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Old 2013-04-12, 18:27   Link #441
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The last time I tried to explained this it went into spoiler territory, so sadly, I cannot. I also noticed you did nothing to refute my machine gun analogy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
No... there really isn't. Did we play the same game, or are you basing your knowledge off other games like the first one and assuming it's the same? He is not the king of bel.

Hibiki is a protagonist that's supposed to be praised for his strength of character. He's supposed to be a charismatic lead in a cast full of uniquely strong characters. The reason why a commander-in-chief of a large government organization was interested in such a common citizen like Hibiki isn't because he has a machinegun - it's because he is supposed to prove himself as one of the most competent characters, being able to use his properly and direct others to use theirs to the best of their ability as well. The early Yamato normally wouldn't give them the time of day, nor would he entrust them with top secret information so easily.

Once again, there is no excuse for why Daichi and Io were written to be conveniently unable to fight. They could have all played an important role, with Hibiki keeping his position as protagonist by coordinating a team attack between the three. They don't all have to powerhouse through - Io could even stay back and heal Byakko at Hibiki's command. At least this way all of them could have shined with Hibiki still being the brightest of the bunch.
The problem I have with the "machine gun" isn't the gun itself. The gun looks amazing and does its job.

The issue is that people taking the gun and making the logical fallacy that because the other people have weaker weapons and tools, they are worthless and therefore it's perfectly fine for them to do nothing at all.

Once again, how about having them all pull their own weight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
Urgh, and here's the reason behind everyone's problems. Let's get this straight; Kishi is not literally adapting the game for you, but the NARRATIVE. And so far, he's ticking off the key plot point check list well enough, even if the details are different, even if events don't go the same way.
My gripe is with the narrative. I don't understand why it's so difficult for you grasp this. It's like there's some sort of inferiority paranoia complex where I'm out to address every minute difference between the two mediums.

If you really want me to fit that notion, then I could address how the summoners couldn't use any spells themselves, or why they didn't show a demon auction, or why the Anguished One already has an appearance this early in the story.
But those aren't major issues, nor is it the focus of the problems I see with the narrative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
If we wanted to care so much about every last detail, we'd play the freaking game already. Don't attach preconcieved notions about the game to an anime's take on material. It's not the same thing as literally adapting a manga or book that already has a structured narrative for a director to take from, because the game's narrative is broken up, segmented to follow the player's progression.
First, you do realize that from this first statement, you are implying that the anime is nothing more than a poorly written cliffnotes/sparknotes of the source material that isn't strong enough to stand on its own, right? I'm well aware this is an advertisement for the games.

What I'm expecting from this what I expected from any other anime regardless of whether it has source material to follow - a strong narrative in motion that can move on its own. You telling me that I would need the source material to understand everything would imply that the anime is crippled, unable to stand without support from its source material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
It's not the same thing as literally adapting a manga or book that already has a structured narrative for a director to take from, because the game's narrative is broken up, segmented to follow the player's progression.
The game still has a narrative. If a JRPG of all genre of games doesn't have a structured narrative, I don't know what else to say.

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Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
And we're only two episodes in people! Two episodes in! What's to say what Kishi will include, and what he trims out? We've still got a good 11 episodes to go!
You do realize that this doesn't actually refute my point that the anime's narrative has been poor this episode, right?

All your statement implies to me is something along the lines of "it is poor now, but don't worry because it'll get better later!"


Finally, my main gripe with Hibiki's Byakko has always been this:

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Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
Your points in Daichi and Io though, are fair enough. There's very little balance to the character dynamics at present.
I don't know why people think it's fine for Daichi and Io lose their contributions then suddenly point fingers at me for nitpicking differences in the game when this is a flaw that would stand out even without the source material.
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Old 2013-04-12, 18:43   Link #442
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
The problem I have with the "machine gun" isn't the gun itself. The gun looks amazing and does its job.

The issue is that people taking the gun and making the logical fallacy that because the other people have weaker weapons and tools, they are worthless and therefore it's perfectly fine for them to do nothing at all.

Once again, how about having them all pull their own weight?
First of all, I apologize, I kind of glanced over that paragraph and probably missed it.

Of course, now you are taking the machine gun a little too far. Since owning a machine gun isn't indicative of someone's potential, whereas summoning Byakko is, obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
What I'm expecting from this what I expected from any other anime regardless of whether it has source material to follow - a strong narrative in motion that can move on its own. You telling me that I would need the source material to understand everything would imply that the anime is crippled, unable to stand without support from its source material.
I am unsure what you are referring to with this. So far the story seems to stand pretty well on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
The game still has a narrative. If a JRPG of all genre of games doesn't have a structured narrative, I don't know what else to say.
I dunno what JRPG's YOU played then, but the ones I played often feature storyline scenes connected together by gameplay segments of varying length.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
You do realize that this doesn't actually refute my point that the anime's narrative has been poor this episode, right?
If that's what you think, there's not really anything I can do about it, but I disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
All your statement implies to me is something along the lines of "it is poor now, but don't worry because it'll get better later!"
Not quite sure about this but I don't think that's what they meant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I don't know why people think it's fine for Daichi and Io lose their contributions then suddenly point fingers at me for nitpicking differences in the game when this is a flaw that would stand out even without the source material.
I guess all the chosen children except Taichi in Digimon Adventure were useless, because after two whole episodes, only Taichi was the one who managed to evolve.
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Old 2013-04-12, 19:19   Link #443
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I guess all the chosen children except Taichi in Digimon Adventure were useless, because after two whole episodes, only Taichi was the one who managed to evolve.
Once again, missing the point. All of the digimon attempted to do something to help out.

Both Daichi and Io tried something in episode 1. This is nowhere to be found in episode 2. Io didn't even bother checking her demons like Daichi did.

I don't even know if you're addressing my points anymore or just getting defensive.

Bottom line: prove to me Daichi and Io weren't useless this episode, specifically the church scene. I don't like how that was handled, nor do I believe Daichi and Io should have been powerless to do anything. Byakko does not excuse this. Unless I'm mistaken, I have a basis for my dissatisfaction.
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Old 2013-04-12, 19:24   Link #444
com_gwp
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I can't be assed to quote hahahaha. Can't into forum argument.

Shadow, I don't know how you see it when you're writing it yourself, but your arguments always appear to be heavily criticizing the alterations made to the development of the characters and the developments of the narrative. If you are not biased by your preconceptions, then pray tell, why the comparisions? You're not showing objectivity in your arguments when you bring out "what was suppose to be", when in fact, there's nothing objectively wrong with how they're presenting the Hibiki and Yamato relationship. It's a pretty generic start, sure, but you're referencing a relationship development that spanned the course of almost half the game when we've only just seen the start of it in the anime. How's that being fair? And that same thing applies to the rest of your argument; you have the scope of the entire game's narrative and you're comparing it to an anime that's barely begun, where the scope of Kishi's vision for it still hasn't been fully understood. How is that fair?

Sure, there are iffy spots, and that's where I agree with your point on Daichi and Io. Character dynamics aren't being balanced well at all. And I kinda wrote that after being so frustrated with all the game comparisons. I swear, it was the same thing back when P4A was airing. Not exactly my most well-thought out argument, but my point on this still stands.

Last edited by com_gwp; 2013-04-12 at 19:39.
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Old 2013-04-12, 19:38   Link #445
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by com_gwp View Post
I can't be assed to quote hahahaha. Can't into forum argument.

Shadow, I don't know how you see it when you're writing it yourself, but your arguments always appear to be heavily criticizing the alterations made to the development of the characters and the developments of the narrative. If you are not biased by your preconceptions, then pray tell, why the comparisions? You're not showing objectivity in your arguments when you bring out "what was suppose to be", when in fact, there's nothing objectively wrong with how they're presenting the Hibiki and Yamato relationship. It's a pretty generic start, sure, but you're referencing a relationship development that spanned the course of almost half the game when we've only just seen the start of it in the anime. How's that being fair? And that same thing applies to the rest of your argument; you have the scope of the entire game's narrative and comparing it to an anime's that's barely began, where the scope of Kishi's vision for it still hasn't been fully understood. How is that fair?

And I kinda wrote that after being so frustrated with all the game comparisons. I swear, it was the same thing back when P4A was airing. Not exactly my most well-thought out arguement, but my point still stands.
See previous post.

I admit I got frustrated as well, but my point behind Hibiki was that he shouldn't be the only gifted character out of all his friends but the most competent in a group of already competent friends.

I don't like they way they're elevating Hibiki's "gifted" status, because it gives the audience reason think it's fine Daichi and Io stay on the sidelines. From an anime only standpoint, they're forgettable side characters. The problem is that they're not side characters.


If I wanted it to be faithful to the game, I would be complaining why there is that church scene at all. Instead however I'm suggesting that they could handled it in a better way by letting Daichi and Io help out. Why can't they? No one seems to actually answer this question. I'm not saying the entire anime is going to be garbage or something; just that this episode is not a strong start.
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Old 2013-04-12, 19:43   Link #446
com_gwp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
See previous post.
See edits.

I'm not disagreeing on this point because it is an objective flaw when character dynamics aren't being balanced well. Though to be fair on Io, she's acting pretty much as a disaster victim would after seeing her home area destroyed, and they did shape her up by the end of it.
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Old 2013-04-12, 21:16   Link #447
Hitenma
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So the second episode is mostly about portraying the characters and how they react when they know the situation.
I like how they made Hibiki resolute to fight without making it cheesy.
Yeah, the world is going to end, running away is not an option so why don't we just face it and see what we can do. For me it's realistic enough.

We still don't know much about the setting though, other than the world is being threatened by the demons (don't remember the name) from other world/dimension.
JP is our world's defender but their leader, Yamato, is an ambiguous character (are they trying to make him look suspicious?). He was having a chit chat with the mysterious guy who spoke mysterious things and another guy was shown vowing to stop him.
What will happen next? Let's see how it get unfold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
And then the anime only audience's interest is piqued not because of the anime itself, but because it's successfully serves as shameless promotion for the source material.
Don't know about others but I continue to watch this because I like the first and the second episodes. Whether the game is better or not is irrelevant.
IMHO I think people should stop comparing the anime and the game. They are different media.
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Old 2013-04-12, 22:17   Link #448
Angelic Cross
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Originally Posted by Hitenma View Post
IMHO I think people should stop comparing the anime and the game. They are different media.
An ADAPTATION by its very nature invites comparison with the original work. Anyone who wants to watch them should know that coming in and if a person can't stand that, then they shouldn't go watching adaptations and should stick to original works.
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Old 2013-04-12, 22:57   Link #449
jeroz
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Io got a very symbolic scene later on where she can shine, Daichi is vital to the ending if they decide to go for what I think is the most probable one. If the anime pace properly they could still have time to be important in the overall structure of things.

This episode is about Hibiki's resolution, not about "hey we are this same group". Yes you can question the writer's decision to focus on solely Hibiki in this episode, starting with the preferential treatment when they get into JPs headquarter. Also they would have to upgrade/evolve/fusion for higher level demons later on, Byakko is not good enough for the final boss.

To be honest though, even in the game I don't really care about either Daichi nor Io unless it's their vital scene in the overall story, I'm more interested in the Nagoya group. Heck, the first ending I went to is AO's one since I thought we were buddies and didn't realise how difficult it would be.

Again, you shouldn't have too much of an expectation to begin with since they announced that it's going to be 13eps. Some parts will have to be sacrificed for the sake of time.
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Old 2013-04-13, 00:54   Link #450
duckroll
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Airi where? Show's pretty slow, and kinda boring. Needs Airi to spice it up. If they're spending 3 whole episodes on Monday, the rest of the plot is going to be sooo rushed with 9 episodes left after that.
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Old 2013-04-13, 04:36   Link #451
jeroz
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I seriously have no idea how they are gonna attempt to fit everything within just 13 eps
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Old 2013-04-13, 05:29   Link #452
duckroll
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I wonder if it could really be a split-cours show. If they give each full day 3 episodes, then 13 episodes would end with Day 5. The events on that day are also pretty climatic in terms of action, while leading in to the final stage of the story. That would give then 4 episodes per day for the final 3 days of the story if they have another 12 episode season in Fall.

Incidentally, from all the trailers they have released on the show so far, I don't think I've seen anything beyond Day 5... Hmm...

I guess the alternative is that they could be doing one episode for Day 1, three episodes for Day 2, two episodes each for Day 3-5, and then one episode each for Day 6-8. Lol!
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Old 2013-04-13, 05:35   Link #453
Dengar
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One or two eps per day. Forget about all the random irrelevant moments. It ain't rocket science.

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Originally Posted by Angelic Cross View Post
An ADAPTATION by its very nature invites comparison with the original work. Anyone who wants to watch them should know that coming in and if a person can't stand that, then they shouldn't go watching adaptations and should stick to original works.
Comparing what's different is one thing.

Complaining about differences of which the clear cause is the difference in media, is just childish.
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Old 2013-04-13, 05:47   Link #454
duckroll
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One or two eps per day. Forget about all the random irrelevant moments. It ain't rocket science.
If that were the case though, why would they be spending 3 entire episodes on Day 2 by adding more "random irrelevant" moments into it? Seems like a pacing issue at this point. There are actually more important character and story events later in the story than earlier in the story, so by expanding the early stuff at the expense of the having to rush the later events... it just seems like a bad adaptation.

Then again, this is the director of Persona 4 the Animation, so I guess that shouldn't be surprising to anyone! :P
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Old 2013-04-13, 06:23   Link #455
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This 'pacing issue' that you've mentioned of it's solely because you compared it to game. There's nothing wrong with the pacing for me since it didn't go full WTF moment that made you confused on what's actually happening in the anime. You still get the sense of progression in these two episodes; you see Hibiki manning up then made his decision. We also get a sense of what's happening in the world without cramming up too much information to handle.

The more important character and story events might be linked up in later episodes with some original plot lines that still retains some of the game story. Let's say that a certain important event in later days will then be connected with Io's development as a character. I can see that's happening in 1-2 episode that doesn't feel rushed at all. I can even see Airi and Hinako development crammed up in one episode if you cooperate it with main plot too

Of course that is, if you're not hoping too much that it will stay the same as the game.

Honestly, does any viewers that haven't played the game yet feels that it's rushed at this point? If it's so then I stand corrected.
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Old 2013-04-13, 07:42   Link #456
Dengar
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If that were the case though, why would they be spending 3 entire episodes on Day 2 by adding more "random irrelevant" moments into it?
Seems to me like Day 2 concludes during the next episode O_o
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Old 2013-04-13, 08:26   Link #457
duckroll
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Seems to me like Day 2 concludes during the next episode O_o
Nope. Day 2 ends in ep4.

I want to see Airi... hurry up anime... >_<
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Old 2013-04-13, 09:07   Link #458
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Originally Posted by Von Himmel View Post
Honestly, does any viewers that haven't played the game yet feels that it's rushed at this point? If it's so then I stand corrected.
Anime-only viewer here to give her opinion. No, I don't feel that the pacing is off. It's neither too fast paced nor too slow. The first episode introduced me to some of the character cast and a healthy dose of action. The second episode introduced me to the story's world, more characters, and a dose of action. That seemed about right to me.
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Last edited by LKK; 2013-04-13 at 12:27.
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Old 2013-04-13, 09:22   Link #459
jeroz
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I think people are worried about the upcoming content when they complain about the pacing. If you come in blind, yes the first two episodes is doing a decent job telling a story. We are just extremely worried as to how this show will end up
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Old 2013-04-13, 14:34   Link #460
Dengar
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Originally Posted by duckroll View Post
Nope. Day 2 ends in ep4.
Doesn't seem that way to me, but supposing for a second that it's true, that's still 8 whole episodes left.


That said, time IS short and some people might feel it's "rushed" in the end. But uhh, it's too early to say it's "rushed", because it's just the second episode. I'd advise you to not complain about stuff that hasn't happened yet.
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