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Old 2012-11-29, 14:28   Link #81
james0246
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i think that difference actually makes perfect sense. when naruto spoke with edo-itachi, itachi told him that he cant do things on his own anymore or he would end up like tobi and madara. he told him to rely on others and naruto took it to heart. so now that's exactly what naruto is doing. he's embracing all the other ninja as support instead of pushing them away so he can fight on his own.
If it was just the Konoha 11 and a few others, I might agree. But, as it is, 1000s of essentially fodder ninja are not "helpful" unless Naruto wishes to use them as the meat in a meat grinder (maybe he can exhaust the Jyuubi by forcing it to eat 10,000 shinobi?). There are no tactics or strategy involved in the entire army showing up the way they did. They are in the way, they will get killed, and Naruto will be forced to watch them die (or Kishimoto will dumb down the Madara and Tobi).
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Old 2012-11-29, 14:55   Link #82
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For them to "be in the way" there needs to be a plan. As it is, the fodder just saved Naruto's arse. You are thinking too much in narrative absolutes rather then story context. They were pretty much done for at that moment.

If we want to talk narrative, them being there is a good thing. It adds color. If we had to go though the battle forward with the current beat up to hell crew stupid things would start to happen; at least this is somewhat legitimate nakama power. Just look at DBZ for examples of what happens when you got long solo battle—it's virtually inevitable. You then have Bleach for an example of happens when you write your protagonist as the all-purpose-nut-cracker. Given the magnitude of forces involved, Kishi is balancing it really well so far; even if we may not be exactly thrilled by the authorial sacrifices involved.
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Old 2012-11-29, 15:10   Link #83
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
For them to "be in the way" there needs to be a plan. As it is, the fodder just saved Naruto's arse.
I never disagreed with this (I even commented earlier on Ino's strange ability to control a Bijuu). Rather, I wrote that the army makes no sense. If it was just the Konoha 11 and a few others I could see how helpful such a force would be, but now with 1000s in the way, they are just pigs for the slaughter. (To put it in perspective, a few shinobi could jump out of the way of the Jyuubi's destructo-beam, but with so many clumped together, they would literally be tripping over themselves). As I said earlier, it would have made more sense to use summon beasts or just a handful of heavy hitters (better yet, some of those weapons the Rikudou-Sennin created obviously designed to fight Bijuu).

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You are thinking too much in narrative absolutes rather then story context.
I'm not thinking in narrative absolutes nor story context. I am thinking logically (which is my first and last problem I guess). You don't put your forces directly in the line of fire (unless there are extraordinary circumstances).
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Old 2012-11-29, 16:34   Link #84
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In my opinion, even if I don't like it, maybe Orochimaru and Sasuke will be made heroes of Konoha and the ninja world.
No, I don't see that. They are outlaws. I can't clearly remember, but I think they are both killers, aren't they? Sasuke ambushed the Kage meeting, Orochimaru killed the Hokage and the Kazekage.

There won't be as much of a change of the system… Murder is murder after all.

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I'm not thinking in narrative absolutes nor story context. I am thinking logically (which is my first and last problem I guess). You don't put your forces directly in the line of fire (unless there are extraordinary circumstances).
Most of the time, you are a bright person, I suppose. But you know, light travels faster than sound. That's why people often appear bright until they speak.
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Old 2012-11-29, 16:45   Link #85
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I even commented earlier on Ino's strange ability to control a Bijuu
In my understanding she took control of Obito (bottom of page 12), but he broke out in 2 seconds. But i wonder what Ino exactly meant by her jutsu being supported by Hyuuga, we can assume that from that distance Ino could see Obito only through Hinata's eyes, so did she first enter into Hinata and use her to focus on Obito and then switch into Obito, or it went in a different way. Anyway it was a nice example how combining their powers they could make a much more useful jutsu than what they had individually, the alliance will need to combine their jutsu on large scale if they want to achieve anything.

It seems that the alliance's plan for now is to hide Bee and Naruto acting as some kind of large meat-shield But there has to be also a plan to make some offensive move that is usefel against a demon otherwise their optimism would be rather stupid. I guess in the next chapter we will see the alliance executing some sort of plan that either Shikamaru or Shikaku prepared while they were traveling towards Naruto.

But most importantly the author showed us that Naruto has listened to and understood Itachi's words and he is willing to work with the whole alliance instead of trying to do it alone.
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Old 2012-11-29, 16:51   Link #86
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I'm not thinking in narrative absolutes nor story context. I am thinking logically (which is my first and last problem I guess). You don't put your forces directly in the line of fire (unless there are extraordinary circumstances).
You are thinking logically, from all the wrong angles, you are thinking because you know there are better angles, and thus it's potentially wasteful, they would know too. They don't. They don't have the bird's eye view, even with their sensor-whatnot.

All they know is, (1) the big bad army is defeated (2) all the kages are potentially defeated (3) the "remaining" enemy is where naruto is; with potentially very little to go on how dangerous the enemy is. OR They think Naruto is fighting the Akatsuki leader and the kage's are still fighting Madara. Either case, if depiction of previous ninja wars are anything to go by, in Kishi's ninja world throwing a lot of ninja's at something is standard military practice. Military command didn't exactly seem like it was in very much control either. So one would assume the entire army moving there, on it's own accord is also a strong possibility. Also, the combined forces were pretty tight together for the last god knows how many chapters anyway, what reason would they have to split up.

If there's anything illogical about the entire thing is them showing themselves; more precisely the ones not directly involved showing themselves. Though I assume that can be explained as simply there being no point to hiding and it being easier to watch each others back and coordinate attacks this way. No reason to hide if you're on the offensive, and defense is not really an option with nukes everywhere.
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Old 2012-11-29, 17:27   Link #87
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^What's the point of having an entire surprise attack division if you do not use them for their intended purpose? Or the Special forces division? Or even the Long-Range Battle Division (who, theoretically, should keep their distance in the battlefield)? There was no reason to send the entire armed forces into a battlefield without first knowing what is going on (and if they went of their own volition, then they are supremely stupid).

This is not a "bird's eye view" scenario, it is simple common sense.

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In my understanding she took control of Obito (bottom of page 12), but he broke out in 2 seconds.
I did not get that, so thanks for the clarification. And yes, it is cool that she combined techniques with Hinata to "capture" Obito (however briefly)...
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Old 2012-11-29, 17:46   Link #88
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Naruto is fighting, why would they send recon? Analyse how bad he's losing before moving in? For all we know they did actually send forward scouts, since they did came in relatively prepared to (in their mind) win; and they're position looked good (hills to fallback on, some high ground advantage, etc).

At the moment the situation is such that if Naruto & Bee lose, they all lose. There's no reason to skimp on forces since there is no "fallback plan". If Naruto or Bee had lost (since just one is useless) and they charged in with a bad position, they would be in trouble, but it wouldn't matter since they would have lost the war anyway (and everyone knows it). So yeah it's a risk, but doing nothing is the bigger risk; and there's no benefit to it.

Also showing force is powerful in itself. Yes, they are weak, but now Madara and Tobi have to think about all the various nonsense that can come at them, and to deal with the numbers have to play in very broad strokes, so while they still have the upper hand, there's room for counter attacks from Naruto and others—since it's already pretty much a given that Naruto and co can't out think Madara on their own in a million years.

Regarding the whole stealth aspect. Good luck sneaking in on two sharingan users perched over the most colossal behemoth in existence.
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Old 2012-11-29, 17:59   Link #89
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^I'm all for showing overwhelming force. I've said repeatedly now that every large summon beast should be employed (a large Toad division could do wonders right about now). 10,000 soldiers closely grouped together (the entire battlefield is only a mile or two in diameter) are far weaker than a few dozen Summon Beasts fighting the Jyuubi from all sides.

Additionally, why wouldn't the Ambush division be the ideal solution to this encounter? I know ninjas acting like ninjas is a bit unrealistic for this series, but damn if subterfuge wouldn't have been a great help right about now.

edit: As for their positioning...well when your opponent can gouge a hole out of the Earth that can be seen from space, the "hills to fall back on" plan doesn't really work...

Truthfully, taking down the Jyuubi could require a fairly simple battle plan. Get a small team of fliers in the air to draw the Jyuubi's attention, then get a small team working beneath the ground so that they can immobilize the Jyuubi's movements. Once it can't walk or run, they can start destroying the legs before working their way up the body. Naruto and a select few can be used the fight Madara and Obito (and honestly, Obito is going to fall far sooner than either the Jyuubi or Madara, especially since Kakashi now has full control of Kamui).

I do not dispute that Naruto needed extra forces to fight the Terrible Trio, rather I question the logic of using so many soldiers in a field that doesn't require such a number (and honestly is more likely a hindrance).

Last edited by james0246; 2012-11-29 at 18:14.
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Old 2012-11-29, 18:15   Link #90
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The idea of the army being cannon fodder would work if all they did was stand there.

If they actually do stuff, like moving around and actively attacking, especially if there is some strategy involved, it would be a different story.
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Old 2012-11-29, 18:40   Link #91
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As for their positioning...well when your opponent can gouge a hole out of the Earth that can be seen from space, the "hills to fall back on" plan doesn't really work...
They don't know this; most of them don't even understand the power of the 9 beasts let alone that thing. What you're referring to is suppose to be top secret. At best they know the details about Naruto. Regarding the other jinkiru-whatnot, they are apparently dead or trapped, going by the conversation with the monkey king.

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Get a small team of fliers in the air to draw the Jyuubi's attention
There is no airforce as far as I'm aware, unless this is some filler you've watched, which probably shouldn't count anyway. Them being in the air is of no use anyway; there's virtually no cover and we have no evidence to suggest any reasonably effective flying jutsu (other then Deidara's bombing runs).

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then get a small team working beneath the ground so that they can immobilize the Jyuubi's movements
Improbable.

First of all, they can't immobilize a mountain; the kage's maybe, these guys no. Their proficiency underground is also questionable; we've only seen it applied for sneaking, never for fighting. Secondly, we've already got enough evidence to suggest that sneaking isn't that usable against uchiha's since they can see chackra. Against Madara they might as well run yelling.

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Once it can't walk or run, they can start destroying the legs before working their way up the body.
You're played too many silly MMOs IMO. You can't just tickle it to death. If this thing could actually be destroyed don't you think the all mighty sage would have done so instead of hiding it's body up in the sky. Let's not forget that 8-tail and 9-tail are suppose to be the size of a small village, yet this thing is 100 times bigger? Their longest blades won't even make it 1/10th the way though the skin, let alone do damage to it. And even if say it was damaged, how long would it take for it to fully regenerate, with it having infinite chakra and all.

And if you're thinking about explosives, think about how effective the combined force of Naruto & Bee has been so far; and how Madara commented there's no need to even dodge or parry the shots.

Quote:
I do not dispute that Naruto needed extra forces to fight the Terrible Trio, rather I question the logic of using so many soldiers in a field that doesn't require such a number (and honestly is more likely a hindrance).
In the earlier fight with Madara (the meteor one), while Naruto cared, he didn't care enough to let it get in the way; if anything he tried harder, and the forces there helped keep his clone up and kicking for as much as possible. So the only risk of being a hidrence is from his buddies. Therefore, if we're thinking about eliminating hindrances, it's not that only his friends should be there, but rather, anyone but his friends should be there. However, his friends are probably the best the entire ninja army has to offer (with the kaje's now indisposed), so them becoming hostages and such is just a risk they have to take, if they want to have a chance to win. Never gonna win a war if you're not afraid to break some eggs.

I'm not saying there's not going to be energy wasted in "saving the army's sorry ass", but it's a case of the situation, unfavorable as it may be, still being way better then Naruto and Bee fighting it alone; especially now they're in recharge mode.
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Old 2012-11-29, 19:24   Link #92
james0246
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They don't know this; most of them don't even understand the power of the 9 beasts let alone that thing.
They entered the battlefield seeing the beast gouge a hole in the earth. And, if they didn't know it, that would go back to my initial 'complaint' that they should have sent in scouts...

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There is no airforce as far as I'm aware, unless this is some filler you've watched,
Sai can fly, so can Temari and Oonoki (though he's out of it right now). Deidara is the best flier we have seen, but there are others. And, there are Flying Beasts (Sasuke has the Crow Summoning contract, and I assume there could be others).

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Them being in the air is of no use anyway; there's virtually no cover
It's not about cover, but maneuverability.

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Improbable.

First of all, they can't immobilize a mountain; the kage's maybe, these guys no. Their proficiency underground is also questionable; we've only seen it applied for sneaking, never for fighting. Secondly, we've already got enough evidence to suggest that sneaking isn't that usable against uchiha's since they can see chackra. Against Madara they might as well run yelling.
Not really. There is an entire village devoted to use Earth ninjutsus, and we have already seen quite a few that could be used to destabilize the ground underneath the Jyuubi. Would it be a large hole? Yes. But still doable.

That being said, Naruto and his squad would deal with Madara, and Kakashi would take down Obito, effectively limiting the Uchiha's involvement in the fight.

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You're played too many silly MMOs IMO. You can't just tickle it to death.
Ant swarms do the same thing all the time to a variety of different exponentially larger animals. Size doesn't matter quite as much as you seem to think.

Additionally, they are not dealing with the actual Jyuubi, just most of it's chakra in a shell of a body.

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If this thing could actually be destroyed don't you think the all mighty sage would have done so instead of hiding it's body up in the sky.
As far as we know, the Rikudou-Sennin was the only supernatural fighting force in the world at the time of the Jyuubi's reign (Rikudou-Sennin did create ninjutsu after all, and he is credited with creating a use for chakra (since all chakra comes from the Jyuubi), so it stands to reason that there were no other shinobi around to combat the Jyuubi).

As for destroy...you are correct, that is probably the wrong word to use. Let's just stick with immobilize and incapacitate.

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Let's not forget that 8-tail and 9-tail are suppose to be the size of a small village, yet this thing is 100 times bigger?
I am unsure where you are getting these sizes from. At most the regular Bijuu appear to be 100 meters tall (if that), and the Jyuubi around 700 meters.

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Their longest blades won't even make it 1/10th the way though the skin, let alone do damage to it.
Why would you attack with just a blade?

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And even if say it was damaged, how long would it take for it to fully regenerate, with it having infinite chakra and all.
It doesn't have infinite chakra (the Hachibi and Kyuubi are still free after all), and we have no idea how the body regenerates or if it even can without all the Bijuu.

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I'm not saying there's not going to be energy wasted in "saving the army's sorry ass", but it's a case of the situation, unfavorable as it may be, still being way better then Naruto and Bee fighting it alone; especially now they're in recharge mode.
Never said alone, just not an entire army.

That being said, this conversation is becoming cyclical. I am bowing out.

Last edited by james0246; 2012-11-29 at 19:34.
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Old 2012-11-29, 20:21   Link #93
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The idea of the army being cannon fodder would work if all they did was stand there.

If they actually do stuff, like moving around and actively attacking, especially if there is some strategy involved, it would be a different story.
They did actively attack Madara and almost all of them died by 2 giant meteors
Sure those were only 1/5 of the whole army, but the army we see now are also the remains of the 80,000, which was only 40,000 after the 1st day, and then we didn't count how many have been killed by the Zetsu clones and Madara and some other Edo-Tensei guys of Kabuto. The 5 kages did much more damage to Madara than all the others, so i think most of the army is fodder. Then there are elite like Ino and Hinata who can be useful for 2 seconds Of course the generals should be strong, but all these guys can do is resist for a few minutes until the kyuubi and 8-tails regenerate their chakra so Naruto can make his next big move.

There are two things that should happen in order for the alliance to survive: the inclomplete 10-tails runs out of chakra and Madara somehow loses interest in this fight or Obito stops him. If it's not Obito who stops Madara then Naruto must get a powerup, otherwise he doesn't have any chance.
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Old 2012-11-29, 20:53   Link #94
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That being said, this conversation is becoming cyclical. I am bowing out.
Technically we've come to the conclusion that from a military standpoint they have some potential to be useful (plot willing), therefore they are not fodder with out use. However, we all agree they are red-shirts with equal potential to mess things up.

As for the portrayal in the story of their stratagems, behavior and competence as a military unit, I suppose going by our little discussion we can agree it's subjective depending on what you think is possible and what you would consider the correct course of action. Given the manga has run for 600+ chapters we all probably have our own relatively unique view on what is possible; since nothing is really explained in anything but relative terms and visual ques. Quite interesting.
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Old 2012-11-29, 23:39   Link #95
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In my understanding she took control of Obito (bottom of page 12), but he broke out in 2 seconds.
oh right on. thanks i didn't notice that either. it actually proves my point from last chapter about the juubi's eye (i think). the juubi may just have a normal beast eye, but it has a rinnegan/sharingan because obito summoned it and is controlling it. ino's brief capture proves he is in direct control of its actions like when he controlled the kyuubi with just a sharingan, which was also shown in the kyuubi's eye
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Old 2012-11-30, 01:39   Link #96
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How does a typhoon point towards Sasuke's fire/lightning chakra?
Typhoon/Storm whatever you wanna call it. Giving Sasuke water element would have been lame.
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Old 2012-11-30, 07:13   Link #97
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it actually proves my point from last chapter about the juubi's eye (i think). the juubi may just have a normal beast eye, but it has a rinnegan/sharingan because obito summoned it and is controlling it.
But it has it's own eye pattern, even when the Sage controlled it, not just the regular rinnegan pattern. Of course that doesn't invalidate your idea, which can make sense if we assume that those sharingan-like dots on top of the rinnegan pattern are just added to symbolize the 10 tails the beast has (i think there were 10 dots). I originally didn't take this possibility into account because the difference in the eye pattern and also because when Obito tells the story of the sage and the 10-tails we see the 10-tails with that eye pattern but it's never said that it is under the Sage's control on that manga page.
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Old 2012-11-30, 10:24   Link #98
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But it has it's own eye pattern, even when the Sage controlled it, not just the regular rinnegan pattern. Of course that doesn't invalidate your idea, which can make sense if we assume that those sharingan-like dots on top of the rinnegan pattern are just added to symbolize the 10 tails the beast has (i think there were 10 dots). I originally didn't take this possibility into account because the difference in the eye pattern and also because when Obito tells the story of the sage and the 10-tails we see the 10-tails with that eye pattern but it's never said that it is under the Sage's control on that manga page.
so, please if you will, clear this up for me...
the sage was BORN with the rinnegan.
the juubi (unsealed) has a concentric circles with nine sharingan like tomoe
the actual sharingan is a product of the uchiha lineage being born/created of "jinchuriki 10 tail sage"

this is what i have been thinking this entire time...
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Old 2012-11-30, 11:19   Link #99
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the sage was BORN with the rinnegan.
Where was that mentioned? If i remember correctly the only one who was talking a bit more in depth about the Sage was Tobito at the kage summit. Sure he said that the sage had the rinnegan, but we don't know if he originally had it or he got it only after sealing the 10-tails in himslf. All the information is from the secret Uchiha shrine, so if the author wants he can go both ways. We were led to believe that the rinnegan can manifest in random people like Nagato. But then it was discovered that Nagato never had the rinnegan, so what if neither the Sage was born with it. It's just an idea that has a good chance to be wrong. But i think that if the author wants to make it logical then it's either this or itachi-san314's explanation, simply because both the 10-tails and the sage having the rinnegan at the same time in history completely independently of each other doesn't make sense. Of course the author could create some back story where the 10-tails is an experiment of the Sage gone bad or both the Sage and the 10-tails have been created by someone else (for example they were created by some secret society that knows everything and Sasuke is right now seeking them) but that would mean a new story line which is unlikely in my opinon. Unless the manga needs new topics to continue for more years to come In that case it may be that new characters will be added to the story who are somehow related to the sage (which would make sense since saying that the sage was completely alone while creating the ninja world is nonsense, he at least had to have a wife to have his 2 children). In the end the 3rd logical way to have them both have rinnegan is that their existence was not unrelated, somehow the Sage and the 10-tails were related. Finding more answers about this will probably be Sasuke's job now.
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Old 2012-11-30, 12:31   Link #100
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Finding more answers about this will probably be Sasuke's job now.
Considering how Kishimoto treats we'll have to wait like 70 chapters to have him come back. No kidding, after Part I's (vol 27) end Sasuke was absent until volume 34. After his big arc and Itachi's death (vols 38-43), he was absent from three volumes, he then got a reappearance during vols 48-52, but did not return until vol 61
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