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Old 2012-11-05, 13:49   Link #21
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Because of this picture:



This picture captured the imagination of an entire generation. That picture speaks a thousand, or a million, or .. however many words..
Nevermind the fact that the tank commander refused to run over the guy to begin with.

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Why is Tiananmen always cited as PLA savagery, but when the Tiawanese do a armed crackdown kill 10,000-30,000, is never mentioned in the history books? :P
Because China is the big bad so anything they do is evil. Whatever the US media says we follow.

For example.

The little girl that was run over multiple times in China until an old lady came by and rescued her. There was a huge outrage over it.

Not too long ago, in Sweden, a man fell onto a subway and was knocked out. A guy came by, saw him, jumped onto the tracks, grabbed his wallet, then ran way while waving to a nearby security guy (without notifying him). The guy survived but lost his legs and yet there was no outrage over it (local but nowhere near the Chinese one)

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Agreed. What's the point of reapeating Homefront in a movie format this time?

The first time I heard about this remake being filmed, it was clear in broad daylight that it would be the Chinese leading the occupation (I can still find the photos from the set when it was filmed), and it would have made more sense to me since China DO have the manpower and resources to do that. MGM lost their balls along the way when it came to the PRC and completely forgot that the PRC, in real life, is only one ultranationalist government away of being willing to invade anyone.

If we have seen so many video games with storylines where Russia was taken over by an ultranationalist body in the government and then waited for a perfect opportunity to strike at the West, I don't know why the same can't be applied for the PRC. It's about fiction, but at least make it believable.
.
The thing is a Chinese invasion is less realistic because the Chinese economy is very much tied into the United States. If either were to go to war with the other, it'd be economic suicide. Hence why in Homefront China isn't even mentioned because it was in the same boat as the US.

North Korea...well I can't argue about that one as it's even more unrealistic but the thing is that it's very much a communist country compared to China which isn't communist.

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P.S. Even if the KPA is a bunch of savages, let's not forget that what happened in Tien An Men is also something marking people's minds about what the PLA can do for a living when it comes to actions against civilians
And this people is an example of the way media controls the minds where people still think China is the same place as it was back in 89.

I was in a lecture with Lord Christopher Patten a few years back in Cambridge and someone from FREE TIBET bought this up to him. His reply was pretty straight forward, "while they still have a long way to go you cannot deny the fact that the people in China have a lot more rights than they did back in 89...critizing them is not going to make it get better"
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Old 2012-11-05, 13:55   Link #22
willx
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
However, you forgot the part where the Tanks didn't run him down...
Oh come now, don't be like that .. you know the fact that they didn't run that particular man down doesn't matter. Also, accounts by journalists on the ground, saying it was more a riot than a massacre .. again, doesn't matter.

It's that picture. That image. The visceral human element showing the "man" vs. the "state" that resonated with the world .. especially while the Western mindscape was captured by the idea of the Communist boogieman. Also, remember, I believe during this time ROC/Taiwan was recognized as the in-exile government of China .. Allies can do no wrong my friend.

EDIT: All that said .. Tianamen aside, I'd implore anyone that defends the CCP to run numbers on the state of the "average" person that isn't living in the SEZ .. There's an interesting investment blog post (here) that discusses the "rise" of China and how it's international influence is due to a government "kleptocracy" that is basically diverting domestic consumption and welfare into global influence and expansion. He's an Australian hedge fund manager that employs "boots on the ground" that I highly respect and has made a name for himself recently on shorting companies and revealing frauds.

Last edited by willx; 2012-11-05 at 14:02. Reason: Edit for link and other edits
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Old 2012-11-05, 13:55   Link #23
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Still, why does no one mention 228 incident? I guess it is not an massacre if it was done by a Western sponsored government?
Two reasons:

1. It was in the middle of the civil war. Incidents like that tend to be overlooked in the big picture.
2. No mass media like what happened with Tiananmen.



As for PLA being brutal: It's actually easier to crush those that might overturn the state rather than being savage to people you are just occupying without the accompanying education dehumanizing the occupied.
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Old 2012-11-05, 14:39   Link #24
kyp275
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I think the real question here is why has another thread derailed into talking about China?

Shouldn't we be talking about how awesome it'd be if Hemsworth actually transformed into Thor halfway through the movie?
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Old 2012-11-05, 15:00   Link #25
willx
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You mean.. Captain THORMERICA!

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Old 2012-11-05, 15:32   Link #26
DonQuigleone
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As I said earlier, why not just use the Soviets? Can't offend anyone if the evil occupying country no longer exists...
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Old 2012-11-05, 16:00   Link #27
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
As I said earlier, why not just use the Soviets? Can't offend anyone if the evil occupying country no longer exists...
Bush looked into Putin's soul, and it was all good
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Old 2012-11-05, 17:46   Link #28
LeoXiao
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As I said earlier, why not just use the Soviets? Can't offend anyone if the evil occupying country no longer exists...
IMO, the point of these movies is to pander to a kind of "let's defend our homeland" patriotism, of a sort that is sort of xenophobic and has a very pro-2nd Amendment agenda, so the enemy has to be a real, existing country. In the original, there was a scene where a corpse has his gun pried from his "cold, dead hands."

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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
However, you forgot the part where the Tanks didn't run him down...
Nobody knows what happened to him later. Just because he wasn't crushed doesn't mean he wasn't killed later.

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Still, why does no one mention 228 incident? I guess it is not an massacre if it was done by a Western sponsored government?
There's that, and there also the fact that 1989 was a time when democracy was coming to many countries around the world, with China being a notable exception, in which violent force was used to put down similar popular action. It's symbolic of the CCP's willingness to hold on to political power by all means. The 228 incident, while viewed alone was more brutal, simply does not have the same aura. People seem to forget that the KMT turned Taiwan into a democracy around the same time China was kept from becoming one, not to mention that Chiang Kai-Shek's rule from 1949 to 1975 was far tamer than Mao's from '49 to '76. It's like comparing Hitler to some minor dictator and complaining that Hitler gets too much attention.
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Old 2012-11-05, 17:54   Link #29
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Why is Tiananmen always cited as PLA savagery, but when the Tiawanese do a armed crackdown kill 10,000-30,000, is never mentioned in the history books? :P
Because most people have never heard of the Chinese White Terror. That's just a fact.
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Old 2012-11-05, 17:58   Link #30
LeoXiao
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Originally Posted by NinjaRealist View Post
Because most people have never heard of the Chinese White Terror. That's just a fact.
Also cuz China is like 1/5 of the world while Taiwan has only several dozen millions? Which one would you mention if you were writing a textbook and only had a page to cover all the events in East Asia between 1945 and 2000?
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Old 2012-11-05, 18:02   Link #31
NinjaRealist
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Also cuz China is like 1/5 of the world while Taiwan has only several dozen millions? Which one would you mention if you were writing a textbook and only had a page to cover all the events between 1945 and 2000?
The White Terror was not just a Taiwanese event. It began in Mainland China in 1927, with the Shanghai Massacre, and essentially continued unabated until the 90's, carrying over to Taiwan after the ROC government fled there.

All told, millions were tortured to death and killed outright, mostly on Mainland China. However, further tens of thousands were also later killed on Taiwan, after the ROC moved there.

In reality, the White Terror is one of the most significant events in Modern Chinese history.
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Old 2012-11-05, 18:12   Link #32
james0246
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Please cease all discussions concerning China, it's role in the world, and its economic or military might. The current discussion has nothing to do with the Red Dawn remake, so please stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
As I said earlier, why not just use the Soviets? Can't offend anyone if the evil occupying country no longer exists...
Agreed. There would have been a solid nostalgia value to the film if the USSR was the enemy (especially for us old fogies that actually saw the original film in theatres ).
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Old 2012-11-05, 20:54   Link #33
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Please cease all discussions concerning China, it's role in the world, and its economic or military might. The current discussion has nothing to do with the Red Dawn remake, so please stop.



Agreed. There would have been a solid nostalgia value to the film if the USSR was the enemy (especially for us old fogies that actually saw the original film in theatres ).
Well, you know they CGed China out, who were supposed to be the primary villain right? I actually heard from alot of conserative websites (I.E primary fans of this kind of film) who refuse to watch the film since it meant Hollywood was kneel to the great Satan.
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Old 2012-11-05, 21:28   Link #34
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Well, you know they CGed China out, who were supposed to be the primary villain right? I actually heard from alot of conserative websites (I.E primary fans of this kind of film) who refuse to watch the film since it meant Hollywood was kneel to the great Satan.
That's indeed the biggest controversy point about this movie: CGing out the original enemy right after the script and the production were fully approved by MGM when the project first came on the table. Now, why the executives asked suddenly for a change remains a big mystery to me. However, they better not use the lame excuse about not pissing China off while trying to sell the movie abroad. Russia has been used as a vilain so many times by the film and videogaming entertainment industry already, and yet never complained.

Again, this is about fiction. If some people from some country are not happy about the content of a movie or a video game, they can just boycott it.
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Old 2012-11-05, 22:18   Link #35
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
That's indeed the biggest controversy point about this movie: CGing out the original enemy right after the script and the production were fully approved by MGM when the project first came on the table. Now, why the executives asked suddenly for a change remains a big mystery to me. However, they better not use the lame excuse about not pissing China off while trying to sell the movie abroad. Russia has been used as a villain so many times by the film and videogaming entertainment industry already, and yet never complained.

Again, this is about fiction. If some people from some country are not happy about the content of a movie or a video game, they can just boycott it.
Russians did complain about certain films to no effect, mostly films such as Indiana Jones (the last one with Indy vs Russians), and Enemy at Gates (The veterans who actually fought in Stalingrad went to court, claiming by all records indicate they were tactical and heroic, and not tossed away like cannon fodder and backstabbers)

But problem is most films violently anti-russian are usually made in the cold war era (Where they wouldn't be seen by a USSR audience), and the new regime (I.E Putins) has not yet practice open censorship like China does. Not to mention not all Russians feel that connected with old USSR at any rate.

However, most chinese mainlanders still do feel connected to their government even if they hate it. And with MGM wanting to make inroad into the chinese market (which absolutely love American films), it has to make sure not to offend their hosts.

MGM, Sony, and Disney all suffered embargos for year for making anti-chinese films, and then found their licenses yanked....I guess MGM (which is heavily bankrupt), now no longer can afford to openly annoy a growing market.

Also, as a chinese living in America, I actually have to worry about racial violence that may be provoked by a film like this....so should the Koreans and Japanese...

Also, one of the worst example of censorship backfiring would be EA's command and conquer generals...they made China the final "hero" and the new protector of Europe while Americas got wiped by the GLA. Hoping to tapping into the chinese market, but it got banned in China anyway with the depiction of chinese forces bombing Hong Kong and San-Ya Dam to heavy ham kill terrorism.
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Old 2012-11-05, 22:52   Link #36
Ridwan
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You know what would've made a cooler socialist superpower then even Russia ? British Empire.

But let's save that for another certain thread.
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Old 2012-11-05, 23:04   Link #37
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
You know what would've made a cooler socialist superpower then even Russia ? British Empire.

But let's save that for another certain thread.
South Park allready did it, and they did it so well that it is impossible for anyone to come after.

Edit: the episode ended with the Queen putting a gun to her head and blowing her brains out. Classic South Park.

Last edited by james0246; 2012-11-05 at 23:29.
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Old 2012-11-05, 23:05   Link #38
kyp275
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Originally Posted by ridwan View Post
you know what would've made a cooler socialist superpower then even russia ? british empire.

but let's save that for another certain thread.
all hail britannia!
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Old 2012-11-05, 23:47   Link #39
NinjaRealist
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You know what would've made a cooler socialist superpower then even Russia ? British Empire. .
Red Dawn / Code Geass crossover anyone?
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:33   Link #40
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by NinjaRealist View Post
Red Dawn / Code Geass crossover anyone?
British Empire wanting the colonies back?

But does the Brits really want another Tea Party of any kind?
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