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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 18
10 out of 10: Near Perfect... 16 14.68%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 30 27.52%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 29 26.61%
7 out of 10 : Good... 20 18.35%
6 out of 10 : Average... 5 4.59%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 2 1.83%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 1 0.92%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 3 2.75%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 3 2.75%
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-11-04, 12:04   Link #121
Awrya
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Originally Posted by Green² View Post
Now you have Leefa to add to that list.
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So it's official now? Even Leafa was better than Leefa, I refuse to accept it until the author makes it officially canon
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Old 2012-11-04, 12:37   Link #122
Dengar
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*sigh* so much feminism. >_> What on earth is wrong with equality? Why does it have to be one or the other?


Also, someone on the anime team REALLY likes to show off Suguha. And she is so cute too.
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Old 2012-11-04, 12:47   Link #123
Utsuro no Hako
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Originally Posted by Metaneo View Post
How is the notion of kidnapping a girl and threatening her with rape "absurd?" Quite frankly, not only do I find that statement incredibally close-minded, but also naive and very offensive.

People in real life have actually been kidnapped, locked up and raped in real life, so to say that Asuna's situation is absurd is very very offensive and insulting.
Then it's a good thing I didn't say that. What I'm calling absurd is Kawahara's choice to use rape as a plot device to show how evil Sugou is -- in doing so he's trivializing the whole situation and pandering to the male audience to provoke feelings of protectiveness. And it's something that happens far too often in fiction -- see for example Seanan McGuire's recent article on a fan who didn't understand why none of her female characters had been raped yet:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanan McGuire
Last night, I was asked—in so many words—when either Toby or one of the Price girls was finally going to be raped.

Not "if." Not "do you think." But "when," and "finally." Because it is a foregone conclusion, you see, that all women must be raped, especially when they have the gall to run around being protagonists all the damn time. I responded with confusion. The questioner provided a list of scenarios wherein these characters were "more than likely" to encounter sexual violence. These included Verity forgetting to change out of her tango uniform before going on patrol, Toby being cocky, and Sarah walking home from class alone. Yes, even the ambush predator telepath with a "don't notice me" field is inevitably getting raped.

When. Finally. Inevitably.

My response: "None of my protagonists are getting raped. I do not want to write that."

Their response: "I thought you had respect for your work. That's just unrealistic."

...

But rape in fiction can also be a problematic and belittling thing, used to put cocky heroines in their places. When Janet goes to Caughterha despite being told not to, her punishment is rape by the eponymous Tam Lin. When a superheroine needs a deeper, edgier backstory, there's always some previously third-tier villain with a de-powering ray and an agenda waiting in the wings. I read a lot of horror, a lot of comics, and a lot of urban fantasy, and the one thing these three things have in common is rape. Lots and lots and lots of rape.

And I don't wanna write that.

I do not understand—I will not understand, I refuse to understand—why rape has to be on the table for every story with a female protagonist, or even a strong female supporting cast. Why it's so assumed that I'm being "unrealistic" when I say that none of my female characters are going to be raped. Why this "takes the tension out of the story." There is plenty of tension without me having to write about something that upsets both me and many of my readers, thanks.
There's also the issue that in real life most rapes don't involve a woman getting kidnapped and locked in a cage by Captain Evil. If you want realism, it'd be more likely that Klein once took a girl back to her apartment after a date, started making out with her and refused to stop when she told him to, or that Lizabeth once went to a party, got drunk and woke up the next morning naked in a hotel room.
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Old 2012-11-04, 12:48   Link #124
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If I was Sugou and planned to kidnap 300 test subjects using company resources and eventually taking control of the company by marrying Asuna, you can be sure Asuna would be one of the kidnapees. At least until I got that brainwashing thing working.
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Old 2012-11-04, 13:19   Link #125
Metaneo
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Then it's a good thing I didn't say that. What I'm calling absurd is Kawahara's choice to use rape as a plot device to show how evil Sugou is -- in doing so he's trivializing the whole situation and pandering to the male audience to provoke feelings of protectiveness.
I see nothing to provoke feelings of protectiveness on behalf of the male audience. Now this board may be just a small portion of the population that watches this show (very small,) but I see no one aside from the people claiming feminism/sexist on this arc claiming that. Hell I think most of us here are hoping she gets herself out of this situation, whistle hurting sugou in the process.

The absolute and only reason I can see Asuna being the one put in this situation or even in this situation is because it's neccessary for Sugou to further his primary objective of taking over RCT company. The fact that he gets to torment Asuna and maybe end up controling her is just a bonus to him. His plan would be stopped before it even started if Asuna was concious and able to do anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
There's also the issue that in real life most rapes don't involve a woman getting kidnapped and locked in a cage by Captain Evil. If you want realism, it'd be more likely that Klein once took a girl back to her apartment after a date, started making out with her and refused to stop when she told him to, or that Lizabeth once went to a party, got drunk and woke up the next morning naked in a hotel room.
Go up to a person, man or woman since that seems to be everyone's issue here, that was raped/molested after being kidnapped and tell them that it doesnt happen very often and that it's "absurd." See how many teeth you still have afterward. Even if you say what's absurd is the author using it as a plot device, it's still highly offensive. A plot device is a plot device, the intentions behind it and how it's used are what matters, not that people's personal opinion of it is that it's stupid and the "easy" way out.

Spoiler for Save space:


I say good for her, she doesnt want to write that, I say more power to her. I agree with her completely. What's "absurd" was THAT letter from THAT fan. Using rape in a story does not make it bad, it does not make it poor writing. As I said before, it's a plot device, what the author does with it from here on out will define whether or not it was a good or poor choice.

Oh and will you please stop with the complaining about how Sugou acts, it's his character, I know plenty of them in real life as sad as that may be.
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Old 2012-11-04, 13:42   Link #126
Utsuro no Hako
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Originally Posted by Metaneo View Post
The absolute and only reason I can see Asuna being the one put in this situation or even in this situation is because it's neccessary for Sugou to further his primary objective of taking over RCT company. The fact that he gets to torment Asuna and maybe end up controling her is just a bonus to him. His plan would be stopped before it even started if Asuna was concious and able to do anything at all.
None of which addresses the issue that Reki Kawahara is the one who decided to set up the situation that way instead of taking a path that didn't involve Asuna getting depowered and threatened with rape.

Quote:
Go up to a person, man or woman since that seems to be everyone's issue here, that was raped/molested after being kidnapped and tell them that it doesnt happen very often and that it's "absurd." See how many teeth you still have afterward. Even if you say what's absurd is the author using it as a plot device, it's still highly offensive. A plot device is a plot device, the intentions behind it and how it's used are what matters, not that people's personal opinion of it is that it's stupid and the "easy" way out.
Again, you're misconstruing my point. I'm talking about how rape in fiction differs from reality -- I'm not saying that real rapes are absurd, only the way authors distort them for the purposes of stories. Fictional depictions of rape are almost always the kind we're getting here -- obviously evil guy kidnaps woman and abuses her, or attacks in an alley. It creates a false impression of what rape is -- it's not your college roommate doing it to a girl he picked up at a party, or a coworker who has sex with his girlfriend whether she's in the mood or not. Kawahara is feeding the notion that all rapists are disgusting guys who are clearly bad instead of ordinary guys who don't take "no" for an answer.

Quote:
Oh and will you please stop with the complaining about how Sugou acts, it's his character, I know plenty of them in real life as sad as that may be.
I'll stop complaining when the character stops being written on the level of Dirk Dastardly.
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Old 2012-11-04, 13:55   Link #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If I was Sugou and planned to kidnap 300 test subjects using company resources and eventually taking control of the company by marrying Asuna, you can be sure Asuna would be one of the kidnapees. At least until I got that brainwashing thing working.
I hate to say this but... eliminating Kirito is the best option for Sugou.... With Kirito dead, Asuna would not have any option but to marry another man or.... be a nun???

Or at least the company might be transferred to him since he is adapted to the family....
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:24   Link #128
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*sigh* so much feminism. >_> What on earth is wrong with equality? Why does it have to be one or the other?
Not to be condescending, but do you think feminism means that the women need to be treated better than man? At least that is the impression I got from what you wrote. Sorry if I made a mistake.

But feminism means women should have equal rights to those of men.

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Originally Posted by http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism
fem·i·nism [fem-uh-niz-uh m] Show IPA
noun
1.
the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3.
feminine character.
I just wanted to correct this, because it seems some people on the internet think feminism is bad because they think it stands for something it does not.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2012-11-04 at 14:48.
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:24   Link #129
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Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
So it's official now? Even Leafa was better than Leefa, I refuse to accept it until the author makes it officially canon
No idea. This could also be just a typo, as similar to how within episode 16 in which that they spelled "Alert" as "Alart". Of which one the typo here is, remains the question.
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:27   Link #130
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No idea. This could also be just a typo, as similar to how within episode 16 in which that they spelled "Alert" as "Alart". Of which one the typo here is, remains the question.
That's not unusual.... It's been a part of every anime since the dawn if time...
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:30   Link #131
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No idea. This could also be just a typo, as similar to how within episode 16 in which that they spelled "Alert" as "Alart". Of which one the typo here is, remains the question.
Lisbeth was also sometimes written as Lizbeth. The anime is inconsistent with spelling.
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:31   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
None of which addresses the issue that Reki Kawahara is the one who decided to set up the situation that way instead of taking a path that didn't involve Asuna getting depowered and threatened with rape.

So, in your opinion, no fiction should ever involve rape, no matter how well written it is, or how realistically it's being portrayed because including rape in a story is bad writing? The fact that Kawahara chose this situation does not make it inherently bad, it's how he plays the story out that matters. It's how each character deals with the situation and how each character lets the experience affect them in the aftermath that will define whether this was a good or poor choice for a story path. You just dont seem to get that no plot device is inherently good or bad, but rather how its used.

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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Again, you're misconstruing my point. I'm talking about how rape in fiction differs from reality -- I'm not saying that real rapes are absurd, only the way authors distort them for the purposes of stories. Fictional depictions of rape are almost always the kind we're getting here -- obviously evil guy kidnaps woman and abuses her, or attacks in an alley. It creates a false impression of what rape is -- it's not your college roommate doing it to a girl he picked up at a party, or a coworker who has sex with his girlfriend whether she's in the mood or not.
I'm not miscontruing anything. I know the "staticstics" behind rape. You are more likely to be raped by someone you know, co-worker or whatever, then the "monster in a dark alley." Doesnt make stories that involve the latter any cheaper or absurd. Oh and in this case, the guy isnt the "monster in a dark alley," he's the friend of the family who's considered to be like family. And for all intents and purposes in-story, Sugou IS the college roommate, he IS the co-worker, nobody except Kirito and Asuna know what he is really like, it's just that we the viewers have an omnicient point of view and can see what he's really like when few others can.

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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Kawahara is feeding the notion that all rapists are disgusting guys who are clearly bad instead of ordinary guys who don't take "no" for an answer.
Kawahara is not "feeding the notion" that all rapists are disgusting guys who are clearly bad. Anyone who is unwilling to "take no for an answer" isnt exactly "ordinary." He may not be the evil scumbag that Sugou is and he may not even BE evil, but he is far from normal and does have issues. If he was an ordinary guy he would be able to take no for an answer, unless you you're self are relying on the age old stereotype that once a guy is "turned on" he cant be "turned off."

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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
I'll stop complaining when the character stops being written on the level of Dirk Dastardly.
An evil scumbag will be an evil scumbag, you might as well complain that the sky is blue or that the brick wall infront of you wont move out of your way. He's the villian of this arc. Not every bad person in the world has some sort of sob story, or sympathetic background that caused them to end up they way they did. What you're complaining about isnt that he's poorly written, it's that he's a bonafide, grade A sociopath. And to be truthful, the author is doing a pretty dam good job of depicting what a real "malignant" sociopath is like.
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:33   Link #133
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Again, you're misconstruing my point. I'm talking about how rape in fiction differs from reality -- I'm not saying that real rapes are absurd, only the way authors distort them for the purposes of stories. Fictional depictions of rape are almost always the kind we're getting here -- obviously evil guy kidnaps woman and abuses her, or attacks in an alley. It creates a false impression of what rape is -- it's not your college roommate doing it to a girl he picked up at a party, or a coworker who has sex with his girlfriend whether she's in the mood or not. Kawahara is feeding the notion that all rapists are disgusting guys who are clearly bad instead of ordinary guys who don't take "no" for an answer.
At the end of the day, Sugou is not a rapist. He's a deranged ego-maniac. All his talk about thinking about violating her and so on are just power-trip fantasies. But he's more interested in wearing her down mentally/emotionally than over-powering her physically even though he though he has every possible way of doing it: his position of power, her confinement, his scientific experiments, and so on. I don't think he even cares about her except that he knew all along that she hated him, and he wants the satisfaction of having her bow down before him of her own free will. If he can get her to do that, I imagine it would be infinitely satisfying to his ego.

I'm not saying that he's a particularly nuanced villain, as there clearly hasn't been much effort to make him sympathetic or particularly relatable. But I don't think this show is trying to send an sort of message about what rapists are like through this. But I also don't think it's unlikely that someone power-obsessed would fantasize about rape, because it is often about power and control. Sugou has nearly-unlimited power, but he doesn't seem willing to control Asuna in that way. Perhaps he would be a rapist if not for this, but he isn't (at least not as far as we know). Of course, he is performing human experimentation that could result in serious brain damage and other "side-effects" including death, so there's not exactly anything that redeems him.

In the end, and that aside, I assume that it has probably yet to be decided in the SAO universe if crimes committed against an avatar in the virtual world have any real life consequences. This was a point addressed in this episode, where Sugou says -- essentially -- who cares what happens in the virtual world because it's not real. Asuna, on the other hand, suggests that the VR world and the real world are no different as far as she as concerned, which Sugou shrugs off as being "worried about mental damage". Considering his experimentation all involves "mental damage", that's sort of an interesting view coming from him. So if there is a conversation being had in this show about crime, this is probably more what they're aiming for. If he did attack her in this game where death just makes you respawn, all the feelings are simulated, and you can't feel real "pain"... even though the mental scars are real, what even is that crime? It's an odd issue to contemplate.
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:45   Link #134
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
Then it's a good thing I didn't say that. What I'm calling absurd is Kawahara's choice to use rape as a plot device to show how evil Sugou is -- in doing so he's trivializing the whole situation and pandering to the male audience to provoke feelings of protectiveness. And it's something that happens far too often in fiction -- see for example Seanan McGuire's recent article on a fan who didn't understand why none of her female characters had been raped yet:



There's also the issue that in real life most rapes don't involve a woman getting kidnapped and locked in a cage by Captain Evil. If you want realism, it'd be more likely that Klein once took a girl back to her apartment after a date, started making out with her and refused to stop when she told him to, or that Lizabeth once went to a party, got drunk and woke up the next morning naked in a hotel room.
I agree that too often writers use rape as a way to make villain look evil, but banning the use rape in fiction in this way isn't the answer. Writers should be able to use it if they want, but what it is important is that the amount of time this happens in fiction should be lowered. In that way it would stop being the default option for writers writing female characters. It would become something the writer would have to carefully think about like any other option.
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:46   Link #135
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
At the end of the day, Sugou is not a rapist. He's a deranged ego-maniac. All his talk about thinking about violating her and so on are just power-trip fantasies. But he's more interested in wearing her down mentally/emotionally than over-powering her physically even though he though he has every possible way of doing it: his position of power, her confinement, his scientific experiments, and so on. I don't think he even cares about her except that he knew all along that she hated him, and he wants the satisfaction of having her bow down before him of her own free will. If he can get her to do that, I imagine it would be infinitely satisfying to his ego.
I was debating bringing up that fact that he actually hasnt raped her, but to me, the fact that he's capable and willing to if it came down to it kinda places him in that category for me. But no, he's not an actual rapist so all of this converstion and everything I've said is actually quite pointless.
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Old 2012-11-04, 14:52   Link #136
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He didn't rape her he just groped her breast, I'm not saying in a sarcastic way.

But I agree if he's an ego driven perverted maniac....
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:00   Link #137
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For Sugou, it's all about power. That isn't at all mutually exclusive with being a rapist, but he's not motivated by wanting to have sex with Asuna. He's motivated by having power over her (and others). This is also why he takes every possible opportunity to explain his evil plans to anyone who he believes can't do anything about it. It's not enough that he simply gets what he wants, he wants to make sure that everyone knows it. Honestly, that part is more important than getting what he wants.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:06   Link #138
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Again, you're misconstruing my point. I'm talking about how rape in fiction differs from reality -- I'm not saying that real rapes are absurd, only the way authors distort them for the purposes of stories. Fictional depictions of rape are almost always the kind we're getting here -- obviously evil guy kidnaps woman and abuses her, or attacks in an alley. It creates a false impression of what rape is -- it's not your college roommate doing it to a girl he picked up at a party, or a coworker who has sex with his girlfriend whether she's in the mood or not. Kawahara is feeding the notion that all rapists are disgusting guys who are clearly bad instead of ordinary guys who don't take "no" for an answer.
Now, usually I keep to the Accel World forums, but I thought I'll change my game for a moment and go back 20 years into the past.

From what I read, you're saying that rapists aren't clearly bad? That they just can't take no for an answer? Yes, not being able to take no for an answer isn't an inherently bad trait in itself, but taken in this context, rapists are trampling on the basic human rights of their victims. They are denying them of their right to free will by forcing themselves upon them. That, no matter under what circumstances, is simply despicable. Yes, we can prattle on for example about how this guy was subjected to constant abuse as a child thereby making him into the serial rapist he is today blah blah blah but two wrongs don't make a right. It might be easy for you to talk about rapists like that, but their victims know otherwise. They were at the receiving end of the abuse. They experienced firsthand what horrors these people were capable of unleashing upon them. So complaining about Kawahara contributing to the notion that all rapists are disgusting is like complaining about how the Bible portrays demons as evil. They simply are.

You complain about why the arc turned out this way, but I ask you: why not? We see more of Asuna's backstory with the introduction of Sugou as the main villian, we see how little Asuna's family knows about her, what she actually wants, who she actually is. We see more about Sugu, Kirito's beloved little sister whom he mentions on multiple during the events of SAO, who she is as a person, a little bit about her backstory in school, the relationship she and Kirito share. We even get to see the effect a VRMMO has in others with the removal of the death penalty, what happened to ARGUS because of SAO, so many things. How would the alternate paths you listed be able to accomplish all these? Do you really think Asuna's parents object to Kirito and her being together? They don't even know they have a relationship beyond being good friends. In fact, it seems likely that they arranged Sugou and Asuna's marriage thinking that it was what she wants. Would ALO as an alternate reality escape introduce more about Sugu like we did now? Not to mention ALO belongs to RCT, which belongs to Asuna's father. If he had indeed objected to them being together, do you think he would do nothing about it and let them continue their relationship on his company's property? Keep in mind Asuna would still be living with her parents, and ALO is very likely the only other VRMMO besides SAO due to RCT owning the servers. It isn't possible for her to play in secret.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:11   Link #139
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He didn't rape her he just groped her breast, I'm not saying in a sarcastic way.
As we discussed before (since you're not saying it in a sarcastic way?), he didn't grope her breast either -- the camera changed angles to show that he hadn't yet touched her and stopped once he saw her reaction.
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Old 2012-11-04, 15:17   Link #140
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
As we discussed before (since you're not saying it in a sarcastic way?), he didn't grope her breast either -- the camera changed angles to show that he hadn't yet touched her and stopped once he saw her reaction.
I'm still in doubt... she did jump but its my opinion anyway...
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