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Old 2013-06-28, 15:18   Link #1081
Angelic Cross
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
No I think his ultimate motivation was to create a "good world" but he just decided what that was based on having the capabilities to govern, so no I fail to see how that is Saturday morning cartoonish.
And what, then in your view did the anime present Yamato's "good world" as, the criteria for it? Articulate it, if you will. "Having the capabilities to govern" is pretty much the meritocracy Blizzard described, which you said wasn't how the anime presented it.
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Old 2013-06-28, 15:30   Link #1082
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*forever believing Polaris is secretly an self entitled snob who can't understand a.k.a. actually fears humanity more like almost every SMT god ever*

And we don't have any guarantee his anime motivation was really different either. Not like anyone actually let him talk or bothered to listen and he was all putting on bad boy airs himself. Besides following the governments will, it's more like whenever someone accused him of something he just went "sou da" even if they were just barely technically right (killing Mako-chin and Alcor anyone?) And the V.A. makes it ridiculously easy to tell when he's doing this or outright lying/tsun tsun-ning (oh my god Suwabe how even) so my bet is on this.

Either way I'm just going to take the flashbacks, Alcor properly owning up to ruining Yamato and maybe some parts of the last episode from this show and pretend rest of it never existed. It was nice to see some of my favorite demons out there too, even if only as fusion materials.
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Old 2013-06-28, 15:37   Link #1083
Angelic Cross
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Originally Posted by Blizzard View Post
*forever believing Polaris is secretly an self entitled snob who can't understand a.k.a. actually fears humanity more like almost every SMT god ever*
Eh, I don't know man. Strange Journey pretty much had both the Law and Chaos sides confirm that the Great Will beat the crap out of the Chaos forces and then gave rulership of the earth to humanity while keeping the Chaos dudes off of humanity's back; the relationship only soured because of humanity going "We are totally awesome and don't need you anymore" and the Great Will got pissed of for humans not being bro anymore.
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Old 2013-06-28, 15:44   Link #1084
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Originally Posted by Angelic Cross View Post
Eh, I don't know man. Strange Journey pretty much had both the Law and Chaos sides confirm that the Great Will beat the crap out of the Chaos forces and then gave rulership of the earth to humanity while keeping the Chaos dudes off of humanity's back; the relationship only soured because of humanity going "We are totally awesome and don't need you anymore" and the Great Will got pissed of for humans not being bro anymore.
*almost*

The ones who don't roll with the monotheistic god theme usually turn out more neutral too like P4 Izanami.
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Old 2013-06-28, 19:05   Link #1085
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I'm not sure what people find alluring about a world where people are left in the gutter just because they're "weak".
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Old 2013-06-28, 19:34   Link #1086
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I'm not sure what people find alluring about a world where people are left in the gutter just because they're "weak".
Are we SERIOUSLY doing this AGAIN? Oh no, not I. I will retire. *flies off to Timor* I don't care who else bothers.
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Old 2013-06-28, 21:56   Link #1087
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Well I think it's impossible to have a legitimate debate with those who have played the games since it's impossible not to base some of their arguments from game knowledge. What Yamato said here is all we have to work with and frankly his world isn't looking all that pretty. It's all about the talented being put in power. I didn't see anything about the hard working weak people getting the chance to rise up. All you get there is a different tiered system. If you are born with talent, sweet good for you. The rest can be thrown in the trash bin.

What else was needed to be learned about Yamato after the Second Septentrion? For the man who had all the answers and all the plans for the rest of them the big plan here was to just throw bodies at the enemy. Even though he could have just walked out there and taken care of it himself...

Not necessarily Yamato's fault he was born into that kind of family and warped from a young age. His immense ability along with that environment just turned him into a really messed up individual.
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Old 2013-06-28, 22:37   Link #1088
Angelic Cross
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
What Yamato said here is all we have to work with and frankly his world isn't looking all that pretty. It's all about the talented being put in power. I didn't see anything about the hard working weak people getting the chance to rise up. All you get there is a different tiered system. If you are born with talent, sweet good for you. The rest can be thrown in the trash bin.
Well then, if the anime's presentation of Yamato's version is being seen this way (a Saturday morning cartoon villain type of motivation), then I feel further justified in my feelings that the anime is inferior to the game. Frankly, I think a few additional bits of dialogue would have been enough to give Yamato's anime motivation the same amount of depth it had in the game.
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Old 2013-06-28, 23:00   Link #1089
shmaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelic Cross View Post
Eh, I don't know man. Strange Journey pretty much had both the Law and Chaos sides confirm that the Great Will beat the crap out of the Chaos forces and then gave rulership of the earth to humanity while keeping the Chaos dudes off of humanity's back; the relationship only soured because of humanity going "We are totally awesome and don't need you anymore" and the Great Will got pissed of for humans not being bro anymore.
Actually, the other hand around. When YHWH was losing human faith, he actually got weakened like every other gods out there. The Great Mothers even took this opportunity and broke him into pieces.
This why you are trying to free Demiurge in the first place, to piece YHWH back together.
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Old 2013-06-29, 00:36   Link #1090
Angelic Cross
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Actually, the other hand around. When YHWH was losing human faith, he actually got weakened like every other gods out there. The Great Mothers even took this opportunity and broke him into pieces.
This why you are trying to free Demiurge in the first place, to piece YHWH back together.
Er, I don't see how what I said contradicts that. I was being facetious about the "being pissed off" part (it was more like that the Great Will forgot the love for humans).
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Old 2013-06-29, 02:06   Link #1091
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Ah I see, guess I took your words from the wrong direction.

Though, I have to agree with the point that your higher up is clueless about humanity much like every gods out there.
He had humanity bowing before him for centuries, yet he could never utilize them as properly as the Three Wisemen did.
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Old 2013-06-29, 02:45   Link #1092
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
And where exactly did Hibiki say anything like this?

In Yamato's world only the strong survive. In Hibiki's world people are allowed to be weak and rely on each other.
I think I failed to argue properly and that's why my post gets derailed. Let me try once again.

I have no issue with Hibiki's choice (frankly, the idea of whose vision is better has been discussed to death, so let's not go there). I have issue with the logic of his argument. He says that to live is to choose. I will argue that the difference between Hibiki's world, Yamato's world (and Ronaldo's world) is not that Hibiki's world has more choices than Yamato's world (/Ronaldo's) but how these choices are distributed.

- In Hibiki's world, choices belong to the privileges. Say, the people born privileged have 10 choices each, while the underprivileged have one.
- In Yamato's world, the people born privileged will choose some of their choices (say, the choice to mooch of one's parents, the choice to bribe for a position, etc). But on the other hand, the underprivileged will be given more choices (say, the choice to work hard and get rewarded). So, in this world, the talended and hardworking will have 10 choices each, while the lazy and probably the born crippled (unfortunately) will have one
- In Ronaldo's world, everyone will have the same choices regardless of work. The privileged people will lose the choice of not helping others, but at the same time, the underprivileged will have more choices. Say, everyone has 5 choices each.

In short, IMHO, Hibiki's reasoning that the current world have more choices is a fallacy because only the privileged have more choices in Hibiki's world compared to in the other worlds, while in the other worlds, the underprivileged will have more choices. So if you consider all people, not just the privileged, the three worlds probably have the same amount of choices. The only issue is how these choices are distributed.

So, this is why I'm saying that there are better arguments that the writer can choose, but he is not good enough to write properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Well I think it's impossible to have a legitimate debate with those who have played the games since it's impossible not to base some of their arguments from game knowledge. What Yamato said here is all we have to work with and frankly his world isn't looking all that pretty. It's all about the talented being put in power. I didn't see anything about the hard working weak people getting the chance to rise up. All you get there is a different tiered system. If you are born with talent, sweet good for you. The rest can be thrown in the trash bin.
I agree. With the lack of development in the anime, it's hard to argue at all. But the game has pretty good representations of what kind of people chooses Yamato or Ronaldo's world. Makoto represents the not talented but hardworking in Yamato's faction. Keita represents the underprivileged but talented and hardworking. Fumi represents the discriminated but talented and hardworking. Yamato himself represents the privileged and talented. Basically, except for Yamato, everyone in his faction were the underprivileged who worked very hard to achieve what he/she has now.

To give comparison, Airi represents the talented but underprivileged and not hardworking (at least not good enough cuz she gave up without trying) while Joe represents the lazy who likes to mooch off other people (at least before character development) in Ronaldo's faction.

Last edited by p-kun; 2013-06-29 at 02:58.
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Old 2013-06-29, 04:09   Link #1093
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Seiji Kishi really dropped the ball on this one, assuming it's not the original material that was weak. I'm worried about Danganronpa now.
You’re worried about Danganronpa, but I’m more worried about the upcoming Arpeggio of Blue Steel that will be helmed by Kishi. The manga is too exceptional to be ruined by this man & co and the ridiculous “12-13 episodes only” rules of anime. I’m afraid it will end up just like this P2 anime: bland and mediocre from beginning to end .

And the "rewrite" ending of this anime is very much a dime-a-dozen that I don't even want to comment further.
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Old 2013-06-29, 04:18   Link #1094
Angelic Cross
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Ah I see, guess I took your words from the wrong direction.

Though, I have to agree with the point that your higher up is clueless about humanity much like every gods out there.
He had humanity bowing before him for centuries, yet he could never utilize them as properly as the Three Wisemen did.
Actually I disagree with that. It looks more like humanity got arrogant and pretty much forgot why they became the top dog on Earth. Humanity screwing itself up is pretty much a running theme in the franchise

Spoiler for A lot of games in the franchise:


I'd add some more (I was all set with the Devil Summoner stuff), but it's already getting pretty long. In short, humans in the MegaTen universe tend to be the main cause of the problems and suffering of the setting, especially when they start messing with the supernatural.
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Old 2013-06-29, 05:20   Link #1095
shmaster
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Well, I do agree that human in the SMT franchise are problematic.

But what I am agreeing with is that your higher up were never that good in dealing with humanity in various cases when he governs them.
He is as much as a one dimensional tool can be. Responding to humanity in a binary fashion... really isn't the way to do it. And we know it can lead to disastrous results to himself, especially in SMT2 when even you know who turned against him. It is also quite shameful that his grandest victory, aka SJ Law End was made possible thanks to Three Wisemen, who are earthly spirits.

This is a scenario of incompetent ruler meeting corrupted subjects, and both sides end up screwed up.
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Old 2013-06-29, 05:36   Link #1096
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Err... that aside, guys how about we move this to the game thread? It's getting kinda dangerous over here.
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Old 2013-06-29, 15:01   Link #1097
Dengar
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Are we SERIOUSLY doing this AGAIN? Oh no, not I. I will retire. *flies off to Timor* I don't care who else bothers.
You know, if you don't want to answer you could just, you know, not answer? There's no need to be insulting.
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Old 2013-06-29, 15:24   Link #1098
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You know, if you don't want to answer you could just, you know, not answer? There's no need to be insulting.
Now, now. Where was I ever insulting or personally addressing you for that matter. Technically I didn't even agree or disagree with your statement. Just retreated from the topic. Unless you have a certain kind of self awareness pertaining something contrary with your own opinion, reason for which I cannot at all fathom as it stands now.
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Old 2013-06-29, 15:44   Link #1099
Dengar
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Perhaps "insulting" was the wrong choice of words. I seem to have misinterpreted you. The way you quoted me and reacted to it made it seem like you had some kind of problem with what I said.
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Old 2013-06-29, 18:17   Link #1100
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Perhaps "insulting" was the wrong choice of words. I seem to have misinterpreted you. The way you quoted me and reacted to it made it seem like you had some kind of problem with what I said.
I'll answer in the game thread geeesh I did it again sorry;;;;;

Last edited by Blizzard; 2013-06-29 at 18:27.
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