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Old 2013-04-22, 04:03   Link #1261
totoum
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@TinyRedLeaf

Oh,I can understand him not being likable,it's more Creb's mention of the name Naruto I take issue with (that makes me sound like I hate Naruto but I really don't )


It's just that to me you're using a very broad template there,so I guess if I go by that template I can see where you're coming from.
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Old 2013-04-22, 05:12   Link #1262
Ottocycle
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Originally Posted by playmaker2k View Post
On a related note, I need to know the name of that song playing at the very end of this episode.

I want that shot into my veins.

Can anybody confirm if that was Steve Conte of GiTS fame?
No it's not him. It's mpi, last heard in Guilty Crown episode 14.
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Old 2013-04-22, 05:12   Link #1263
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You will be.
Thanks. That sounds good to me.

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The ship has already sailed.
Eren X Armin ftw!
Well, um... abandon ship!
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Old 2013-04-22, 05:27   Link #1264
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
He's not very likeable, either, because of the way he treats Mikasa (but that's something I can well understand; to him, she's an annoying know-it-all who contradicts him or shows him up at every turn).
Although he acts that way towards Mikasa, at least it's pretty clear that he trusts and cares for her a lot. She usually does not talk very much but whenever she does talk, Eren might act a bit aggressive at times but he clearly listens to her. In general, she's the type that prevents Eren from crossing the line and so far, is also one of the few people who kept him alive.

Sasha... I just don't know what to say about her... anime version or manga version, she's still crazy.
Was a bit afraid they would remove the scene with Chrisa and that other girl and their interactions with Sasha. Glad they kept it. Now next up we get some stuff that focuses on Annie! Yeah!
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Old 2013-04-22, 06:08   Link #1265
Randrak42
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Action
Horror
Fantasy
Tragedy

These are the four tags best fit for this show and it stays true to them.

That is all I'm gonna say about that.
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Old 2013-04-22, 06:28   Link #1266
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Ugh we need a sub-forum. There are too many hints about what you can and can't expect.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2013-04-22 at 06:45.
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Old 2013-04-22, 10:55   Link #1267
Ridwan
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:05   Link #1268
frodonk
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Tags: Potato. nice!

anyway, I would like to pick up from what I posted on page 48 (I think)

Rather than talk about how people could've just lived in caves/tunnels and plant food on the surface, I was thinking more along the lines of what happened in episode 1 and 2.

Was it really hard to dig at least one escape tunnel from the middle of the town into inside wall maria? that way most people would've had somewhere to go in cases of emergencies. Although i get the effect they wanted to convey when they showed people panicking and running around when the titans finally breached the wall, didn't they have the foresight to at least have one proper escape plan rather than just telling people to run for the ships and the gates?

We saw that the ships were not enough to carry all the people in the town to the inner area. Was it really hard to make a bunker near the escape routes so that people won't be eaten while waiting for the ships to return? based on what was shown, if even 1 titan was near the ships when eren/mikasa were trying to board, people won't have anywhere to hide and will just have to wait to be eaten.

Yeah sure, we could say that "there haven't been a titan attack inside the walls for 100 years" so they haven't thought about these, but putting the questions on how the wall was built and where people lived before it was built aside, can't they at least have all the houses in town dig a small tunnel/basement where they can pass through underground until they are near the gates of the inner wall? this is assuming that the foundations of the walls are so deep that they can't dig under them. can't they just make tunnels up until right next to the wall? that way nobody will be eaten, and the titans AFAIK can't dig out people to eat them (like ants in an anthill.)

lastly, it was said that the purposes of the towns on the periphery of wall maria was to draw titans so that the main walls could be lightly defended, if they built the town with that in mind, i'm surprised that they didn't think of an evacuation plan once one of those titans finally goes through the wall. its not like they're not expecting it at all.

anyway, rant over.
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:22   Link #1269
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
Sasha is a bumbling cute character that seems innocent and somewhat oblivious.

She's like the soldier in a war movie that smiles too much and talks about his girlfriend back home that he plans to marry after the war is over.

She has a massive bulls-eye painted on her forehead, you realize that right? If anyone dies, she'll probably be the first. And in the most gruesome way possible.
Yeah I know, but having slightly positive outlook, doesn't always necessary mean her chance of death is that much higher than everyone else (well other Eren and Mikasa anyway). So I choose still to believe.

*folds arms*
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:24   Link #1270
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:25   Link #1271
Ridwan
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:28   Link #1272
desrtsku
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BTW ... Why is there a freaking potato tag?
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:38   Link #1273
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
Tags: Potato. nice!

Was it really hard to dig at least one escape tunnel from the middle of the town into inside wall maria? that way most people would've had somewhere to go in cases of emergencies. Although i get the effect they wanted to convey when they showed people panicking and running around when the titans finally breached the wall, didn't they have the foresight to at least have one proper escape plan rather than just telling people to run for the ships and the gates?

We saw that the ships were not enough to carry all the people in the town to the inner area. Was it really hard to make a bunker near the escape routes so that people won't be eaten while waiting for the ships to return? based on what was shown, if even 1 titan was near the ships when eren/mikasa were trying to board, people won't have anywhere to hide and will just have to wait to be eaten.
anyway, rant over.
Even with tunnel a people would have still died due to the risk of a cave in.

I actually I don't think the issue wasn't not having enough ships either, but rather the Armored Titan destroying the gate before everyone else could finish escaping. That Titan seem to have far more strength, speed and intelligence than the others which is beyond what evacuation procedures were prepared for.
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:39   Link #1274
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
@Frodo read the manga.
No need. Sufficient information is available to make several educated guesses.

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Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
Yeah sure, we could say that "there haven't been a titan attack inside the walls for 100 years" so they haven't thought about these.
The inertia that comes from 100 years of accumulated complacency isn't as easy to overcome as you may think. Singapore was once considered an impregnable fortress, the British Empire's bastion in the Far East. But it was conquered, from the north, through thick jungles that the British never expected an invader to exploit.

From Ep1, we already have the impression that people weren't very happy to be "throwing away" their taxes on futile reconnaissance missions beyond Wall Maria. So, it's not difficult to imagine that people being leery about spending money on underground fortifications that they didn't seem to need. Of course, everything changed once Wall Maria was breached. But hindsight is always 20/20.

Then, there's hubris. The Titanic had enough lifeboats for only one-third of its total capacity. Even then, those lifeboats were considered extraneous at the time, because the ship was touted to be "unsinkable". Well, again, hindsight is always 20/20, is it not?

The above is just me trying to rationalise the story's premise. I understand your criticisms, but let's just put them down to details that the mangaka didn't think through very thoroughly.

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Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
Was it really hard to dig at least one escape tunnel from the middle of the town into inside wall maria? that way most people would've had somewhere to go in cases of emergencies. Although i get the effect they wanted to convey when they showed people panicking and running around when the titans finally breached the wall, didn't they have the foresight to at least have one proper escape plan rather than just telling people to run for the ships and the gates?
Based on what Eren explained early in Ep2, Shiganshina is designed to bait titans, drawing them away from the other parts of Wall Maria, thus allowing the Stationary Troops to focus their limited resources around the town.

I would guess that the contingency, in case a "pocket town" like Shiganshina (there were 12 in total, four on the perimeter of each Wall) falls, would be to funnel the invading titans along a single route and a single exit (not counting the river). Again, in theory, this would allow the soldiers to maximise their stretched resources, as they would need to defend only one axis of movement.

Evidently, the military planners did not consider how such a design could also turn into a deathtrap should a breach occur. More likely than not, though, they never expected a Wall to fall so quickly — no one knew that colossal- and armoured-class titans existed, so no one planned for them. That's the way complacency works.

And if you find that hard to believe, remember that even in real-life, armies the world over are being trained to fight the previous war. It's not that no one knows that future warfare would be different, but when you don't know exactly it would look, it's difficult to devise effective training routines to meet a "future" threat.
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:56   Link #1275
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Evidently, the military planners did not consider how such a design could also turn into a deathtrap
When you see how the refugees were treated it makes you wonder if they knew but didn't care.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:13   Link #1276
frodonk
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Even with tunnel a people would have still died due to the risk of a cave in.
they could build a 50 meter tall wall kilometers long but they can't make a single tunnel that doesn't have the risk of caving in? seems farfetched. (assuming that humans built the wall of course, I wouldn't know, I haven't and won't read the source material)

Quote:
From Ep1, we already have the impression that people weren't very happy to be "throwing away" their taxes on futile reconnaissance missions beyond Wall Maria. So, it's not difficult to imagine that people being leery about spending money on underground fortifications that they didn't seem to need. Of course, everything changed once Wall Maria was breached. But hindsight is always 20/20.
while it is true that people were indeed complacent that titans won't breach the walls, I find it hard to believe that they didn't have any other defense/escape plans from way back before they became complacent. the statement that no attack has happened in 100 years means that there were attacks before, and I find it hard to believe that they didn't have other plans before apart from running towards the inner walls.

Quote:
Based on what Eren explained early in Ep2, Shiganshina is designed to bait titans, drawing them away from the other parts of Wall Maria, thus allowing the Stationary Troops to focus their limited resources around the town.
I'm aware of that, and it is precisely that reason that makes me think how come they didn't have a more concrete plan of escaping once the titans make it inside? They made the towns specifically to lure the titans to them, so they should've been more prepared for a titan invasion than any other human territory and more prepared than what was shown in ep1 and 2.

Quote:
Again, in theory, this would allow the soldiers to maximise their stretched resources, as they would need to defend only one axis of movement.
This could only work if they really consider the outer towns to be pawns and sacrifices to keep the inner areas secure, since from what was shown humans cannot really fight the titans head on and expect to win, once the wall was breached, the area will have to be abandoned.

well, it was vividly shown that inner area citizens really consider people from the outer towns to be a drain to their resources so poor planning and complacency on their part is understandable. but for those living on the "bait" towns and the outer areas, i find it hard to believe that they haven't done anything else to ensure their survival by themselves other than relying on the walls.

In the end I guess I agree with the explanation that they didn't expect the colossal and the armored titan to breach the wall so quickly, that's why they were caught off guard.

I still wonder about that explosion before the colossal titan showed up though. I guess it will be revealed later.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:26   Link #1277
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
they could build a 50 meter tall wall kilometers long but they can't make a single tunnel that doesn't have the risk of caving in? seems farfetched. (assuming that humans built the wall of course, I wouldn't know, I haven't and won't read the source material)
That's the thing though. We don't know how those Walls themselves were built, so we can't say those methods that lead to their creation could be applied elsewhere.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:27   Link #1278
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but for those living on the "bait" towns and the outer areas, i find it hard to believe that they haven't done anything else to ensure their survival by themselves other than relying on the walls.
You are talking as if there aren't escape routes or escape plans. There are at least two of them. While they were expecting titans to attack and they were prepared to a remote possibility of titan invasion they were certainly not prepared to a blitzkrieg. Nobody suspected that a gate could be breached that quickly. At least not the normal population for what we've seen.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:35   Link #1279
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
I find it hard to believe that they didn't have any other defense/escape plans from way back before they became complacent. the statement that no attack has happened in 100 years means that there were attacks before, and I find it hard to believe that they didn't have other plans before apart from running towards the inner walls.
As you said, once a wall is breached, a district would be as good as lost, so it does appear that the plan is to execute a retrograde mission. The soldiers are supposed to hold off the advancing titans long enough for civilians to evacuate. And I believe the river gate was meant to be the alternative exit, so I think there was at least some attempt to provide a backup should a disaster occur.

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Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
I'm aware of that, and it is precisely that reason that makes me think how come they didn't have a more concrete plan of escaping once the titans make it inside? They made the towns specifically to lure the titans to them, so they should've been more prepared for a titan invasion than any other human territory and more prepared than what was shown in ep1 and 2.
That's the reason for Eren's anger in Ep1, was it not? The soldiers should have been more prepared, but they weren't, because they never believed that there was any danger of combat so long as the walls stood. Thematically, that is the point of the story: complacency kills. Yes, it's terribly simplistic, but this is a shounen manga after all.

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This could only work if they really consider the outer towns to be pawns and sacrifices to keep the inner areas secure.
As totoum observed, that might not be far from the truth. It's clear that the refugees were considered a burden. And human life is cheap when a kingdom can afford to throw away 250,000 people it could no longer feed.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:37   Link #1280
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I think they also figured that if a 50m tall titan came marching in,they'd see it coming and they could have time to start evacuating before he got to the wall, but nobody saw it coming.
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