabilities and how long & deeply ingrained SYBIL has been in their culture.
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Old 2012-10-28, 04:00   Link #95
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The sibyl system didn't make the people into sheep though. I mean people irl are sheepy enough as is.

That kind of sounds like, for example, the bullying what happened in this episode wasn't the employees fault, the system allowed them to do it, so it's all the system's fault for making it possible, and the employees are blameless.

Or it was the system that made the rapist rape.

I'm not saying this IS what you said, I doubt you'd say something like that. But this IS the logical conclusion you arrive at if you follow the train of logic that says the sibyl system is at fault. Basically, people wouldn't be killing people if it weren't for the existence of guns.
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Old 2012-10-28, 04:40   Link #96
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@Quadratic and Dengar

I considered making point-by-point replies to you, but I felt it would be quicker and (hopefully) more effective to simply get to what I think is the crux of our disagreement.

What I find highly disagreeable about the positions you both seem to be taking is that you're acting like the Sibyl system is just 100% flawless and it can't be held accountable at all for any social injustice we've seen in this show.

And frankly, that strikes me as a bit of an extremist position. It makes me think of the old NRA line of "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Ergo, you can't blame gun violence on guns.

Admittedly, there is a kernel of logic to that. Yes, guns have to be used improperly by humans in order to cause more harm than good. Nonetheless, the very existence of guns makes certain types of violence (particularly lethal types at that) possible when it would otherwise not be possible.


Even if the Sibyl system is just spitting out suggestions, and it's totally 100% up to humans to decide what to do with them, the Sibyl system itself makes certain types of social injustice possible that would otherwise not be possible (similar to the gun and certain types of violence).

The most obvious example of this is, of course, Kagari being condemned from the age of five years old to either be used as a dog or be left in isolation. That does not happen without a Sibyl system in place.

The Sybil system might not be the only reason it happens, but it is an essential part of the reason for it happening.

Even if humans don't always have to go with Sybil's recommendations, those recommendations obviously carry considerable weight, and in some cases they doom people.


The Sibyl System itself deserves at least some blame for the societal problems faced by the world of Psycho-Pass, just like guns deserve at least some blame for gun violence.
While I agree with you with regards to the injustices we've witnessed, I have to ask: what do we do after we blame Sybil?

I think it has the potential for being a wonderful tool. If it existed, it wouldn't be responsible to just ignore it and pretend we didn't know, couldn't know all it could tell us.

So, while I'm all for stricter guidelines in its uses (treating the hue as a kind of medical secret, for example...) and demanding better treatment of people who're only "guilty" of high CC without ever harming anyone, I'm not sure what you'd recommend.
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Old 2012-10-28, 04:47   Link #97
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@Quadratic and Dengar

I considered making point-by-point replies to you, but I felt it would be quicker and (hopefully) more effective to simply get to what I think is the crux of our disagreement.

What I find highly disagreeable about the positions you both seem to be taking is that you're acting like the Sibyl system is just 100% flawless and it can't be held accountable at all for any social injustice we've seen in this show.

And frankly, that strikes me as a bit of an extremist position. It makes me think of the old NRA line of "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Ergo, you can't blame gun violence on guns.

Admittedly, there is a kernel of logic to that. Yes, guns have to be used improperly by humans in order to cause more harm than good. Nonetheless, the very existence of guns makes certain types of violence (particularly lethal types at that) possible when it would otherwise not be possible.


Even if the Sibyl system is just spitting out suggestions, and it's totally 100% up to humans to decide what to do with them, the Sibyl system itself makes certain types of social injustice possible that would otherwise not be possible (similar to the gun and certain types of violence).
Truthfully, I think we're actually on the same side, but humoring ourselves into thinking the other is 100% on one side of the fence when we really know this isn't the truly the case .

Anyway, no I don't think the Sybil system is 100% perfect, but in my opinion the Sybil system doesn't bring in any new issues that this world currently faces. All it does is change the balance of different issues.

I highly disagree with your statement "the very existence of guns makes certain types of violence (particularly lethal types at that) possible when it would otherwise not be possible.".
What exactly isn't possible without guns?
Bows and arrows were invented to be more efficient at killing, over swords and axes etc, because of the increase in personal safety (lets not bother arguing the situational disadvantages).
Guns were created because they were a more efficient tool at killing individuals over bows and arrows.
Guns are nothing more than an evolution of weaponry.
It's the people's ingenuity that brought forth ideas like self-defense, control by fear etc.
If guns didn't exist, then they'd just go back to bows and arrows, or create some new variant that doesn't use "gun" technology but does nearly the exact same thing and the same issues persists except swap the word "gun" with whatever new gizmo they come up with.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Even if humans don't always have to go with Sybil's recommendations, those recommendations obviously carry considerable weight, and in some cases they doom people.
And there are considerable weight for not following those recommendations.
I don't think this is worth arguing over again, since this is a what-if argument that keeps going in circles.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The most obvious example of this is, of course, Kagari being condemned from the age of five years old to either be used as a dog or be left in isolation. That does not happen without a Sibyl system in place.

The Sybil system might not be the only reason it happens, but it is an essential part of the reason for it happening.

The Sibyl System itself deserves at least some blame for the societal problems faced by the world of Psycho-Pass, just like guns deserve at least some blame for gun violence.
A long time ago, education was made to...well, educate people. Of course, being educated and being intelligent aren't always the same thing.
Now education has a grades system, and employers won't employ you if you don't meet a certain grade. That's because it's a waste of time and money employing someone who will probably fail at a job because they're not smart enough.

A long time ago, you could be employed in some security job and the employers had to trust you based on their own 'gut instinct' and/or a believe the words from a network of trusted people. Tough luck to the employer if you're actually not trustworthy (To anyone who reads this, 'trusted' is not the same as 'trustworthy').
Nowadays, employers may do age checks, criminal background checks, employment records who use these to predict whether you have enough experience to be trusted, have had a clean record long enough to determine you being able to stay 'clean', AND still use a network of trusted people to see if others trusted you. Now there's a decrease in risk in employing you compared to before.

An unfair world, right? A social injustice, that stops people from certain employment, which wouldn't happen if people didn't invent grades and people didn't have access to history records.
That's our world, right there. An evolution of efficiency and safety.

Now extend this to the future:
In my security job example, now they are given a tool that predicts their criminal behavior prior to committing any crimes, without waiting for years to see whether they are safe enough to employ or trusting them from the words of trusted network of people whether you are trusted for a job or not.

Now people have caught on what a "wonderful" tool this is and expands it to the entirety of society so they stop wasting time, money and resources on things that have a low potential of succeeding, and this is the world you end up in.

What's the heart of the issue they tried to solve? Increase safety and efficiency.
What existing issues became larger? Reduction of equality and fairness.

So now it seems we've reached an issue where safety & efficiency (please note, I'm referring to the safety of society overall) aren't on the same side of the weighting scale as equality and fairness.
Is it tipping too far into safety & efficiency? Because that seems to be Sybil's job and it seems society has decide to build itself around it.
A world built around substantiated numbers (Sybil) versus invisible numbers & dice rolls (human instinct & intuition)? Yes, I'm intrigued and like how this show is exploring the issues in this new world. There aren't new issues, just a change in weight of problems.


On a darker note (excuse my dark mindset), to be honest, in the hypothetical situation where the world starts critically running out of resources, I highly expect a Sybil-like system (a number crunching system) would be implemented because the world doesn't, and won't, play nice, and solving dire worldwide problems requires promoting and protecting bright individuals to help solve these problems and not waste money and resources on accommodating criminals who impede the solution makers.
Of course, I wouldn't want to live in that kind of world because I enjoy living in a world with (relatively) sufficient resources, working in a job that doesn't help solve world critical issues, and accepts my average intelligence.
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Old 2012-10-28, 05:30   Link #98
garbage
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The sibyl system didn't make the people into sheep though. I mean people irl are sheepy enough as is.
never in my post have I stated nor implied that SYBIL made the people into sheep. And the 2nd part of your statement here is exactly what i'm saying. Most people are sheep. IRL.

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post

That kind of sounds like, for example, the bullying what happened in this episode wasn't the employees fault, the system allowed them to do it, so it's all the system's fault for making it possible, and the employees are blameless.

Or it was the system that made the rapist rape.
again your putting word in my mouth,but if you would kindly read again, never in the whole of my post or even previous posts have I stated or even implied that it was ALL the systems fault ( in this case SYBIL )
in fact i agree with you the SYBIL does nothing more than crunch numbers, and yet this can be dangerous by itself, It empowers those who would abuse it since it gives them reason/and power just like any unjust LAW in our current era, same reason why the supreme court is extra careful setting up precedent. Same with Guns, sure it's not the gun that kills people,but the one using it, ( I even gave an example of that AKIHABARA killing spree that was done with a knife, and a truck ) BUT it makes it easier to kill too. seriously do you think real life dictators/warlords or wannabes cold have done what they did if they did not have access to modern firearms? so my point stands that that system is dangerous in the world, especially with all the sheep around ^^.

why do you think there's even Gun control laws, or even dangerous drug laws, or even anti monopoly/cartel laws. If you put all fault on "humans" failing to judge every single happenings you would be sorely disappointed. Most would just go with the flow, SHEEP, others would just look for how it would benefit themselves, to hell with the others. Other would not even try to think.

which makes me wonder, how this SYBIL system ever got set-up in the first place, where the people during that time sleeping? the hawks of liberty & freedom gone? social networks closed ? no students rallying to prevent it's implementation? the UN disbanded ?( after all its definitely anti Human rights, anti child rights ) or was there a great need/world-wide catastrophe that set all those concerns aside. Or is SYBIL implemented in just one country by an authoritarian regime. Well we don't know, the anime haven't said anything about that yet...

as some men of note has said "eternal vigilance is the price of freedom"
- by : Ida Wells, Thomas Jefferson, Wendell Phillips etc > seems people are not entirely sure who started it ^^

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I'm not saying this IS what you said, I doubt you'd say something like that. But this IS the logical conclusion you arrive at if you follow the train of logic that says the sibyl system is at fault. Basically, people wouldn't be killing people if it weren't for the existence of guns.
I don't quite see how that could be a LOGICAL CONCLUSION since your premise is flawed. I never said SYBIL is wholly at fault, but it is definitely flawed. or at least it's current accepted mode of implementation is.
again see above..


oops sorry became a bit too long
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Old 2012-10-28, 06:03   Link #99
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post

On a darker note (excuse my dark mindset), to be honest, in the hypothetical situation where the world starts critically running out of resources, I highly expect a Sybil-like system (a number crunching system) would be implemented because the world doesn't, and won't, play nice, and solving dire worldwide problems requires promoting and protecting bright individuals to help solve these problems and not waste money and resources on accommodating criminals who impede the solution makers.
Of course, I wouldn't want to live in that kind of world because I enjoy living in a world with (relatively) sufficient resources, working in a job that doesn't help solve world critical issues, and accepts my average intelligence.
Well, it's not like they're all geniuses. A lot of work has to be done, and there are only so many A-rankers.

And I wonder why the manager got his job? Did Sybil overestimate him, or did it just decide the job wasn't that critical and could be given to that asshole?
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Old 2012-10-28, 13:25   Link #100
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The sibyl system didn't make the people into sheep though. I mean people irl are sheepy enough as is.

That kind of sounds like, for example, the bullying what happened in this episode wasn't the employees fault, the system allowed them to do it, so it's all the system's fault for making it possible, and the employees are blameless.

Or it was the system that made the rapist rape.

I'm not saying this IS what you said, I doubt you'd say something like that. But this IS the logical conclusion you arrive at if you follow the train of logic that says the sibyl system is at fault. Basically, people wouldn't be killing people if it weren't for the existence of guns.
It's not an either-or scenario. Yes, people are ultimately responsible for their actions. Nonetheless, courts have long recognized "mitigating factors", at least when it comes to sentencing. The courts are generally sympathetic to how certain situations are powderkegs that naturally lead to bad behavior/poor judgement more than healthier situations do.

Blame isn't something that needs to be placed on just one actor, or factor, behind a bad situation. Typically, blame should be spread around.


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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
While I agree with you with regards to the injustices we've witnessed, I have to ask: what do we do after we blame Sybil?

I think it has the potential for being a wonderful tool. If it existed, it wouldn't be responsible to just ignore it and pretend we didn't know, couldn't know all it could tell us.

So, while I'm all for stricter guidelines in its uses (treating the hue as a kind of medical secret, for example...) and demanding better treatment of people who're only "guilty" of high CC without ever harming anyone, I'm not sure what you'd recommend.
Remove Sibyl's recommendation feature. Turn it into a pure information system, that simply gives governments, businesses, and law enforcement agencies basic data to work with. But it's 100% human judgment/discretion at how that data is utilized.

As long as you have Sibyl giving out recommendations, it feeds into the natural human compunction to "take the path of least resistance/responsibility". It's too easy for humans to just go along with Sibyl since that frees them from the burden of having to truly consider and think about their decisions.

Also, as you alluded to, make things a bit more discreet. In real life, we tend to put a very high value on medical confidentiality. There's good reasons for that. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't extend to psychological health.

The only people that should have access to one's psychiatric measurements are parents/legal guardians, law enforcement agencies, employers doing a background check on you, and educators if given approval through a parental waiver. Some secrets are obviously harder to keep than others (you can't really hide the more severe cases of autism, for example) but we should err on the side of privacy, imo.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
Anyway, no I don't think the Sybil system is 100% perfect, but in my opinion the Sybil system doesn't bring in any new issues that this world currently faces.
I disagree. I do think it brings in some new issues. We don't have supercomputers giving these sorts of wide-ranging, massively life-impacting recommendations to businesses, law enforcement agencies, etc... in real life.

It also seems to me that the Sibyl system has seriously undermined the very concept of medical confidentiality. Again, I see no reason why psychiatric health should be viewed as any less private a matter than one's physiological health. And yet such privacy doesn't seem to exist in the world of Psycho-Pass.


Quote:

I highly disagree with your statement "the very existence of guns makes certain types of violence (particularly lethal types at that) possible when it would otherwise not be possible.".
What exactly isn't possible without guns?
Joe Schmoe picking up a weapon and killing somebody with ease with it.

Bows and arrows actually take skill and training to be effective lethal weapons.

Now, I'm not saying that the world's most elite gun-users aren't highly skilled and trained marksmen. They are, and they deserve credit for that.

But guns don't have that same "high bar" for lethal use that the classic bow and arrow does.

Virtually anybody can pick up a gun and kill somebody with it on their very first attempt at using it. Such a thing is far less likely with a bow and arrow.

The benefit of this, for the bow and arrow, is that in the midst of getting that necessary archery training, people learn the importance of safe and proper use of the bow and arrow. But you can purchase and effectively use a gun without ever getting training like this. That makes guns an uniquely problematic weapon from a societal perspective, imo.

Now, I'm not saying that guns should be outright outlawed, but I do think that America probably would benefit from more effective gun regulations.


As for close-range weapons (like knifes and swords) they at least require people to be gutsy enough to get within arm's reach of their intended target.


Quote:
And there are considerable weight for not following those recommendations.
No there isn't. There's clearly more weight for following the recommendations. If Akane does everything "by the book" (i.e. by Sibyl) nobody is going to question that. She is going to at least get questioned if she goes against a Sibyl recommendation though.

Again, doing things the Sibyl way is the path of least resistance, so the Sibyl way carries an inherent edge over other alternatives. It does undermine the likelihood of humans practicing good personal judgement.


Quote:
A long time ago, education was made to...well, educate people. Of course, being educated and being intelligent aren't always the same thing.
Now education has a grades system, and employers won't employ you if you don't meet a certain grade. That's because it's a waste of time and money employing someone who will probably fail at a job because they're not smart enough.

A long time ago, you could be employed in some security job and the employers had to trust you based on their own 'gut instinct' and/or a believe the words from a network of trusted people. Tough luck to the employer if you're actually not trustworthy (To anyone who reads this, 'trusted' is not the same as 'trustworthy').
Nowadays, employers may do age checks, criminal background checks, employment records who use these to predict whether you have enough experience to be trusted, have had a clean record long enough to determine you being able to stay 'clean', AND still use a network of trusted people to see if others trusted you. Now there's a decrease in risk in employing you compared to before.

An unfair world, right?
Somewhat. But at the end of the day, hiring decisions are placed in the hands of people, who (at least as far as I know) operate without supercomputers telling them "Hire this guy" or "Hire this girl".

Also, I think you underestimate the role that old factors like nepotism and "who you know" plays. Also, specific grades aren't always as important as simply having the pertinent degree(s).

We would probably agree that society has gone too far in using the Post-Secondary education system as a massive glorified screening process for employers. There's some jobs that nowadays require degrees that, frankly, you shouldn't need degrees in order to get hired for those jobs.

Nonetheless, a lot of jobs really do require the sort of learning that is probably best gained from an University or College setting, so I don't think that the system is entirely unfair or broken. It just needs to be tweaked, and injected with what I'm tempted to call common sense.

I also think that school grades are a reasonably good measurement of intelligence plus work ethic, of inherent skill plus effort. I think it does a decent job of balancing these values, and giving most people at least some chance (effort is all about choice; average intelligence plus impeccable effort will usually lead to a decent life).


Quote:
On a darker note (excuse my dark mindset), to be honest, in the hypothetical situation where the world starts critically running out of resources, I highly expect a Sybil-like system (a number crunching system) would be implemented because the world doesn't, and won't, play nice, and solving dire worldwide problems requires promoting and protecting bright individuals to help solve these problems and not waste money and resources on accommodating criminals who impede the solution makers.
I don't have a problem with that. Desperate times often call for desperate measures. I accept that.

Should the world of Psycho-Pass have some eye-opening historical background that gave rise to it (i.e. a truly desperate situation that lead to it), then that will change my perspective of it to be sure. But I haven't seen any such evidence of that yet.


Quote:
Of course, I wouldn't want to live in that kind of world because I enjoy living in a world with (relatively) sufficient resources, working in a job that doesn't help solve world critical issues, and accepts my average intelligence.
I probably wouldn't want to live in that kind of world either.
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