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View Poll Results: Sword Art Online - Episode 22 Rating
10 out of 10 : Near Perfect... 71 47.97%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 39 26.35%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 18 12.16%
7 out of 10 : Good... 9 6.08%
6 out of 10 : Average... 2 1.35%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 1 0.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 3 2.03%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 2 1.35%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.68%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 2 1.35%
Voters: 148. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-02, 18:58   Link #221
Dauerlutscher
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Not so easy when you're asked to prove your point huh?

Its easy to say anybody can replace so-and-so... Its something else when you're asked to actually say who.
It's easy. Replace her with any random guy/girl at the beginnig of ALO and make him Kiritos friend and nothing would have changed. It had not be especially Suguha in that role. That's the point.
So the question is why must it be especially Suguha in that place of the role of his friend in this arc, except to add a pointless and forced drama that Kirito is her cousin who will never return her feelings?
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:00   Link #222
GDB
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Yet, other than not liking what happened to her, there's no reason it didn't have to be her either. Funny how that works, huh?

Also, Suguha gives a connection to Kirito, since she started playing to understand him better. Wouldn't have that with some random.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:02   Link #223
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Not so easy when you're asked to prove your point huh?

Its easy to say anybody can replace so-and-so... Its something else when you're asked to actually say who.
I dont get the "replacing a character with someone else" thing. I just watch shows, I dont write, or know anything about writing, that's probably why. But honest question here: What exactly does the whole thing prove?

Yeah sure, go make a great argument that Suguha can be replaced by someone, what have you proved exactly?
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:03   Link #224
Oroboro
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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
It's easy. Replace her with any random guy/girl at the beginnig of ALO and make him Kiritos friend and nothing would have changed. It had not be especially Suguha in that role. That's the point.
But that IS the point. Because running right alongside Kirito's "Save the girl" narrative, is Suguha's own story. And her story isn't about Kirito, it's about herself.

You don't like Suguha's story? That's fine. Could Kirito's "Save the girl" story be done with any random guide? Yes. Maybe you like that story better, and would rather all the focus be put there. That's fine.

But the only person who can star in Suguha's story is Suguha, and if you chop that away, well, you chop away half of the story being told.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:07   Link #225
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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
It's easy. Replace her with any random guy/girl at the beginnig of ALO and make him Kiritos friend and nothing would have changed. It had not be especially Suguha in that role. That's the point.
What's stopping them from being 'easily replaced' as well? Also if you remembered my earlier post to you:

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Because a random new character is totally the way to do it...

Oh wait, isn't Suguha a new character as well?
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Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
Who said that a different character should be a new character that just got introduced?
...well apparently you did.

In the end, this is nothing more than you not liking Suguha, and wanting her to be replaced by someone else with no story.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2012-12-02 at 19:49.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:10   Link #226
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I suppose Dauerlutscher is arguing that Suguha's story gets in the way of the development of Kirito and Asuna's story? In a certain sense I suppose this is true as screen time is taken up to bust up some raid on a meeting of leaders that Sugu is angsting about that could be spent on developing Kirito's story and character for example. I guess its just a preference of whether one likes character development to be spread out amongst characters or to be concentrated and really well done?
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:13   Link #227
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But clearly Kirito cannot do this alone. He's going to need a lot of help. Cue the raid of two factions he just saved, and funded with his leftover SAO money (which for some reason he didn't think would benefit getting himself ancient weapons and armor), due solely to the fact that Leafa was with him.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:16   Link #228
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
But that IS the point. Because running right alongside Kirito's "Save the girl" narrative, is Suguha's own story. And her story isn't about Kirito, it's about herself.

You don't like Suguha's story? That's fine. Could Kirito's "Save the girl" story be done with any random guide? Yes. Maybe you like that story better, and would rather all the focus be put there. That's fine.

But the only person who can star in Suguha's story is Suguha, and if you chop that away, well, you chop away half of the story being told.
Quite true, Suguha is a main character in this arc. She's not like Klein or Agil in the previous arc who only showed up every few episodes. She's been in every episode, oh and she's one of the few characters who's point of view we see aside from Kirito's.

And I dont think the drama involving her feelings for Kirito/Kazuto are all that forced, sure there are probably better set-ups for this but also much, much worse. I could have told you Kirito's "little sister" either had feelings for him or was just simply fond of him back in episode 3.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:22   Link #229
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But clearly Kirito cannot do this alone. He's going to need a lot of help. Cue the raid of two factions he just saved, and funded with his leftover SAO money (which for some reason he didn't think would benefit getting himself ancient weapons and armor), due solely to the fact that Leafa was with him.
It could have just as easily worked out as a lonesome journey where against all odds he is able to overcome overwhelming adversity. Saving the two factions is just a plot device to lend Kirito help under the assumption that he needs help. With some strategic planning on how to fight the guardians (along with a truckload of health pots ) Kirito may very well be able to overcome that raid instance if they so chose to write it that way. All the other incidental stuff does is introduce more side characters that people may or may not care about.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:24   Link #230
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I don't know, I'm pretty sure a lot of people, myself included, would be beyond miffed if Kirito soloed what a raid in ancient equipment couldn't, in the equivalent of vendor trash. Especially after seeing how closely matched he was to the Salamander General.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:26   Link #231
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Hmmm... nothing else but the main characters/favorite pairing should matter...? Why does that sound familiar-

Oh shit it's the Nanoha series all over again !

And even some of the old timers are back !
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:29   Link #232
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Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
Or to put it another way, Lyfa could be replaced completely with multiple assorted plot pointers because that's all she achieves. The other part - you know, where she's an actual person - doesn't have any impact on anything. Her interactions produce no fruit other than producing a lack of fruit, and if you consider that important then so be it.
The "fruit" it produced is within her own heart, and for us as viewers to observe. It's a story about a girl who had to give up on her first love in the most bittersweet of ways. It is as much of a story in this arc as anything going on with Kirito and Asuna.

Basically, you're saying "your feelings for Kazuto never mattered because we (in the audience) knew all along that you stood no chance, so all you're doing is wasting our time". Is it really that hard to empathize with the story you're seeing unfold in "her life"? (Well, I guess it's pointless for me to ask this...)


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Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
Lyfa/Sugu certainly has her own story, but it's almost entirely contained within her head and it doesn't interact with the other parallel story of saving Asuna...at least not until the reveal.
It's completely connected to Asuna from start to finish. We get to know Suguha through the context of her rekindled relationship with Kazuto as he mourns his lack of power over Asuna's "imprisonment". She encourages him to be strong despite the fact that she realizes her love now will need to be abandoned (because any chance she had is gone). She decides to still be strong and be there for Kazuto as his sister while she comes face to face with the (apparently unconscious) girl who "stole" his heart. Meanwhile, in an effort to move on, she tries to focus more on her growing relationship with Kirito, who only came to ALO because he's hoping to find Asuna.

The two stories are fully interconnected, and it's a lot more than what was "contained within her head".

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Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
And the story itself is just "I love onii-chan but can't. I love Kirito but he's onii-chan." In Anime terms, Ep 17 to 21 is spent dragging out this one plot point over way too many events.
What actually happened is way more elaborate and nuanced than that trite summary. You've over-trivialized many episodes worth of development because you just don't care for them, not because there isn't anything happening there. And yet you rationalize Sugou because... because?

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Originally Posted by Vsin View Post
I don't quite consider Sugou to be an apt comparison. Sure, the guy is a painfully stereotypical villain with comedic henchmen, but at least he's a plot device. Stuff happens because he does things. You could replace him with something like a virus, Cardinal, etc, etc but he still fulfills the purpose of holding Asuna captive. The action creates a journey, despite the inevitable conclusion.
Even if you don't like Suguha as a character, she at least serves as a plot device that creates a journey that leads to a conclusion. But there's more to plot than just the physical plot of going from Point A to Point B (although she contributes to that too!). Indeed, Sugou could probably be replaced by another plot device that manages to prevent Asuna's release if you really wanted to. The story of Suguha's heartbreak requires Suguha.

Suguha's story has every element of a story that fully stands on its on. It's just intertwined in this story so that two connected stories are being told at the same time. You can't lop off one of the two stories and be like "this one doesn't matter!". It's as much a part of this story as everything else.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying you have to like it.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:32   Link #233
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I don't know, I'm pretty sure a lot of people, myself included, would be beyond miffed if Kirito soloed what a raid in ancient equipment couldn't, in the equivalent of vendor trash. Especially after seeing how closely matched he was to the Salamander General.
Isn't ALO supposed to be skill based? I mean he was one-two shotting enemies more or less easily with that vendor trash and there was some strange sequence at the end before Kirito died where he seemed to be under the assumption that if he could reach the top he could end the raid. Honestly, it would have been kind of badass to struggle through it alone where others have failed as a group. Reminds me of sequences like in Metal Gear and MGS4 where snake has to crawl across an electrified floor in an individual effort of pain and suffering to accomplish his goals. Snake is scarred, but mentally-fortified after such a harrowing experience which is a route the writers could have went with Kirito. I guess we just have to deal with teen angst now.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:35   Link #234
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and there was some strange sequence at the end before Kirito died where he seemed to be under the assumption that if he could reach the top he could end the raid.
Which is kind of odd, if you think about it. What makes him think that? If that's all it took, wouldn't any raid of considerable size already done it? Just meatshield around someone and you're guaranteed to get someone up there. Clearly that can't be the end of it.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:38   Link #235
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Suguha's story has every element of a story that fully stands on its on. It's just intertwined in this story so that two connected stories are being told at the same time. You can't lop off one of the two stories and be like "this one doesn't matter!". It's as much a part of this story as everything else.

Again, to be clear, I'm not saying you have to like it.
I think the entire argument here can be settled on this one point and I'm surprised so many people are missing the point you and others have been pointing out.

Many people do not care for Suguha's story and obviously nothing we say is going to change their minds. However, the disagreement stems from the assertion that somehow she could be written out of the story and that'd there be a negligible effect. That's simply untrue because this story has basically been all Suguha, not just how Kirito saves damsel in distress Asuna from the evil clutches of Suguo. What gives this arc its weight is Suguha's story more so than Kirito's, which isn't terribly interesting anyways.

This is not to say that there isn't something to be said about the frustration of some viewers here. A lot of viewers came to like SAO because of Kirito x Asuna, which dominated a lot of the first arc, and this arc feels like a cheap way to deprive them of their relationship in the story we are seeing so far. In that sense, you could see Suguha's story as an unnecessary diversion if your only goal in this series is to watch Kirito and Asuna. I still do not think this holds much weight in the end though because the story has definitely been about more than just Kirito and Asuna's romance.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:48   Link #236
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I still do not think this holds much weight in the end though because the story has definitely been about more than just Kirito and Asuna's romance.
I think it seems like unnecessary diversions because Kirito's ultimate goal in ALO is to save Asuna and Sugu seems to be distracting him from that goal. In SAO, the goal was to escape the game and over the course of that goal the story focused on Kirito's and Asuna's relationship (with asides for Lizbeth, Silica, Sachi and others which is kind of like filler, but ultimately serve to develop Kirito as a character). Honestly, I don't really mind it, but I don't see why Sugu couldn't be written out. It just makes it a detoured grind toward Kirito's ultimate goal. Concentrating on Kirito's journey does not have to be one-dimensional either with effective writing. Sugu's part of the story just seems to be frills to what Kirito is trying to do.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:51   Link #237
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I think it seems like unnecessary diversions because Kirito's ultimate goal in ALO is to save Asuna and Sugu seems to be distracting him from that goal. Honestly, I don't really mind it, but I don't see why Sugu couldn't be written out. It just makes it a detoured grind toward Kirito's ultimate goal. Concentrating on Kirito's journey does not have to be one-dimensional either with effective writing. Sugu's part of the story just seems to be frills to what Kirito is trying to do.
Because it's not ALL about Kirito, not everyone exist solely as a stepping stone for him.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:51   Link #238
Dauerlutscher
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Yet, other than not liking what happened to her, there's no reason it didn't have to be her either. Funny how that works, huh?
It would atleast not added this pointless and forced drama about her and not wasted episodes.

Quote:
Also, Suguha gives a connection to Kirito, since she started playing to understand him better. Wouldn't have that with some random.
Her story doesn't matter to the over all plot at all.

That her whole existantance in this arc was pointless and was only used to waste episodes on forced drama.


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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
But that IS the point. Because running right alongside Kirito's "Save the girl" narrative, is Suguha's own story. And her story isn't about Kirito, it's about herself.

You don't like Suguha's story? That's fine. Could Kirito's "Save the girl" story be done with any random guide? Yes. Maybe you like that story better, and would rather all the focus be put there. That's fine.

But the only person who can star in Suguha's story is Suguha, and if you chop that away, well, you chop away half of the story being told.
It's exactly that choping away her story would not change anything to the plot, that makes her story pointless.

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
What's stopping them from being 'easily replaced' as well?
Have more influence on Kirito and the plot.

Quote:
...well apparently you did.
What i meant was who said that a different character should be a new character that just got introduced in this episode or an episode ago.
He/she would obviously be introduced at the beginning of this arc, but without the baggage of this fiasoc of forced drama.


Quote:
In the end, this is nothing more than you not liking Suguha.
Suguha is a pretty nice girl. It's just the role she is playing that is annyoing me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makender View Post
I suppose Dauerlutscher is arguing that Suguha's story gets in the way of the development of Kirito and Asuna's story? In a certain sense I suppose this is true as screen time is taken up to bust up some raid on a meeting of leaders that Sugu is angsting about that could be spent on developing Kirito's story and character for example. I guess its just a preference of whether one likes character development to be spread out amongst characters or to be concentrated and really well done?
That's the point. It would have ben ok if this thing with Suguha would not have taken so much episode and would not have ben so blantaly used for the sake of drama.
There are couple of other posts that also explain what I'm trying to say.
For example Vsin or from Klashikari:
Spoiler for Vsin:


This thread has 12 pages and everything that had to be said was said a couple of times already. For me, this arguing for arguing sake is just as pointless like this Suguha story thing. It's tiring, it doesn't go anywhere and I have no intention to continue with this debate. So lets move on from it. It has ended anyway.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:57   Link #239
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Her story doesn't matter to the over all plot at all.
Suguha's. Story. IS The. Plot.

You don't have to like that, but that's the truth.
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Old 2012-12-02, 19:58   Link #240
Makender
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Because it's not ALL about Kirito, not everyone exist solely as a stepping stone for him.
Why can't it be? Side characters can serve as one time stories that develop Kirito and his story without becoming the new focus of the story. Honestly, having two focuses (unless really well written) can just serve to bog down the other focus. Then we just have two muddled through stories.
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