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Old 2013-04-12, 09:43   Link #501
mikeomni
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Restraint? He used a lot when Ledo and Chamber took the time to identify friend from foe. That's what Positive-ID is about. Only kill the the opfor and let the people you are protecting live. At the same time you have to be thorough to prevent followup attacks on either yourself or the natives.

If you think in realistic terms, which is part of the setup, he is alone and has limited resources. The action he took was to open negotiations. Before that he was stuck at the edge of the ship with guys ready to shoot him if he did anything hostile while he is reluctant to force himself into a deeper hole. It's better to negotiate from a position of strength is it not? And shooting the guys you want friendly relations with is not a good long term strategy. What would be a stronger demonstration than "cleanly" offing just the opposing force? Shock and awe.

Last edited by mikeomni; 2013-04-12 at 09:57.
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Old 2013-04-12, 09:56   Link #502
sikvod00
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So do you believe Red intentionally vaporized the pirates to get an edge in negotiations? I assumed he killed them out of habit. After all, he is so accustomed to dealing with threats that require the use of deadly force. My heart certainly doesn't go out for the pirates, but they are insignificant compared to Hidiaazu. If he could have stopped them with the same level of precision but without killing anyone, that would have been preferable. I'm sure that's what people mean by restraint.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:10   Link #503
mikeomni
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So do you believe Red intentionally vaporized the pirates to get an edge in negotiations? I assumed he killed them out of habit. After all, he is so accustomed to dealing with threats that require the use of deadly force. My heart certainly doesn't go out for the pirates, but they are insignificant compared to Hidiaazu. If he could have stopped them with the same level of precision but without killing anyone, that would have been preferable. I'm sure that's what people mean by restraint.
Absolutely! Red/Ledo had some time to think while standing out there. Numerous times he was overriding Chamber's suggestions to use deadly force. If he thought it would work to be fancy shooting weapons out of native/pirate's hands he might have considered it. But the threat here wasn't the weapons but the people/pirates. And he needed a way to demonstrate the disparity in strength. If the animation was intentional, you can see that both pirates and weapons were vaporized together with limited collateral damage. I think the message here was "I could have done the same to you but I didn't. Now talk nice to me!"
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:11   Link #504
Renegade334
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^-- Well, the mothership he was on was the only place he could

1) land on and stay for an extended period of time while awaiting rescue
2) get food and resources for physical/medical sustenance
3) have someone keep him company (I doubt Ledo is as bad as Rei Fukai from Sentou Yousei Yukikaze - that guy was practically obsessed with his aircraft's AI)
4) gather information to get a better bearing on the completely unknown world he got stranded on

So...if that place's safety were to be jeopardized by a party (visibly willing to use deadly force to get what it wanted), so was his own...and as a good soldier taught to survive in order to fight another day, taking chances was a big no-no. So it's not impossible for him to have reacted this way.

The "I-saved-your-buddies-now-you-owe-me" politicking bit was a potentially big bonus, a golden opportunity to not only wrest favors from the reluctant bigwigs, but also impress the whole lot on his technological -and thus military- superiority.

P.S. I'm obviously late to the discussion and didn't sift through the 25 previous pages for spoilers, but is this series confirmed to include a harem in the future or is this mere wild-guessing? *glances at thread tags*
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:17   Link #505
garbage
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I don't think that sort of "restraint" ever entered his thoughts.
this guy was trained (created even, as it was implied they were cloned) from the onset to battle deadly alien life forms, not other humans. "Deadly force" as we know it, is the norm. Never was he ever in a normal daily life situation. To the point in fact that even their sleeping was dictated by command. Having that kind of "restraint" requires recognition of regular societal norms that he clearly doesn't have at this moment, and having values like regular humans.

Which is all great story-wise as it highlights their difference more, and allows a possible growth vector for the MC, and interesting story conflicts. Moreover the Shock the Gargantians exhibited in EP2 i would say is more in line with this difference in outlook along with the massive firepower exhibited,
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:22   Link #506
sikvod00
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^Your reasoning for why he eleminated them is similar to mine. Although the negotiation perspective is equally valid now that I think more about it. But really, neither view contradicts the other; Red was raised in a military enviornment, so that influences not only how he fights but how he thinks.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:34   Link #507
mikeomni
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Which is all great story-wise as it highlights their difference more, and allows a possible growth vector for the MC, and interesting story conflicts. Moreover the Shock the Gargantians exhibited in EP2 i would say is more in line with this difference in outlook along with the massive firepower exhibited,
Yes, this is part of what makes the story interesting. I can't wait for EP3, too bad that's not until another week. The Gargantian's reaction afterwards would be a good hint toward the direction of this story. Yukikaze was personal drama. FMP was action/comedy. Will this be like "To" which is more reality bound? In which case, what's the result of this collision between the peaceful natives and warlike invader? Will it be Disney's Pocahantas or the one your read from the history books.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:48   Link #508
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P.S. I'm obviously late to the discussion and didn't sift through the 25 previous pages for spoilers, but is this series confirmed to include a harem in the future or is this mere wild-guessing? *glances at thread tags*
I posted a query about it being tagged here as a harem series a while ago, but got no response. I don't know who or why it was tagged as a harem here on animesuki. I did a very limited Internet search and couldn't find it labeled as a harem anywhere else.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:57   Link #509
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he is a soldier and he did what soldier do. annihilate the hostile forces and save the allies. soldiers don't usually show sempathy to enemy
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Old 2013-04-12, 12:11   Link #510
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Amy certainly is easily impressed.
Well, at least from Red's point of view.
Nice episode. Kinda slow, but progressing nicely.
At least the pirates brought some action.
Red shows some potential, hope he uses it wisely.
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Old 2013-04-12, 12:22   Link #511
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This really shows the cultural and technological different between Ledo and the world he's been raised ... [ shows pin point accuracy and deadliness of the lasers , well the pirates never felt a thing ]

@ Erdii there a clear difference between neutralization and annihilation , i think most professional soldiers aren't machines bent on annihilating every one
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Old 2013-04-12, 12:40   Link #512
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I don't think that sort of "restraint" ever entered his thoughts.
this guy was trained (created even, as it was implied they were cloned) from the onset to battle deadly alien life forms, not other humans. "Deadly force" as we know it, is the norm. Never was he ever in a normal daily life situation. To the point in fact that even their sleeping was dictated by command. Having that kind of "restraint" requires recognition of regular societal norms that he clearly doesn't have at this moment, and having values like regular humans.

Which is all great story-wise as it highlights their difference more, and allows a possible growth vector for the MC, and interesting story conflicts. Moreover the Shock the Gargantians exhibited in EP2 i would say is more in line with this difference in outlook along with the massive firepower exhibited,
I agree that for the story, it was a good way to show Chamber's power to the Gargantians. However, Ledo made a rather poor choice by engaging and destroying the entire pirate force. The better choice would have been a display of force getting the pirates to back down without causing unnecessary damage/casualties (i.e., the way he acted with the Gargantians - the smart solution but perhaps boring to watch the same thing play out again).

Why is that the better choice? Because he has no idea about the existing situation between the pirates and the Gargantians. Perhaps they are engaged in a low-level conflict (the pirates looked to kill only a few Gargantians, and Bellows seemed to think the pirates would take their "booty" and leave without harming the others). Now however, Ledo has escalated the conflict and basically declared war on the pirates on Gargantia's behalf and without their permission. Will be interesting to see if the pirates demand the Gargantians turn Ledo over to them for his "unauthorized" actions, which leads to the inevitable debate where the cute little girl defends Ledo against the "evil" adults.


BTW, with Chamber being such an advanced AI, it raises the question of why it even needs a human pilot at all. But this series seems relatively shallow in its world-building, so best not to go down that rabbit hole . . .
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Old 2013-04-12, 13:14   Link #513
mikeomni
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Why is that the better choice? Because he has no idea about the existing situation between the pirates and the Gargantians. Perhaps they are engaged in a low-level conflict (the pirates looked to kill only a few Gargantians, and Bellows seemed to think the pirates would take their "booty" and leave without harming the others). Now however, Ledo has escalated the conflict and basically declared war on the pirates on Gargantia's behalf and without their permission. Will be interesting to see if the pirates demand the Gargantians turn Ledo over to them for his "unauthorized" actions, which leads to the inevitable debate where the cute little girl defends Ledo against the "evil" adults.

BTW, with Chamber being such an advanced AI, it raises the question of why it even needs a human pilot at all. But this series seems relatively shallow in its world-building, so best not to go down that rabbit hole . . .
Those consequences as you say move the plot. That's an even more compelling reason for the Gargantians to ally with Ledo. They're in it now, they might need him for protection! I don't know if the authors really intended Ledo's character to be calculating as I suggest but with Gen in the background, it can't be ruled out. I'm looking at Fate Zero's Kiritsugu and Maiya as an indicator.

As for AI and Pilot, yeah they didn't establish the reason why they are needed together. If we borrow from similar sci-fi like the Bolo novels, the human is there to provide creative input and basically balance the machine's ruthlessness against the human's common sense. Someone has to tell the machine when to stop killing.
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Old 2013-04-12, 14:10   Link #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeomni View Post
Absolutely! Red/Ledo had some time to think while standing out there. Numerous times he was overriding Chamber's suggestions to use deadly force. If he thought it would work to be fancy shooting weapons out of native/pirate's hands he might have considered it. But the threat here wasn't the weapons but the people/pirates. And he needed a way to demonstrate the disparity in strength. If the animation was intentional, you can see that both pirates and weapons were vaporized together with limited collateral damage. I think the message here was "I could have done the same to you but I didn't. Now talk nice to me!"
+1 million. Yeah, i don't think "restraint" was even a real issue. It's clear all he was doing was trying to reason with people and do whatever he had to to protect himself, including kidnap that girl for a hot second.

My thing is this: does his mech need to be "charged?" Or is it a self-sustaining power source?
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Old 2013-04-12, 14:20   Link #515
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Late to the discussion here, haven't been watching anime lately so I'm trying to catch up to the newest offering this season.

I think Ledo is pretty similar to FMP's Sousuke in his thought process. Logical, professional on the front but still humane deep inside. To him, the world is probably pretty black and white, allies or enemies without much gray area in between and enemies are to be eliminated.

I'm hoping this series to be a bit light hearted so my wager is on none of the main character dying or traumatized at the end of the series
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Old 2013-04-12, 14:24   Link #516
garbage
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I agree that for the story, it was a good way to show Chamber's power to the Gargantians. However, Ledo made a rather poor choice by engaging and destroying the entire pirate force. The better choice would have been a display of force getting the pirates to back down without causing unnecessary damage/casualties (i.e., the way he acted with the Gargantians - the smart solution but perhaps boring to watch the same thing play out again).

Why is that the better choice? Because he has no idea about the existing situation between the pirates and the Gargantians. Perhaps they are engaged in a low-level conflict (the pirates looked to kill only a few Gargantians, and Bellows seemed to think the pirates would take their "booty" and leave without harming the others). Now however, Ledo has escalated the conflict and basically declared war on the pirates on Gargantia's behalf and without their permission. Will be interesting to see if the pirates demand the Gargantians turn Ledo over to them for his "unauthorized" actions, which leads to the inevitable debate where the cute little girl defends Ledo against the "evil" adults.

But that's exactly my point! Ledo never had the chance to observe and be part of regular human society including conflicts between humans and optimum actions in resolving conflicts between them. he was trained and controlled from the very beginning to fight Hiddeuz and nothing more. Why then would one expect him to understand the societal implications of his actions? He was never trained as a police officer with a Maximum Tolerance mindset( not even regular police officers would have that in mind in a deadly hostage taking scenario, more so swat snipers), in fact i think that would be detrimental in his duties against the alien menace. That type of "resraint" is just not in his mind, at this point.

All he sees is :
Gargantian=Humans living on earth, the legendary home of humans, needs as a base until possible rescue.
Amy=possible first "ally" in a sense ,only one who "talked" to him, member of Gargantia, likes chamber
Pirates = ENEMY, ( he even asked Amy about that), neutralization of which would further his goal with the gargantians. AND Amy asked him personally.

So how was he trained to deal with enemies?
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Old 2013-04-12, 14:34   Link #517
Cirno
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I hope the girl slaps Ledo's butts as if she were one of the guys on a team, just like starship troopers.
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:30   Link #518
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Just saw the first episode, seems better than what Majestic Prince and Valvrave had. I also enjoyed the machine calibers and alien snails a lot.
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:30   Link #519
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I think one thing that people going UROBUCHI UROBUCHI should probably note is that unlike Madoka and Psycho-pass where Urobuchi was involved in writing just about every episode, Gargantia is a show where he was involved in the concept work with the director and he's supervising the series, but he's not writing every episode. In fact, aside from writing the first episode, it doesn't look like there'll be another Urobuchi episode anytime soon. Episode 2-5 are all written by other people.

Murata is the director, and considering how similar Gargantia and FMA Milos feel, I'll say he's a director with a very clear vision of the sort of tone and visuals he wants from his show.
I have a hunch this will become an important post down the line.
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:51   Link #520
Dawnstorm
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Heh, from the perspective of the Gargantians this is interesting:

Wtf was that? (We might have attacked that? Good god...)

What you mean, only one in a flotilla? There's more up there like that? Like... lots of those things? What?

What you mean, enemy? Trouble to defeat? With.. with a flotilla of... of... those things?

What you mean, no mercy, no surrender? Annihilation is normal?

The universe is a much more scary thing than we thought...

***

To me, though, the more interesting thing about this episode was those micro creatures that generate enough energy to send lightning up towards the skies. They seem to be important to keep the sea ice free and full of food.

Theory: Ledo's been thrown back in time, and he witnesses the ur-form of the Hideauze ("Hideous"). Dilemma: eliminate the life form before it can evolve and probably cause extinction of humans on Earth, or leave them be and know that this will a galaxy-wide terrible enemy of humanity. You're a soldier who used to follow orders, and suddenly you're the only one who has to face a decision like this. Sure helps you grow as a human, doesn't it. [Note that for this to work, he'd have to be thrown back into a time after most of humanity left earth, but before the enemy appeared. Not sure if this is possible. Not sure being thrown back in time is possible at all.]

I do wonder what those creatures are. Maybe they're just biologically similar and provide a clue as to what makes them tick?
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