AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Suisei no Gargantia

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-04-21, 18:14   Link #961
CJ_Walker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles, California
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
Guess Gargantia tries to avoid excessive losses on the pirate's side, but telling Ledo to avoid kill the pirates when they attack? Too bad the pirates want to kill, if they don't suffer any losses they will keep coming back.

I understand why they don't want Ledo to keep annihilating those pirates whenever they attack, since he's just a guest on Gargantia so far. Pirates may stop attacking while he's on Gargantia because they suffer too many losses, but when he leaves, pirates are going to swarm Gargantia.

Lobster mecha on hover board? Never thought I would see something like that in Gargantia.
That makes some sense. . .but its a bit too late for that now(since that will probably happen at this point anyway). Might as well just have him destroy all the pirates.
CJ_Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:17   Link #962
Enjou
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Renegade's explanation makes sense as to why killing is taboo - escalation is bad for both sides. The pirates themselves don't seem to kill much either if you think about it. Remember that nobody on the ship Bellows was running was killed when the pirates seized it. It should also be noted that Lukkage's response to Ledo's massacre of her men wasn't aimed at destroying the Gargantia fleet, rather it was aimed at killing Gargantia's commanding officer. She needed blood equivalent to the blood of her men that were killed.

Given the scarcity of both manpower and resources, any group going into any kind of protracted full scale war would crap out quite quickly.
Enjou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:19   Link #963
shmaster
関係断続
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
...Am I the only who think they tell Ledo not to kill is an extremely smart move?

When you have an alien with super tech that is capable of annihilating everything on this planet.
Are you sure "okay to kill" is the impression you want the said alien to have?

Even the said alien means no harm to you, allowing an alien just go out there and busting people with super tech will end up attracting attention all over the world and chaos is guaranteed to follow. Especially you are not sure how the said alien is going to react if he becomes the attention of the whole wrold.

Think about the long term consequences if they just let Ledo go out and kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I guess my issue with this episode is not so much that the Gargantians don't want to take human life if unnecessary, okay I can accept that, but they talked about taking Ledo's life as an option when they were unsure what to do with him.

Obviously that is not the option they ultimately chose but I am not even sure how they can even think of that as an option if they value human life so much.
Just want to say, even that fleet has a general philosophy, not everyone will follow it to the same degree or the exact same interpretation. We don't see people following a philosophy in a 100% identical way IRL either.

And it is easy to tell the person who told Ledo not to tell and the one suggest killing him are of different status and social position. You can't expect them to have the same take on a same philosophy.
shmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:19   Link #964
Kiavik
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Great episode. I loved the little reference to Yatterman too:




are just alternate versions of



The green guy is even named Marokky (the original was Boyakky)
The way they have an animal shaped mecha (lobster) and how they literally get tossed away at the end are references to Yatterman too (Team Rocket also referenced Yatterman)
Kiavik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:20   Link #965
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post
Where, pray tell, did I say that?
When you said pirates would be willing to die in large numbers to prove a point.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that there is an uneasy balance at play in the Galgantia world and it was spectacularly broken.
My point was, it was a stupid, unrealistic balance to start with.

Quote:
The bottom is line is: pirates steal because they want to steal and fleets defend themselves without giving the pirates a reason to mount a vendetta that'll only end when one side is eradicated.

- I very much doubt, however, that pirates can survive eternally if they do not allow their victims to sail away relatively unscathed - someone has, after all, to manufacture, mine and transform all these riches they militarily appropriate on a regular basis. So, if you need this "regular source of income" to stick around some more, you don't go on a killing spree as you sail the seven seas. You only kill a few to remind the world that you're the boss of the seas and that messing with the boss will only invite greater bloodshed...and, oh, if they want something, they'll take it by force. In ep.02 Bellows was even exhorting the pirates to get the hell away now that they had what they wanted; I don't think she'd be saying that, unless she knew that pirates were willing to let their prey walk away - until the day they'd rob them again.
After taking the loot and maybe a few slaves. Yay.

But my point is, if you know you can't resists and don't plan to, you pay a tribute. Weapons don't enter into it. You certainly don't pretend to resist. That only makes things worse.

If you're going to resist at all, then you don't hold back. Certainly not out of concern for the sanctity of you enemy's life. Or out of fear of pissing him off - if that's your concern, again, just surrender without a fight.

Quote:
- The civilian fleets do not have extensive armament, so they can't very well answer a pirate onslaught, much less bear the full brunt of a pirate retaliation as was depicted in ep.03. So how do they avoid a situation wherein pirates do not cause too much damage and are not handed a reason to come back in full force? Deterrence, a "formal" retaliation (sending escort ships to scare the pirates away - even if you are not shooting at them with the intention to kill, you can never truly tell whether your shells will harmlessly splash in the water; this uncertainty is additional incentive for the pirates to steer away and leave the fleets alone) and restraint. Obviously there is no such thing as the UN Security Council or vigilante groups, so I doubt they have much resources to spare on pirate hunting; they probably are using it all just to survive in an endless ocean where even energy is a resource hard to come by.
Pirates who, according to you and Bellows, won't be afraid to fight you when you go all out won't be afraid to fight you when you fire for show.

Quote:
Things, however, can become MUCH dicier if someone breaks the equation (a near symbiotic relationship if my assumption does hold some water), this status quo, wherein
- one party tries to rob the other
- the latter endeavors to fend off the former
...but in the end nobody gets hurt more than they should (yes, the victims lose a lot, but they mostly live to see another day).


And, oh snap, Ledo completely mauled the status quo by going on a killing spree.


In all of the above, I did not talk once about how wrong it is to kill or any other ideal or some greater moral purpose. It's about a form of balance that should never be broken unless you wish for events to snowball.


And, in this case, the cycle was broken by someone who did not know about the balance. Someone who was NOT an ally of Galgantia. Someone who, I repeat again, offered no tangible reason to be trusted. Someone who might not be controllable in the long term.

A stranger. Do you people entrust your safety to complete strangers? Strangers who incidentally caused damage to your home and once took one of your acquaintances hostage? In a perfect world, with roses and perfume and the surefire guarantee of a happy ending...maybe.

Asking Ledo to take care of ALL the pirates seems like the logical thing to do, but probably goes against their principles of "life first" (I presume this is their equivalent of the ten commandments, the tenets thats allowed them to survive the oceanic adjustment and complete disappearance of landmass). Furthermore, they're probably highly reluctant to give the trigger happy loose cannon a reason to run amok again. They don't trust him and have no reason to believe he's a perfectly composed, rational person.
As I said, I don't even care what Ledo did. It's about Bellows' "logic". Instead of that bullshit, they should decide, before the first shot's fired, maybe even before they even procure weapons, whether they're too scared to fight pirates or not. If so, they should negotiate terms. If not, they should fight like they mean it.

Quote:
Oh, I doubt they sent the small cruisers in ep.02 to play UN Peaceeking Corps - I mean, show up, look important and shoo the enemy away. Clearly they can retaliate, but they can't engineer an even worse scenario wherein the pirates no longer care about their victims (who produce the wealth pirates routinely steal) and will only be satisfied by complete domination and bloodshed.
What you mean is, they can't retaliate.

Quote:
If they truly wanted to go against the pirate community they'd have transformed Galgantia into a seafaring fortress crowned with 406mm cannons, a hundred torpedo launchers, hull armor so thick and heavy the damn thing is almost threatening to sink at the bottom of the ocean. But can they afford it, when mere survival is paramount? Not necessarily.
If the pirates are that big a problem, can they afford not to?

Quote:
Fact: Galgantia's defense fleet was completely outclassed by the pirate fleet.
Conclusion: don't give the pirates an excuse to demonstrate the above fact.
The point, if we're going to be logical, isn't to actually be stronger than the pirate fleet. It's to make an attack on them costly enough the pirates would rather hunt elsewhere.

Quote:
Deterrence does work if it's properly executed. In ep.02, Bellows ventured too far outside of Galgantia's protective fulcrum, so obviously the meager defense mechanism they've devised is not flawless. They were obviously willing to engage the pirates in ep.02, but never had the chance to, since Bellows' ship was too far away and Ledo beat them to the punch.
Except Bellows doesn't want deterrence. She's afraid it would piss off the pirates.

Quote:
Obviously they lack an Internet subscription and desktop experts to point that out and inform them that ET has finally come home with death rays. The episode clearly showed that pirates easily outclassed the Galgantia forces and have gotten extremely confident after decades, if not centuries, of having the upper seat in a relationship of power that has never been shaken...until now. You'll probably need more than a few sunk ships to make them think again and inform them that they are dealing with a technologically superior entity that has descended from outer space. Heck, even Lukkage herself didn't put much stock into the "flying Jumboro" report until it used her for Ledo's version of the hammer throw.

So don't expect much cunning or wisdom from hordes of scumbags captained by people whose egos are so large they probably require their own zip code.
Doesn't matter how well they communicate. Simple arithmetic would make the pirates stop attacking. It was almost all the pirates they were facing, and thus an opportunity for Ledo to eliminate almost all the pirates. 30 ships is an overwhelming power. 2 ships isn't.

Quote:
You're talking about people armed with AK47s and RPG7s squatting in dhows and other skinny-hulled boats...going after destroyers and frigates? Galgantia, on the other hand, would involve small destroyers and frigates going after heavily-armored and heavily-armed cruisers. The relationship of power is dramatically reversed.

RL pirates also go after yachts and cargos because the owners and relatives of the owners are willing to pay. Governments are more prone to send more warships to clean up the mess and set things straight. OTOH, in Galgantia, it has yet to be shown that there is some sort of black market where stolen goods are traded. Pirates are probably also stealing stuff for their own use, their own sustenance.
Those details don't matter. My point is this: pirates don't fight for an ideology, or for image. They fight for money, guided by risk and reward. Therefore, half-assing your attacks against them is never going to work better than going full out, and if you do win, they won't come back at you with the readiness to sacrifice half their forces to achieve victory: they'll look for easier targets.

Oh, and think about your "balance". The Gargantians are afraid of an all-out fight. The pirates aren't. The Gargantians have weapons to mitigate the pirates' damage. The logical move for the pirates is thus to confiscate all the weapons, either under threat of an all out war and after winning said war.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:28   Link #966
CJ_Walker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles, California
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enjou View Post
Renegade's explanation makes sense as to why killing is taboo - escalation is bad for both sides. The pirates themselves don't seem to kill much either if you think about it. Remember that nobody on the ship Bellows was running was killed when the pirates seized it. It should also be noted that Lukkage's response to Ledo's massacre of her men wasn't aimed at destroying the Gargantia fleet, rather it was aimed at killing Gargantia's commanding officer. She needed blood equivalent to the blood of her men that were killed.

Given the scarcity of both manpower and resources, any group going into any kind of protracted full scale war would crap out quite quickly.
Except that Renegade is wrong. If ledo just wipes out the pirates. He has more than enough firepower for that.

You really can't have a "symbiotic relation ship with criminals, at least not for long. SOMEBODY is just going to say "enough" and eventually wipe them out. "Deterrents" or not.

and really? wanting equal blood for the men she lost? They ATTACKED another ship, held them hostage and tried to steal from them! What the hell is there to equalize? "Oh no these people who tried stealing from us, and held us at gunpoint were killed! Now it is their "Right" to attack us and kill some of our members in exchange for not letting them take our shit, hold our women hostage (with the intention of kidnapping and possibly raping them) and killing them in self defense.

I'm sorry but that's just plain out stupidity. I think that you guys just watch too much anime, and go back to using anime logic when discussing stuff. It's flabbergasting to be honest.

If I were ledo and got shit for helping them, I would just straight up leave, after destroying all of the pirates. . .since they are CRIMINALS.

But I'm pretty sure this is just GEN poking at/deconstructing this "no killing" trope, since it's completely ridiculous, as I'm sure if you guys were in the same boat (*wink*) you would be jumping up for Joy if the Pirates got completely wiped out.

You know, now having to fight, get wounded, die etc. . .

but well. . .this is anime logic so yeah real logic goes out the window. I actually hope Gen addresses this (and given his track record, madoka, psycho pass) he probably will.
CJ_Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:29   Link #967
ChronoReverse
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Good grief, maybe the Gargantian leaders don't want to have the moral responsibility of pushing the button to unilaterally slaughter every single one of the pirates? Seriously, the States back in the day dealt extremely severely with pirates but even they didn't go the point of massacre down to the man.

There's plenty of other pragmatic reasons too like how the pirates can sneak aboard the ship pretty easily. They go right up to the hull before being noticed even though it was full alert. It would be incredibly easy to sneak and kidnap leaders if they wanted to. What's Gargantia going to do? Be on full alert permanently?


Not killing them is obviously going to bite them in the ass in the end but it's not just "anime pacifist" to not just want to kill them all.
ChronoReverse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:38   Link #968
Dop
Mmmm....
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Basically yes, Ledo could have wiped out all the pirates. But then he and the Gargantia would have been like the scum of the earth, and other people would have come after them, and they'd face total war until they or everyone else were dead.

If you do "an eye for an aye and a tooth for a tooth" then everyone winds up blind and toothless.

What they showed in this episode is that they could defeat the pirates, but they did that with minimum loss of life. The pirates will think twice about attacking Gargantia again, but there was no mass murder.
Dop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:43   Link #969
ChronoReverse
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Or now they'll be forever hounded by the pirates. It can work either way.

However, the Gargantians are uncomfortable about slaughter in the first place so it's kinda obvious why they preferred this option.
ChronoReverse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:45   Link #970
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dop View Post
Basically yes, Ledo could have wiped out all the pirates. But then he and the Gargantia would have been like the scum of the earth,
For killing pirates?

Quote:
and other people would have come after them, and they'd face total war until they or everyone else were dead.

If you do "an eye for an aye and a tooth for a tooth" then everyone winds up blind and toothless.
Yeah, and if the "other people" believe that, there's nothing to fear, is there?

Quote:
What they showed in this episode is that they could defeat the pirates, but they did that with minimum loss of life. The pirates will think twice about attacking Gargantia again, but there was no mass murder.
If you kill someone who's in the process of shooting at you in an unprovoked attack, it's not murder.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:46   Link #971
Mangaka-chan
Lab Monkey
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: not home
After reading the arguments people have supporting Gargantia killing the pirates rather than warning them off, I thought about this: why don't countries in the Western world kill off all criminals convicted of armed robbery and aggravated assault? Pirates and robbers are arrested, incarcerated for a time, but rarely killed, either by lethal injection or other means.

If one suggests killing those that threaten a fictional society is the most "best" way then why don't we do that to the criminals in our own reality? Why is that? Is it because we in the real world have the space (and land/resources) to incarcerate people? Because we want to give these criminals a second chance? Or is it because we consider the severity of their crime undeserving of the ultimate punishment: death? If so why should we not apply these same standards in fiction? Or does fiction grant us the right to use Occam's Razor to deal with destabilizing elements in society?
Mangaka-chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:46   Link #972
Helius
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: stuck between galaxies
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiavik View Post
Great episode. I loved the little reference to Yatterman too:

...

The green guy is even named Marokky (the original was Boyakky)
The way they have an animal shaped mecha (lobster) and how they literally get tossed away at the end are references to Yatterman too (Team Rocket also referenced Yatterman)
Didn't know about that. Cool stuff.
Helius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:47   Link #973
Enjou
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
Except that Renegade is wrong. If ledo just wipes out the pirates. He has more than enough firepower for that.
Ledo may well be practically invincible, but Gargantia is not. Other pirate groups aren't just going to let a fleet continue existing if it poses that much of a threat to their own continued existence. That sub the used to transport their mecha went completely undetected by Chamber until they launched them. All the pirates would have to do is get Ledo away from Gargantia for a while (or just attack at night while he's sleeping) and use their subs to launch torpedoes to fill Gargantia full of holes and sink the entire thing. This means that most of the civilians aboard the ship will die, because there won't be enough infrastructure to support their continued existence. Ledo and Chamber change the power balance, but not to the point where the leaders of Gargantia can just forget about the potential consequences.

Quote:
You really can't have a "symbiotic relation ship with criminals, at least not for long. SOMEBODY is just going to say "enough" and eventually wipe them out. "Deterrents" or not.
It's more of a parasite/host relationship, but regardless of that in most cases in this particular world setting going too far against the pirates is going to make you a target and get your fleet sunk. It's one thing to stand on a soap box and talk about justice when you don't have to deal with the consequences of that justice, it's an entirely different thing when you do.

Quote:
and really? wanting equal blood for the men she lost? They ATTACKED another ship, held them hostage and tried to steal from them! What the hell is there to equalize? "Oh no these people who tried stealing from us, and held us at gunpoint were killed! Now it is their "Right" to attack us and kill some of our members in exchange for not letting them take our shit, hold our women hostage (with the intention of kidnapping and possibly raping them) and killing them in self defense.
Your moral outrage against the pirates is irrelevant to the pirates themselves. They will want revenge, even were in the wrong in the first place.
Enjou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:48   Link #974
frubam
singing heartbreak
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: /人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to frubam
Really impressed with this episode, much like the previous ones. The interaction between Ledo and Amy(as well as Bellows for this ep) continues to be entertaining. The battle was certainly exhilarating, and the tension had my heart beating fast throughout the episode =03. At the very least, surprisingly, Rackage gave the impression that she couldn't be taken out with a mere single blow, despite knowing Ledo had the far superior tech, even though he was holding back.

In the end, it looks like Ledo is finally starting to understand the language a bit. Even if in the next ep he starts primarily speaking it, I think that the distinction in languages shown thus far is an excellent idea to implement in a show(Hataraku Maou is another great example).
__________________
Even young love hurts MAL account

frubam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:48   Link #975
andyjay729
YOU EEDIOT!!!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I'm right behind you
Age: 32
I like the debates this episode is generating. Already the prior relationship with these pirates reminds me somewhat of the real-life situation with the Barbary Pirates and how they terrorized world shipping and forced several nations into tribute arrangements.

Some years after that, defenders of President Bush's foreign policy compared his actions against "the axis of evil" to Thomas Jefferson's wars against the Barbary Pirates. Sounds sort of familiar reading some of the comments here, heh. (I am not using this to defend Bush's actions, BTW. But I am pointing out the similarity between the debates over both situations. This anime is already going sort of meta, heh.)

That said, one other thing that kinda bothered me about this was how quickly their attitudes toward Ledo changed, especially Amy. Okay, I can understand them being grateful, but...to me anyway it just seems a bit strange how a guy can go from suspicious/potentially devastating outsider to feted hero with a girl offering to cook him dinner in just one day, especially in Urobuchi's morally ambiguous universe.

I don't think things will stay so straightforward and Ledo will become some kind of invincible Gary Stu since it is just the 3rd episode. At least, I hope it won't stay that way.
andyjay729 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:49   Link #976
creb
Hiding Under Your Bed
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Going into why individual laws exist (some exist solely for revenue reasons, others exist for public safety, etc), is really beyond the scope of a thread for Suisei no Gargantia.

Suffice to say, it's a work of fiction, and arguing over plot points that aren't going to magically change because we disagree with them is a mainstay of a discussion thread. ;p
creb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:49   Link #977
Darthtabby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
I've got rather mixed feelings on this show. On one hand, I kind of want to see it step outside of familiar territory and push things a bit more. Right now a lot of the elements that make up the show (including the story, setting, and characters) seem quite familiar, and the show seems to be following/indulging anime conventions quite a bit.

Problem is, the main hope for the series breaking out in some way is the fact that Gen Urobuchi is involved, and while I know many people here love his stuff, it has a tendency not to work so well for me. I find his works tend to be dark in a way that seems very forced to me.
Darthtabby is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:51   Link #978
Iron Maw
Eating. Serious Business.
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Ep 3

Good episode for the most part, but there are a few things that bother me too, but everyone has already addressed that though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangaka-chan View Post
When Chamber explained to Ledo that "thank you" is a phrase to express your gratitude to someone, it made me wonder if Ledo's civilization no longer has a word that's equivalent to "thanks" and so Chamber couldn't give a direct translation. I feel like ways of saying "hello" and "thank you" are two of the most universal words we have in all languages, so it amazes me that they've lost that expression in space.
I noticed that too which makes me even more worried about what the Alliance will do if they discover earth again. If Ledo's lack of empathy and extreme pragmatism is the standard among everyone there... well let's just say there is very chance things won't be pretty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Not killing them is obviously going to bite them in the ass in the end but it's not just "anime pacifist" to not just want to kill them all.
Which is why Ledo should have taken Luukage prisoner rather then tossing her out into the sea (as funny as that was lol). Let Gargantians deal with her instead of giving her the possibility of coming back.
Iron Maw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:51   Link #979
kimpleng
Lurker
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
I'm wondering how much energy that Chamber has.
Probably later they will recharge using that "sea thunder".
kimpleng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-21, 18:53   Link #980
creb
Hiding Under Your Bed
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimpleng View Post
I'm wondering how much energy that Chamber has.
Probably later they will recharge using that "sea thunder".
For character growth, and the presumed plot progression, I almost feel like it's a given that Chamber is going to run out of energy at some point. It's possible they manage to re-energize him for the finale, but I think the safe money is for a number of episodes where Ledo won't be able to rely on the "godlike" powers of Chamber.
creb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, harem, mecha, military, post-apocalyptic, sci-fi, urobuchi

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.