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Old 2013-04-21, 21:58   Link #1001
s2012k1993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh Minh
Oh, and think about your "balance". The Gargantians are afraid of an all-out fight. The pirates aren't. The Gargantians have weapons to mitigate the pirates' damage. The logical move for the pirates is thus to confiscate all the weapons, either under threat of an all out war and after winning said war.
I agree that logic dictates that the pirates should have stripped Gargantia off their weapons a long time ago. But I also feel like Gen Urobuchi is trying to set up as contrast the wars on Earth with the wars in space i.e. space exhibits cold logic, earth is more human. Now I am just speculating, but I think something like mutual respect and pride for Lukkage and Fearokk kept things in balance. In the episode, it seemed to be as though the two knew each other personally.
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Old 2013-04-21, 22:13   Link #1002
Guardian Enzo
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As others have pointed out, it's important to remember that Gargantia has to deal with whatever's left when Ledo's gone. He's a visitor at best and an outsider at worst, and he gets to leave. This is a very deliberate allusion to what happens in RW conflicts where superpowers intervene for their own interests - what happens when they go home?
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Old 2013-04-21, 22:22   Link #1003
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replace "pirates" with North Korea

and you'll see why this is a complicated matter.

..
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Old 2013-04-21, 22:34   Link #1004
orpheus2
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Good episode.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
As others have pointed out, it's important to remember that Gargantia has to deal with whatever's left when Ledo's gone. He's a visitor at best and an outsider at worst, and he gets to leave. This is a very deliberate allusion to what happens in RW conflicts where superpowers intervene for their own interests - what happens when they go home?
True. Ledo still wants to return to the front lines. As it stands, Gargantians want to repair to status quo. So that when Ledo is gone, they can still manage. As much as they want to get rid of the pirates, they can't as seen in the naval battle. They more or less lose without Ledo intervening.
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Old 2013-04-21, 22:51   Link #1005
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Just have Ledo kill all the pirates in the world lol. None will come for revenge if they're all dead.

Kind of wanted Chamber to at least vaporize all the pirate fleets instead of just smashing them one by one.

Laughed at how they keep giving Ledo animal caress to eat and he's just like "not this stuff again"

The response to Ledo's killing of the pirates in episode 2 wasn't as big as I thought it would be. Stuff did escalate, but nothing really huge relationship wise.

lol'd @ the pirate queen passing out from the g-force. Don't think she died though.
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Old 2013-04-21, 22:52   Link #1006
Guido
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Ledo, for the time being, tread on a unstable path due to annihilating the pirates in the previous episode; things escalated for the worse once Lukkage's entire pirate ship entered the fray to wash off the humiliation.

I thought it could get worse between Gargantia and Ledo, but Bellows teaching some sense to him about not killing needlessly but to survive together by each contributing something to the whole fleet, made for a straightforward and smooth transition.

The pirates were quick and elusive to pull out the underwater attack to the Gargantia, but they and Lukkage severely underestimated what Chamber could possibly beyond any and all capabilities the Earth's technology can muster.

In the end, Ledo tramples another pirate threat but restraining himself from performing another annihilation of human lives, and that course of action maybe or not can earn him potential membership and stay on the Gargantia, though Ridget and the other members from the High Command still posess their understandable doubts and hostility towards Ledo. However, Amy's more open to the idea about Ledo becoming member of their crew, signifying she almost trusts him completely.
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Old 2013-04-21, 22:56   Link #1007
Cadallin
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Originally Posted by Mangaka-chan View Post
After reading the arguments people have supporting Gargantia killing the pirates rather than warning them off, I thought about this: why don't countries in the Western world kill off all criminals convicted of armed robbery and aggravated assault? Pirates and robbers are arrested, incarcerated for a time, but rarely killed, either by lethal injection or other means.

If one suggests killing those that threaten a fictional society is the most "best" way then why don't we do that to the criminals in our own reality? Why is that? Is it because we in the real world have the space (and land/resources) to incarcerate people? Because we want to give these criminals a second chance? Or is it because we consider the severity of their crime undeserving of the ultimate punishment: death? If so why should we not apply these same standards in fiction? Or does fiction grant us the right to use Occam's Razor to deal with destabilizing elements in society?
Ethically?

Because we don't have to. We have a functional society in which we can, quite simply, afford to incarcerate them rather than killing them. As a result there's is an ethical argument to be made, that if human life is valuable, and it isn't necessary to kill, then it is wrong to do so.

I'd argue the Gargantians are in a different situation, more analogous to tribal hunter gatherer societies. They probably can't afford to lock them up and keep them alive (any more than a hunter gatherer tribe can afford to drag around a large group of people being kept imprisoned). If you can't integrate them into your society (or don't want to because they've murdered and/or raped members of your society) you really don't have much choice.

Its either:

1) Let them go, and deal with the fact that they'll probably come back after a while and try to murder you in your sleep.

2) Kill them.

(Although I guess there's also option 3) Don't kill them, but mutilate/maim them so they'll never be able to come back and do the murdering, but that's unreliable, and IMO, worse than option 2.)

I personally, see no contradiction at all in suggesting that killing legitimately dangerous people is OK in certain survival situations, while it is immoral for a functioning, modern industrial state to use the death penalty.
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Old 2013-04-21, 23:04   Link #1008
Cadallin
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However, (while taking into account my previous post where I think it may be morally acceptable to kill all the pirates) there may be broader political consequences to wiping out the pirates that make it undesirable to do so. We don't really know what other groups there are and what social consequences the Gargantians may suffer for committing what may be regarded as a war crime.
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Old 2013-04-21, 23:35   Link #1009
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Spoiler for Cause you know they'll join Gargantia:
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Old 2013-04-21, 23:44   Link #1010
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Spoiler for Cause you know they'll join Gargantia:
I take the blonde.
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Old 2013-04-21, 23:49   Link #1011
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Weakest episode so far. Mainly because the first two were absolutely awesome, but also because this episode was overall just ok imho.

As I suspected the people of Gargantia didn't react well to the total annihilation of the pirates, but in the end they didn't really make a fuss about it either, Amy was quick to forgive Ledo, almost too quick I'd say.


On the issue of the "pacifist" (let's call it so) logic. In my opinion everything was absolutely rational up to start of the battle.

Anything that Bellows said was absolutely rational, but she never said that "thou shall never kill". She said you shouldn't kill without a reason.
A warship firing its cannons at yours with the possible consequence of causing casualties on your side is a pretty good reason to neutralize it without much regard in my book.
I don't mean to say "kill every single member of its crew" but "disable/sink the ship as quickly as possible, and if someone dies too bad for them".

Naturally this problem wouldn't have come to be if Ledo was sent to fight them alone to begin with, and that was really the worst tactical choice they made imho.
Simply speaking what they should have done was to send Ledo there asap, destroy every single engine of their ship and then leave a clear message that the next time they tried to get close he would have resorted to more "persuasive" measures.


Now on the matter of whether they should just kil all the bastards without mercy. That would be really an awful choice.
As people have pointed out, there is no guarantee that Ledo will be with them forever. It's not smart to play the tyrant if you don't know how long you can exercise your power. As soon as you lose your toy, you can expect retribution.
And to those who say "then just kill ALL the pirates". That's even a worse idea.
We know that there are other fleets beside Gargantia, and we can assume that they have more or less their same view on how humans should act. What would they think about the Gargantia becoming a bunch a mass murderers?
They most likely wouldn't like that even if the victims are pirates, in the end the pirates themselves aren't as bad as a mass murderer is. They probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with the Gargantia ever again. Not very smart to get such a reputation. As Bellows said, humans need other humans, and Gargantia needs the other fleets.
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Old 2013-04-21, 23:52   Link #1012
SQA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadallin View Post
However, (while taking into account my previous post where I think it may be morally acceptable to kill all the pirates) there may be broader political consequences to wiping out the pirates that make it undesirable to do so. We don't really know what other groups there are and what social consequences the Gargantians may suffer for committing what may be regarded as a war crime.
This is a world without any larger organizations, otherwise it would have come up in the considerations/chatter already. This is much more akin to being on the high seas in 1500 than anything people currently alive have really experienced. There's no war crimes: only life or death.

Which is why the brinksmanship peace existed. It cost the Pirates a lot to actually attack a full fleet, but there's certain lines you don't cross in that situation. And Ledo jumped right over it, which really forced the Pirates into a position of having to attack. (The loss of face, pride and respect if they didn't respond would put them at risk) Thus, they attacked.

The bigger issue is how the Gargantia is going to deal with Ledo. He's the de facto dictator of Planet Earth at the moment, whether he realizes it or not. So how he's handled, and the self-restraint to keep them from using his power, is the huge question for this series.
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Old 2013-04-21, 23:52   Link #1013
winkel
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Originally Posted by Drkz View Post
Spoiler for Cause you know they'll join Gargantia:
Really? I can see her the center of an elaborate revenge plot halfway through the series after the hero has gotten "soft" with his new world and friends and she re-reminds him of the cruelty this planet has to offer.
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Old 2013-04-22, 00:04   Link #1014
Cosmic Eagle
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Getting Ledo and Chamber to minimize casualties is extremely wise move given how he can wipe everything out with ease. Earth's way is not the way of the Alliance, especially when you have someone who is essentially a walking WMD who has to be taught that principle.
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Old 2013-04-22, 00:24   Link #1015
PreSage
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Originally Posted by Drkz View Post
Spoiler for Cause you know they'll join Gargantia:
I first suspected those two chained girls to actually default over to Gargantia, considering their less-than humane situation, but I was really surprised when they actually supported their Pirate captain. I guess I didn't realize they could be masochists.

Am I the only one to suspect that there may be
Spoiler for prediction:


Nevertheless, whatever Gargantia tries to do now to return the balance is fruitless as Ledo's initial interference (and simply his presence) has already changed things on Earth.
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Old 2013-04-22, 00:49   Link #1016
Guido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreSage View Post
I first suspected those two chained girls to actually default over to Gargantia, considering their less-than humane situation, but I was really surprised when they actually supported their Pirate captain. I guess I didn't realize they could be masochists.

Am I the only one to suspect that there may be
Spoiler for prediction:


Nevertheless, whatever Gargantia tries to do now to return the balance is fruitless as Ledo's initial interference (and simply his presence) has already changed things on Earth.
Had the entire pirate fleet been wiped out along with their leader, then a power vaccum would have ensued beckoning other parties to fight their way amongst themselves to fill it in, resulting in more wars for power struggle.

I do agree as well that the Earth's current status quo has been demolished now that Ledo played his part; the balance of power has shifted.
Simply, I cannot fathom other fleets dispersed around the seas will remain quiet once the word gets out about the pirate's leader defeat and her entire fleet by just a single machine.
Discussion will turn heated and fear and resetment will grow out due that Gargantia chose to give shelter to Ledo and Chamber; sheltering a weapon to the likes they have never seen or imagined that could wipe them out as well.

Ridget may have agreed to let Ledo stay, but she understandably has her reservations about the issue. Gargantia likely will get unwarranted and unneeded attention and coming with it troubles and dangerous situations to look after.
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Old 2013-04-22, 01:04   Link #1017
theflyingturkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SQA View Post
The bigger issue is how the Gargantia is going to deal with Ledo. He's the de facto dictator of Planet Earth at the moment, whether he realizes it or not. So how he's handled, and the self-restraint to keep them from using his power, is the huge question for this series.
Ledo isn't really much of a threat to the fleet (for now). He see's himself as a temporary guest, just staying in Gargantia for lodging until he can a way to get himself back in the fight with the H-(I can't recall their name).

That said, I really doubt we'll be seeing the Alliance back in the show at the very least. The scale of conflict that the Alliance will bring will just be too much of a change in the overall tone of the show, not to mention the fact that there's literally no way our protagonist to deal with them.

Bringing back the full blown space conflict or even the Alliance in the equation would result in allot of the things and characters that are being built up right now to go out of focus really quickly in the narrative.

Heck, Ledo doesn't even have basic citizen rights in Avalon, if we were to recall the first episode.

Gargantia isn't a show about epic conflicts. It's about people.

(Unless Gen does his usual thing which he promised he wouldn't.)

EDIT: On episode 3:

Yet another great episode, though it was weaker than the first two. Less focus on the characters and more focus on a conflict with an obvious outcome. I was literally smirking when the Empress was acting all high and might, not knowing what trouble she was getting herself into.
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Old 2013-04-22, 01:16   Link #1018
Endless Soul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkz View Post
Spoiler for Cause you know they'll join Gargantia:
Makes me wonder what other things they do for the Pirate Queen.

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Old 2013-04-22, 01:33   Link #1019
Raviel
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I'm liking Chamber more and more with each episode, the bit where he zapped Pinion for entering the cockpit was pretty funny

For the episode itself, I think Ridget's decision to let Ledo stay with the fleet despite him bringing some unwarranted attention was the most practical decision that could have been made given the circumstances. If Gargantia has brought too much attention to itself they might as well keep Chamber and Ledo around to help them because if anything on the scale of the pirate attack they just fought off comes their way again they definitely wouldn't be able to handle it on their own.

It looks like things are going to settle down a bit in the next episode, looks like we'll be getting some more exposition on the setting and lots of Ledo interacting with the crew.

P.S. I wonder if that tooth/bone Ledo keeps with him is going to be significant later.
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Old 2013-04-22, 01:47   Link #1020
Kakkou
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Originally Posted by Raviel View Post
P.S. I wonder if that tooth/bone Ledo keeps with him is going to be significant later.
I bet it'll become Amy's memento of him once he leaves.
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