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Old 2012-10-28, 15:58   Link #101
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Somewhat. But at the end of the day, hiring decisions are placed in the hands of people, who (at least as far as I know) operate without supercomputers telling them "Hire this guy" or "Hire this girl".
Uhhh... I have no idea whether this actually happens or not. But I haven't seen the system do anything of the sort. All I've seen it do is grade people. The same way schools and universities do right now. And it gives us the Crime Coefficients. I mean you don't want people with a high chance of becoming criminal near children. Or money. Or confidential information. Or powertools. Or metal. I mean, it makes perfect sense right?
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Old 2012-10-28, 16:35   Link #102
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Remove Sibyl's recommendation feature. Turn it into a pure information system, that simply gives governments, businesses, and law enforcement agencies basic data to work with. But it's 100% human judgment/discretion at how that data is utilized.

As long as you have Sibyl giving out recommendations, it feeds into the natural human compunction to "take the path of least resistance/responsibility". It's too easy for humans to just go along with Sibyl since that frees them from the burden of having to truly consider and think about their decisions.
Even if Sybil doesn't spell them out, there's always going to be recommendations. That's how it is when you have hard numbers. Heck, just look at speed limits. For the most part, it's "don't go faster than x km/h", not "use you judgment to not go too fast".

Besides, considering who they hire to hold their guns, "I can shoot" will automatically translate to "I'm bloody well going to shoot".
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Old 2012-10-28, 17:50   Link #103
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Uhhh... I have no idea whether this actually happens or not. But I haven't seen the system do anything of the sort.
Your downplaying of Sibyl is starting to get a little bit ridiculous now.

Fact: Sibyl strictly limits people's career options (Akane's two female friends made this clear in Episode 2)

Fact: Sibyl recommends workplaces to individuals (the Factory boss of Episode 3 made this clear)


So Sibyl plays a huge role in who gets hired and where. And it's role isn't in just giving information to people. It clearly goes beyond that.


Quote:
All I've seen it do is grade people. The same way schools and universities do right now. And it gives us the Crime Coefficients.
Schools and universities generally don't give you insta-jobs wherever you want (Akane), or force people to strictly limit their employment options (Akane's friends). If you simply manage to get an University degree in the right field (poor, poor Arts students... ), you have a shot. You don't need to be an "A" or anything like that. It helps, but it's usually not a deal-maker or a deal-breaker, at least based on what I've seen, read, and heard about.


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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Even if Sybil doesn't spell them out, there's always going to be recommendations. That's how it is when you have hard numbers.
Sure, but I'd rather leave those recommendations to human beings who (hopefully) have empathy, and likely a better ability to account for unique contexts.

Hell, your speed limit example fits perfectly here. Let's say you're driving 20 over the speed limit because you just got a call that your wife is giving birth. A human cop may say "Ok, we'll give you an exception here. Keep going, no ticket today, and congratulations!". A machine is more likely to not make a reasonable exception here.
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Old 2012-10-28, 19:03   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Schools and universities generally don't give you insta-jobs wherever you want (Akane), or force people to strictly limit their employment options (Akane's friends). If you simply manage to get an University degree in the right field (poor, poor Arts students... ), you have a shot. You don't need to be an "A" or anything like that. It helps, but it's usually not a deal-maker or a deal-breaker, at least based on what I've seen, read, and heard about.
I have to disagree with you here...
I don't know about your country, but there are reason in mine (at least till two years ago) you want to get in to University...
You get an A, then you will get whatever job you wish, whatever you wish...
There are limitation still, like you can't be a doctor if you are an IT bachelor, but you got my point...

On the other hand, you get a bad mark, you will only get blue collar work...
Period.

Unless you make your own job of course...

Quote:
Sure, but I'd rather leave those recommendations to human beings who (hopefully) have empathy, and likely a better ability to account for unique contexts.

Hell, your speed limit example fits perfectly here. Let's say you're driving 20 over the speed limit because you just got a call that your wife is giving birth. A human cop may say "Ok, we'll give you an exception here. Keep going, no ticket today, and congratulations!". A machine is more likely to not make a reasonable exception here.
So you are saying that we can't have speedometer because it doesn't have empathy?

Base on your statement, the speedometer recognize that the man speed over the limit, but the police choose not to take action...
Now in to dominator, it recognize that the woman's CC in episode 1 is over the limit, but Akane choose not to take the shot...
As far as I see, nothing is vastly different here, just a much more polished tool to help human daily life...
I mean, a cowboy will also afraid of speedometer as they don't understand it and though it will limit their freedom...
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Old 2012-10-28, 19:38   Link #105
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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
I have to disagree with you here...
I don't know about your country, but there are reason in mine (at least till two years ago) you want to get in to University...
You get an A, then you will get whatever job you wish, whatever you wish...
There are limitation still, like you can't be a doctor if you are an IT bachelor, but you got my point...
That limitation kind of undercuts your point, actually.

Akane was able to go to everything from the Ministry of the Economy to the Ministry of Technology to the Public Safety Bureau (as a Police Inspector, essentially). And there may well have been more besides. There's a considerable range amongst these three disciplines (Economists, Engineers, and Police Chiefs are three pretty different professions, just like Doctors and IT specialists are two pretty different professions).

Anyway, in my country, job interviews still matter, to the best of my knowledge. A good, applicable resume gets you the interview, but how you handle the interview is important.


Quote:
So you are saying that we can't have speedometer because it doesn't have empathy?
Of course I'm not saying that.

But speedometers don't give out spoken recommendations like "Give that driver a speeding ticket." or "Give that driver a breathalyzer test." or "That driver is breaking the speed limit by over 40%. Arrest the driver and put him in jail for the night."

That's a key difference between the speedometer and the Dominator that you're glossing over here...

And you know what? This hits home personally for me. A couple weeks ago I was driving to work in a nasty rainstorm. Partly due to that (and construction workers not being active in the bad weather) I missed the fact that I was driving through a Construction Zone. I ended up breaking the speed limit for a construction area, but still going below what the speed limit would normally be. I received a ticket for that, but the police officer lowered it after I explained my case to him. Would that had happened if a Sibyl system had told him "Give that driver the standard penalty for driving over the speed limit in a construction zone"? Personally, I doubt it.

This is part of the reason why I want police officers to act on their own personal judgement, taking each case in full context, and not just going along with what some uncaring machine tells them to do.
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Old 2012-10-28, 20:17   Link #106
orion
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

And you know what? This hits home personally for me. A couple weeks ago I was driving to work in a nasty rainstorm. Partly due to that (and construction workers not being active in the bad weather) I missed the fact that I was driving through a Construction Zone. I ended up breaking the speed limit for a construction area, but still going below what the speed limit would normally be. I received a ticket for that, but the police officer lowered it after I explained my case to him. Would that had happened if a Sibyl system had told him "Give that driver the standard penalty for driving over the speed limit in a construction zone"? Personally, I doubt it.

This is part of the reason why I want police officers to act on their own personal judgement, taking each case in full context, and not just going along with what some uncaring machine tells them to do.
You were just lucky. In my area, you would have gotten a ticket and had to get a lawyer to discuss your case with the DA to bargain it down. That law is a money generator for certain areas along with the speed traps.
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Old 2012-10-28, 20:44   Link #107
MarkS00N
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That limitation kind of undercuts your point, actually.

Akane was able to go to everything from the Ministry of the Economy to the Ministry of Technology to the Public Safety Bureau (as a Police Inspector, essentially). And there may well have been more besides. There's a considerable range amongst these three disciplines (Economists, Engineers, and Police Chiefs are three pretty different professions, just like Doctors and IT specialists are two pretty different professions).

Anyway, in my country, job interviews still matter, to the best of my knowledge. A good, applicable resume gets you the interview, but how you handle the interview is important.
I think for the Sybil system, Akane is kinda like Leonardo da Vinci that able to excel at any field given to her, thus she able go everywhere she wish for. Or the working system grading for Sybil is like faculty system in my university, where if you qualified to the number 1 faculty, you are qualified to any faculty whether it is bussiness, art, tech, or health...

Quote:
Of course I'm not saying that.

But speedometers don't give out spoken recommendations like "Give that driver a speeding ticket." or "Give that driver a breathalyzer test." or "That driver is breaking the speed limit by over 40%. Arrest the driver and put him in jail for the night."

That's a key difference between the speedometer and the Dominator that you're glossing over here...

And you know what? This hits home personally for me. A couple weeks ago I was driving to work in a nasty rainstorm. Partly due to that (and construction workers not being active in the bad weather) I missed the fact that I was driving through a Construction Zone. I ended up breaking the speed limit for a construction area, but still going below what the speed limit would normally be. I received a ticket for that, but the police officer lowered it after I explained my case to him. Would that had happened if a Sibyl system had told him "Give that driver the standard penalty for driving over the speed limit in a construction zone"? Personally, I doubt it.

This is part of the reason why I want police officers to act on their own personal judgement, taking each case in full context, and not just going along with what some uncaring machine tells them to do.
Speedometer doesn't talk, but it has red bar that give you sign that you are in dangerous speed...
It doesn't give you lower penalty, it simply tell you are 'wrong' because you pass the 'limit'...
Because it doesn't talk or change mode, doesn't mean it less merciless than dominator...
As I said, the one who decide your penalty isn't the speedometer or the dominator...
Both only tell 'you are wrong', the one who decide the penalty is the police or the enforcer...

The show has shown us that it is indeed the case. The strict police is Ginzo (glasses dude), the reasoning police is Akane, etc.
Dominator is simply tool and how people see the tool are differ to one another (based on episode 3): Ginzo believe it is the only and must evidence for crime, Masaoka doesn't thinks so, while Koagami simply think it as gun...

The problem is, based on episode 1, the enforcer seems doesn't have way to control the gun mode, but are you sure you won't pointing a gun to a terrorist that try to blow himself and you up? (the woman hold a lighter on spilled oil, which might trigger explosion)
Yes, you can talk to them, to reason with them, and that is what Akane did...
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Old 2012-10-28, 22:46   Link #108
garbage
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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
Speedometer doesn't talk, but it has red bar that give you sign that you are in dangerous speed...
It doesn't give you lower penalty, it simply tell you are 'wrong' because you pass the 'limit'...
Because it doesn't talk or change mode, doesn't mean it less merciless than dominator...
As I said, the one who decide your penalty isn't the speedometer or the dominator...
Both only tell 'you are wrong', the one who decide the penalty is the police or the enforcer...
excuse me sir, but i never thought ever that the red in speedometers or any gauges for that matter means "WRONG." that is a subjective decision no machine currently has that capability. RED historically an culturally is just an indication of danger. it's up to the one looking at it what to do about it
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Old 2012-10-28, 23:06   Link #109
MarkS00N
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excuse me sir, but i never thought ever that the red in speedometers or any gauges for that matter means "WRONG." that is a subjective decision no machine currently has that capability. RED historically an culturally is just an indication of danger. it's up to the one looking at it what to do about it
That is why I said 'wrong' with apostrophe, for it is subjective...

Dangerous is 'wrong' for safety enforcer for dangerous mean the condition is beyond acceptable limit, thus the red bar...
You aren't suppose to be in that situation...
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Old 2012-10-28, 23:09   Link #110
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Anyway, in my country, job interviews still matter, to the best of my knowledge. A good, applicable resume gets you the interview, but how you handle the interview is important.
Funny that you mentioned job interviews. Veteran Financial Times columinst Lucy Kellaway had some choice words about their supposed effectiveness.

The question with interviews is why we bother
Quote:
By Lucy Kellaway
Financial Times (Oct 7, 2012)

...For the past 2,000 years and more we have been interviewing people, but far from getting better at it, we're getting worse. The earliest example of the genre I can find is in the New Testament where Jesus, who at the time was recruiting for the position of disciple, kept the process short and snappy with a single question: "What do you seek?"

Modern interviewers make much heavier weather of it. In the past decade or so everyone has become hooked on asking things like "tell me about the time you showed courage". Or "tell me about a time you learnt from failure". The poor candidate has then to spit out a rehearsed, almost certainly fabricated answer, while the bored interviewer nods sagely, a process that is most unpleasant for both sides and leaves no one any the wiser.

The latest craze for oddball questions is even worse. Why are manhole covers round? How many piano tuners are there in the entire world? Google is also largely to blame for this craze, but now half the big employers in the United States are following, figuring that if they ask things that the hapless candidate can't prepare for, that the answers will somehow be more telling.

The website Glassdoor.com has composed a list of daftest of all daft questions, with Goldman Sachs heading at the top. It asks prospective bankers: if you were shrunk to the size of a pencil and put in a blender how would you get out? Such clever-dick questions can only prove one thing: whether the candidate is any good at clever-dick answers.

...The reason that no one has found a good way to interview is that there isn't one. Study after study shows this charade to which we are all so addicted is not much better than picking people at random. The only reason we persist is that we are all way overconfident of our ability to judge others.
Of course, she's just a journalist, not a scientific expert in the field of human resource management, but Ms Kellaway, I find, has a knack for hitting the nail square on its head.

Between unreliable human judgment and a machine-calculated probability backed with the best data science has to offer, I don't think it's hard to see why a future society would choose the latter over the former.
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Old 2012-10-28, 23:42   Link #111
garbage
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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post

Speedometer doesn't talk, but it has red bar that give you sign that you are in dangerous speed...
It doesn't give you lower penalty, it simply tell you are 'wrong' because you pass the 'limit'...
Because it doesn't talk or change mode, doesn't mean it less merciless than dominator...
As I said, the one who decide your penalty isn't the speedometer or the dominator...
Both only tell 'you are wrong', the one who decide the penalty is the police or the enforcer...

The speedometer gives you a warning when your in the red of possible danger ( in fact it's not very reliable in the sense that it doesn't take into consideration other factors like driver's condition, weather, type of road etc). IT DOES NOT GIVE ANY RECOMMENDATION AT ALL. and certainly doesn't tell you 'you are wrong' in fact a car only has one speedometer for all roads, and different roads have different speed limits. It's up to the police officers seeing you to decide if you are in the wrong based on different current relevant conditions. in fact you can be arrested for example, in a school zone even if you're not in the RED.

The Dominator decides for itself. sure the officer still has to pull the trigger, but i haven't seen any officer telling the Dominator what MODE to employ. It does that automatically BASED on the SYBIL reading of the target (or the threat level in case of inanimates). that is in fact more than a recommendation, that is already judgement.

I would have agreed to some of your statement but Speedometers. or regular gauges for that matter are just so different from the Sybil + Dominator system that its just so far fetch to compare the two.

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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
That is why I said 'wrong' with apostrophe, for it is subjective...

Dangerous is 'wrong' for safety enforcer for dangerous mean the condition is beyond acceptable limit, thus the red bar...
You aren't suppose to be in that situation...
again as above , red in speedometers means POSSIBLE danger. Being beyond acceptable limit, aren't suppose to be in that situation, are all subjective decisions by law enforcers and is not the speedometers call and definitely not the reason for the red line. those are dependent on current location and conditions ,see above. In fact police officers rarely use car speedometers in apprehending traffic violations, they have their own speed radar, and installed cameras.
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Old 2012-10-29, 00:49   Link #112
MarkS00N
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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
The speedometer gives you a warning when your in the red of possible danger ( in fact it's not very reliable in the sense that it doesn't take into consideration other factors like driver's condition, weather, type of road etc). IT DOES NOT GIVE ANY RECOMMENDATION AT ALL. and certainly doesn't tell you 'you are wrong' in fact a car only has one speedometer for all roads, and different roads have different speed limits. It's up to the police officers seeing you to decide if you are in the wrong based on different current relevant conditions. in fact you can be arrested for example, in a school zone even if you're not in the RED.

The Dominator decides for itself. sure the officer still has to pull the trigger, but i haven't seen any officer telling the Dominator what MODE to employ. It does that automatically BASED on the SYBIL reading of the target (or the threat level in case of inanimates). that is in fact more than a recommendation, that is already judgement.

I would have agreed to some of your statement but Speedometers. or regular gauges for that matter are just so different from the Sybil + Dominator system that its just so far fetch to compare the two.
I use speedometer because:
1) Triple_R (whom I reply to) and Anh_Minh (whom Triple_R reply to) use it
2) As analogy how Dominator is merely a tool, how Sybil System is merely a tool and doesn't have self-recognition as people accuse (for there are no such evident so far)

Yes it is grossly simplification to compare the two, but it is effective to show how unfair it is for people treat Sybil as failure while many things around us work similarly to Sybil system...

About the mode, I've post it before:
Quote:
The problem is, based on episode 1, the enforcer seems doesn't have way to control the gun mode, but are you sure you won't pointing a gun to a terrorist that try to blow himself and you up? (the woman hold a lighter on spilled oil, which might trigger explosion)
Yes, you can talk to them, to reason with them, and that is what Akane did...
They don't judge, they simply provide the enforcer tool suitable to situation they are in...

Quote:
Originally Posted by garbage View Post
red in speedometers means POSSIBLE danger. Being beyond acceptable limit, aren't suppose to be in that situation, are all subjective decisions by law enforcers and is not the speedometers call and definitely not the reason for the red line. those are dependent on current location and conditions ,see above. In fact police officers rarely use car speedometers in apprehending traffic violations, they have their own speed radar, and installed cameras.
The reason for me using speedometer is explained above...
Yes the police use their own speed radar, but it doesn't change the fact that they use such tool to determine you are 'wrong' or not...
There are reason why such tool beeping when you pass certain limit, because the tool need to tell the user that you have done 'wrong', you have pass the safe limit...
It does tell you are 'wrong' but through color and noise instead of "you are wrong" voice that dominator has...
And if you think it is a simple measurement tool, then it would be design like stopwatch with nothing but button to stop measurement or ruler which is a pure measurement...

Also, dominator doesn't judge you, it change mode base on how dangerous you POSSIBLY are for the user...
In episode 1, once the woman doesn't have the lighter, the dominator see the situation as no longer dangerous, thus revert back to paralyzer mode...

Though probably the term 'judgement' for us is different...
You seem to think it as social effect a certain act has while I think it as final act, the conclusion that exist at the end of acts chain...
If such is the case then we won't have any agreement on this issue...
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Old 2012-10-29, 01:42   Link #113
garbage
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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
It does tell you are 'wrong' but through color and noise instead of "you are wrong" voice that dominator has...
And if you think it is a simple measurement tool, then it would be design like stopwatch with nothing but button to stop measurement or ruler which is a pure measurement...
again, Speed Radars like speedometers never tell anyone "you're wrong" and yes in fact they ARE simple measuring tools. All it does is measure the speed of the target vehicle. that beep you are referring to is NOT A RECOMMENDATION OF WRONGNESS/CRIMINALITY. It will beep as much for a speeding getaway car as it would for a speeding ambulance. it's just a warning that a certain speed has been reached, in fact officers regularly adjust this threshold on the speed radar machine, depending on the location, as I've said different places have different speed limits.that's exactly the gist of what I'm saying SYBIL + DOMINATOR is far from being SIMPLE, it's all encompassing, like saying a five year old can never be a normal person because he is latent criminal. Or recommending execution of a target because he/she is beyond help and therapy. this is a FORCED ANALOGY, reducto ad absurdum. so yeah they are both machines and they both measure something, but Sybil does something after the measurement...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
2) As analogy how Dominator is merely a tool, how Sybil System is merely a tool and doesn't have self-recognition as people accuse (for there are no such evident so far)

Yes it is grossly simplification to compare the two, but it is effective to show how unfair it is for people treat Sybil as failure while many things around us work similarly to Sybil system...
I do get what you are saying that both are just Tools (I don't get what you mean by [self-recognition] though I'm pretty sure it was never presented as an AI), but that's not a very useful comparison to make by virtue of orders of degree of sophistication. it's like your comparing an aircraft carrier with a canoe, OK they both float and humans drive them. or hand held calculators and modern laptops, OK so both have these number 0-9 buttons and can solve math. see my earlier posts about dangerous tools/items and how it can facilitate injustice, and how others would just accept it and use it being just SHEEP. especially since it gives encompassing judgement about people.

Well i never said SYBIL is a failure, in fact i think it's one hell of a machine!, and quite an advancement, but i disagree with it's use and implementation.

And no i disagree that there are systems around us like SYBIL, education some say, NATs and other placement exams some others. but again degree of sophistication and encompassing implementation. and definitely not like speedometers and speed radars. It may seem similar but it's not, there are underlying issues that makes it different altogether. like checks and balances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
Though probably the term 'judgement' for us is different...
You seem to think it as social effect a certain act has while I think it as final act, the conclusion that exist at the end of acts chain...
If such is the case then we won't have any agreement on this issue...
I'm sorry sir i don't really understand what you're saying here if you will elaborate though
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:15   Link #114
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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
again, Speed Radars like speedometers never tell anyone "you're wrong" and yes in fact they ARE simple measuring tools. All it does is measure the speed of the target vehicle. that beep you are referring to is NOT A RECOMMENDATION OF WRONGNESS/CRIMINALITY. It will beep as much for a speeding getaway car as it would for a speeding ambulance. it's just a warning that a certain speed has been reached, in fact officers regularly adjust this threshold on the speed radar machine, depending on the location, as I've said different places have different speed limits.that's exactly the gist of what I'm saying SYBIL + DOMINATOR is far from being SIMPLE, it's all encompassing, like saying a five year old can never be a normal person because he is latent criminal. Or recommending execution of a target because he/she is beyond help and therapy. this is a FORCED ANALOGY, reducto ad absurdum. so yeah they are both machines and they both measure something, but Sybil does something after the measurement...
It isn't SIMPLE but it is still basically SIMILAR, a tool that help human to judge not the other way around...

Now let's change from speedometer to medical analysis...
If the blood check determine a baby has AIDS, what people think?
Whether the baby treated as human or not isn't come from diagnosis, but from the people that use the diagnosis as recommendation...

What we don't know in SYBIL is, whether SYBIL commands people (judging the target) or Dominator simply gives fact and provide suitable tool (recommend the user)...
We don't have proof about any of those two but people already judge that SYBIL is judging which so far isn't true because base on how Dominator presented, they merely recommend...

Quote:
I do get what you are saying that both are just Tools (I don't get what you mean by [self-recognition] though I'm pretty sure it was never presented as an AI), but that's not a very useful comparison to make by virtue of orders of degree of sophistication. it's like your comparing an aircraft carrier with a canoe, OK they both float and humans drive them. or hand held calculators and modern laptops, OK so both have these number 0-9 buttons and can solve math. see my earlier posts about dangerous tools/items and how it can facilitate injustice, and how others would just accept it and use it being just SHEEP. especially since it gives encompassing judgement about people.

Well i never said SYBIL is a failure, in fact i think it's one hell of a machine!, and quite an advancement, but i disagree with it's use and implementation.

And no i disagree that there are systems around us like SYBIL, education some say, NATs and other placement exams some others. but again degree of sophistication and encompassing implementation. and definitely not like speedometers and speed radars. It may seem similar but it's not, there are underlying issues that makes it different altogether. like checks and balances.
My whole post is simply to state the fact that SYBIL is a tool thus need to keep being treated as tool...
Whether they claim far too many aspect of life or not, it is different altogether and how it is implemented is what we should ask for...

The fact is, whatever the tool you have, they do gives you recommendation for one simple fact: they give you information.

Though...
Quote:
I'm sorry sir i don't really understand what you're saying here if you will elaborate though
I am afraid we disagree on what we call as 'recommendation' and 'judgement'...

If we think SYBIL as tool than a 'tool's recommendation' is - in my opinion - information that the tool provide to the user while 'tool's judgement' is where tool act based on its own information without human interference (i.e anti-virus delete my game's crack because it treats the crack as virus without ask my permission)...

What is judgement?
Base on your post, I assume what you mean judgement is same with what I call as recommendation...
For me, Judgement is the finishing act, that the gun shot the victims without anyone trigger it...
As long as the gun needs human to trigger it, then I still think it as only recommendation...
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:19   Link #115
totoum
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Originally Posted by garbage View Post
again, Speed Radars like speedometers never tell anyone "you're wrong" and yes in fact they ARE simple measuring tools.
In france you'll automatically be fined if an automatic radar says you're speeding,radar takes a picture,special software recognizes the number plate (then humans check to make sure it's right) and a fine is automatically sent by mail to the person that owns the car with that number plate.You can contest but it's very much a "guilty until proven innocent" system.
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:42   Link #116
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What we don't know is if there's manual override for the Dominator, or if you have to pistol whip people to take them alive once Sybil's decided to be a dick.
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:47   Link #117
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What we don't know is if there's manual override for the Dominator, or if you have to pistol whip people to take them alive once Sybil's decided to be a dick.
I don't think there's a manual override. Go back to the opening scene of Ep1, when Shinya was channelling Spike Spiegel in a one-man assault on an office tower. Spike, er, I mean Shinya, was confronted by what seemed to be a bioroid, and when he attempted shoot it with his Dominator, he cursed under his breath because the gun wouldn't work. He had to fight the bioroid hand-to-hand, possibly with the aim of raising the danger rating high enough for him to unlock the Dominator's lethal mode. It took quite a heavy beating before Shinya could fire the weapon.
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Old 2012-10-29, 06:13   Link #118
Quadratic
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Damn it, I've only now realised I've been spelling it Sybil, but it's spelt Sibyl (or SIBYL to be extra cool). Pack it up guys, all arguments for Sibyl are now invalid .
(And long post is loooooooong).

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Well, it's not like they're all geniuses. A lot of work has to be done, and there are only so many A-rankers.
You're right. But what I expect from a Sibyl-like system is the standards being gradually increased by culling the (potential) criminals, so that would free up resources to be allocated elsewhere.
I know it's a cold attitude, but again, that's not what I want to live in, but this is how I see hard choices would be made.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And I wonder why the manager got his job? Did Sybil overestimate him, or did it just decide the job wasn't that critical and could be given to that asshole?
Probably because it doesn't have a personality checking parameter, and the manager is still "managing" it to the point where operations are still...satisfactory.
It doesn't seem like Sibyl knows things like the factory environment (in terms of actual personalities within), or the history surrounding it.
If it turns out Sibyl is somehow self-aware, able to account for asshole/non-asshole personality traits, or able to determine potential scapegoats, then a lot of my arguments will probably become invalid, I fear .

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I disagree. I do think it brings in some new issues. We don't have supercomputers giving these sorts of wide-ranging, massively life-impacting recommendations to businesses, law enforcement agencies, etc... in real life.
Ok, I'll give you that point, but that's seems to be a matter of trusting a single machine, as opposed to a bunch of "sub-systems" (ie. real human beings) who each have their own set of individual bias...like a game of Chinese whispers.
Still, a single machine making life-impacting recommendations versus a bit of biased individuals making life-impacting recommendations, obviously the latter increases your chances of survival in the real world, but that's exploiting loop-holes in the human network system.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It also seems to me that the Sibyl system has seriously undermined the very concept of medical confidentiality. Again, I see no reason why psychiatric health should be viewed as any less private a matter than one's physiological health. And yet such privacy doesn't seem to exist in the world of Psycho-Pass.
Excluding latent criminals, they are given the opportunities to get mental help (as detected by the street drones, or whatever they're called, and/or hue assessments).
Instead of hiding away unstability, the system is promotes maintaining healthy mental state for everyone.
The only arguments here are the latent criminals issue, that people should be given the right to remain unstable (and/or get worst) or the possibility of mind controlling agents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Joe Schmoe picking up a weapon and killing somebody with ease with it.

Bows and arrows actually take skill and training to be effective lethal weapons.
Now, I'm not saying that the world's most elite gun-users aren't highly skilled and trained marksmen. They are, and they deserve credit for that.
But guns don't have that same "high bar" for lethal use that the classic bow and arrow does.
Virtually anybody can pick up a gun and kill somebody with it on their very first attempt at using it. Such a thing is far less likely with a bow and arrow.
The benefit of this, for the bow and arrow, is that in the midst of getting that necessary archery training, people learn the importance of safe and proper use of the bow and arrow. But you can purchase and effectively use a gun without ever getting training like this. That makes guns an uniquely problematic weapon from a societal perspective, imo.
Now, I'm not saying that guns should be outright outlawed, but I do think that America probably would benefit from more effective gun regulations.

As for close-range weapons (like knifes and swords) they at least require people to be gutsy enough to get within arm's reach of their intended target.
Someone invents a portable flesh cutting laser...anyway, that wasn't the point of the argument .
The point was that weapons were designed to be weapons, so it's purpose as a 'good' thing is twisting it's original intent.

Sibyl...well, at this point in time, I believe was created to help aid people, not created as a weapon.
The closet analogy I can come up with is the internet itself. The original intent twisted by the people making issues like cyber-bullying, digital piracy ("You wouldn't download a car!"...er, what?), etc.
Has the internet been censored, yet? Well, it is only now starting to.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No there isn't. There's clearly more weight for following the recommendations. If Akane does everything "by the book" (i.e. by Sibyl) nobody is going to question that. She is going to at least get questioned if she goes against a Sibyl recommendation though.

Again, doing things the Sibyl way is the path of least resistance, so the Sibyl way carries an inherent edge over other alternatives. It does undermine the likelihood of humans practicing good personal judgement.
She extended the situation for another 3-4 minutes and risked the life of another Enforcer. Plently of things can happen in those 3-4 minutes.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure employing latent criminals undermines the practicing good personal judgement.
But again, that's not Sibyl recommending 'please fight fire with fire', that's people going 'hey, let's risk the lives of "dogs" instead'.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Somewhat. But at the end of the day, hiring decisions are placed in the hands of people, who (at least as far as I know) operate without supercomputers telling them "Hire this guy" or "Hire this girl".

Also, I think you underestimate the role that old factors like nepotism and "who you know" plays. Also, specific grades aren't always as important as simply having the pertinent degree(s).

We would probably agree that society has gone too far in using the Post-Secondary education system as a massive glorified screening process for employers. There's some jobs that nowadays require degrees that, frankly, you shouldn't need degrees in order to get hired for those jobs.

Nonetheless, a lot of jobs really do require the sort of learning that is probably best gained from an University or College setting, so I don't think that the system is entirely unfair or broken. It just needs to be tweaked, and injected with what I'm tempted to call common sense.

I also think that school grades are a reasonably good measurement of intelligence plus work ethic, of inherent skill plus effort. I think it does a decent job of balancing these values, and giving most people at least some chance (effort is all about choice; average intelligence plus impeccable effort will usually lead to a decent life).
Masaoka: "You know how to use a Dominator, right?"
Akane: "I-I did receive training on it, more or less..."
Supercomputer did not allocate the job to Akane on the spot. She chose her profession and got training prior to her first official shift.
I'm speculating the training was done with people, so they could still reject her if she wasn't meeting their expectations (and if I'm wrong, you'll get a cookie).

But of course, Sibyl's judgement hasn't been proven wrong just yet:
Friend A: "The best I could do was C-rank scores across the board."
Friend B: "What's the problem? You're good at blue-collar work."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't have a problem with that. Desperate times often call for desperate measures. I accept that.

Should the world of Psycho-Pass have some eye-opening historical background that gave rise to it (i.e. a truly desperate situation that lead to it), then that will change my perspective of it to be sure. But I haven't seen any such evidence of that yet.
Right, that was my hypothetical situation in our world.
As for Psycho-Pass's world, they probably did it because they saw an opportunity to make the world a better place. Technically, we don't know if the world really is worst or not.
We're watching it from the police's side so we're purposely shoved into the dark side of society, but:
Ep 2: Was meant to be a quiet night.
Ep 3: "Back in the days when we didn't have cymatic scans, these sorts of incidents weren't that uncommon".
So, it sounds like crime has decreased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And you know what? This hits home personally for me. A couple weeks ago I was driving to work in a nasty rainstorm. Partly due to that (and construction workers not being active in the bad weather) I missed the fact that I was driving through a Construction Zone. I ended up breaking the speed limit for a construction area, but still going below what the speed limit would normally be. I received a ticket for that, but the police officer lowered it after I explained my case to him. Would that had happened if a Sibyl system had told him "Give that driver the standard penalty for driving over the speed limit in a construction zone"? Personally, I doubt it.

This is part of the reason why I want police officers to act on their own personal judgement, taking each case in full context, and not just going along with what some uncaring machine tells them to do.
I'm glad you didn't get fined, but unfortunately, my city has deployed cameras so you automatically get fined for speeding and/or accidently drive in bus-only streets (well, only in some parts of the city).
An argument could be made that the bigger picture is that the officer could have been allocated to solving a more serious crime elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
What is judgement?
Base on your post, I assume what you mean judgement is same with what I call as recommendation...
For me, Judgement is the finishing act, that the gun shot the victims without anyone trigger it...
As long as the gun needs human to trigger it, then I still think it as only recommendation...
I'm pretty sure it was purposely meant to have that double meaning.
The ones who completely have complete faith in the system takes its follows its exact words as it speaks.
But again, that's the individual's, or the entire social culture, idea to take it as "the word of god" and follow it immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I don't think there's a manual override. Go back to the opening scene of Ep1, when Shinya was channelling Spike Spiegel in a one-man assault on an office tower. Spike, er, I mean Shinya, was confronted by what seemed to be a bioroid, and when he attempted shoot it with his Dominator, he cursed under his breath because the gun wouldn't work. He had to fight the bioroid hand-to-hand, possibly with the aim of raising the danger rating high enough for him to unlock the Dominator's lethal mode. It took quite a heavy beating before Shinya could fire the weapon.
I watched it again, and it seems the guy's helmet was blocking the Dominator from scanning its brain. When the guy fell out of the window, the helmet when sparking (ie. broken) so the Dominator scanned him and the shot could be made.

As for the manual override, what was the answer to why the hacker didn't get "enforced" lethally despite a higher reading than ep 1's guy? It was higher, right?
Maybe there is a manual override, and Shinya's listening to Akane's words in ep 1/2 (justice over duty)?
Or was it because the hacker actually had no killing intent himself (ie. he needed the robots to kill on his behalf), so Sibyl saw no lethal threat from him?
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Old 2012-10-29, 06:33   Link #119
Kanon
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
As for the manual override, what was the answer to why the hacker didn't get "enforced" lethally despite a higher reading than ep 1's guy? It was higher, right?
Maybe there is a manual override, and Shinya's listening to Akane's words in ep 1/2 (justice over duty)?
Or was it because the hacker actually had no killing intent himself (ie. he needed the robots to kill on his behalf), so Sibyl saw no lethal threat from him?
The guy in the first episode was probably a special case. The paralyzer didn't work on him so the gun had no choice but to switch to lethal.
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Old 2012-10-29, 07:15   Link #120
MarkS00N
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
I'm pretty sure it was purposely meant to have that double meaning.
The ones who completely have complete faith in the system takes its follows its exact words as it speaks.
But again, that's the individual's, or the entire social culture, idea to take it as "the word of god" and follow it immediately.
True, but in the end it isn't the Sibyl that force people to use it, it is people trust on it...
Thus it merely a tool...
I just disagree with the statement that it is all Sibyl fault...

Quote:
As for the manual override, what was the answer to why the hacker didn't get "enforced" lethally despite a higher reading than ep 1's guy? It was higher, right?
Maybe there is a manual override, and Shinya's listening to Akane's words in ep 1/2 (justice over duty)?
Or was it because the hacker actually had no killing intent himself (ie. he needed the robots to kill on his behalf), so Sibyl saw no lethal threat from him?
It seems the dominator will use paralyzer first no matter how high the CC is and the man is special because the paralyzer doesn't work so dominator value the man's threat as far too high and change to lethal mode (as Kanon said)...

Talk about threat...
I've watched episode 1 again and find that CC is different than threat measurement...
Which can explain or clouded our understanding about dominator mode change...
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