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Old 2011-04-12, 03:22   Link #1281
Irkalla
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Patch 1.02 is coming out tomorrow, according to what a dev said. Fixes about 100+ issues, both gameplay-wise and with technical specs.
Maker, Yeeeeeees.
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Old 2011-04-12, 03:58   Link #1282
Keroko
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
That's the thing. The Qun isn't overly harsh, it's just restrictive. If it was harsh like extremist Islam, the Chantry wouldn't have such a hard time beating back its influence. The qunari are okay with this because they're clearly not very individualistic compared to humans--which makes sense. They're not human!
Except human converts have been quoted to be just as hard to convert back to the chantry. Several of the codex entries regarding the Qunari note this. After the chantry drove back the Qun, one entire country refused to worship leave the Qun, and had to be purged by the chantry to avoid the spreading of the Qun.

One particular article had a quote from one such convert, it went along the lines of "in the chantry I followed the path of the maker, and wherever it led me. The Qun allowed me to find my own path."

And that is the core of the conflict: Different ideologies. It all comes down to what ideology suits you. Most farmlands are used to obey the whims of lords and priests, to them the life stability and equality found in the Qun would sound very attractive.

That is not to say the Qun is perfect (heck, any religion that says 'join us or die' is already carying a bright red flag for me). People higher on the social ladder for example, could easily find the restricted freedom in the Qun to be close to slavery. And even among the qunari, the lack of freedom can get to much. If the Qun was perfect, there wouldn't be any Tal-Vashoth.

I myself like the Qun because it is something different. The chantry is merely another form of our monotheisms, while the Qun present something refreshingly new that I want to explore.
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Old 2011-04-12, 04:10   Link #1283
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The Qun seems a lot more like Communism than Islam to me

But I can sense some spiritual leanings in their belief so it's probably Confucianism
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Old 2011-04-12, 10:32   Link #1284
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Maker, Yeeeeeees.
They're obviously making an effort to fix things on PC before putting those on consoles, eh? Or they simply do not care?
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Old 2011-04-12, 10:54   Link #1285
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Something that kept on bothering me now that I think back to ym first plathrough.

Spoiler for for ranting about the ending:
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Old 2011-04-12, 11:01   Link #1286
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You gotta admit that they didn't have the best of leads for going after that particular item, tho.
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Old 2011-04-12, 13:49   Link #1287
Keroko
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Actually, Varic was doing the best he could to track Bartrend down. It's just that when he found him, it was too late.

That, and Meredith not having the relic would not have stopped Anders from blowing up the Chantry. Which, in turn, would have given Meredith every excuse to torch the mage tower anyway. Whether or not she would have done so if she didn't have the relic is a matter we can debate on endlessly, but do recall that she already started squeezing the mages long before we even got to the Deep Roads. It was not the relic responsible for that, nor was the relic responsible for Anders' plan.

And this is important. The relic is not the spark that started the war; Anders was.
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Old 2011-04-12, 14:09   Link #1288
kujoe
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Actually, Varic was doing the best he could to track Bartrend down. It's just that when he found him, it was too late.
I do wish it was a main quest that Hawke willingly and actively joined in though.

A guy has just double-crossed you and left you for dead in the freaking Deep Roads. Of course I would like to track down the guy! Instead, Hawke and co. are left to do sidequests.
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Old 2011-04-12, 15:44   Link #1289
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The only thing the primeval lyrium idol really did was turn Meredith into final boss material. The shit-hitting-the-fan was pretty much ALL Anders...

... and inadvertently, you, because you help him build and set the fucking bomb!
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Old 2011-04-12, 16:26   Link #1290
Keroko
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I do wish it was a main quest that Hawke willingly and actively joined in though.

A guy has just double-crossed you and left you for dead in the freaking Deep Roads. Of course I would like to track down the guy! Instead, Hawke and co. are left to do sidequests.
Information gathering is a boring, costly job. Lot's of blah blah, no stab stab. Making it actually matter would mean a long quest chain with very little action, something which you need to be very careful with as a designer.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love dialog-driven quests (seriously, the Dantooine and Manaan crime scene investigation quests are still my favorite quests in KotoR), but a lot of players are rather bloodthirsty and don't want to spend too much time chatting, and get back to the stabbing. These things need to be balanced if you want to keep the game entertaining to as many players as possible.

So... Yeah, I agree with you that this should have been a quest, but I can understand why they didn't.
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Old 2011-04-12, 16:32   Link #1291
kujoe
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Part of information gathering would be travelling (then again, area design is severely limited in the game...), busting some heads and taking names. It's not an impossible task to keep it balanced between plot progression and action.

If gamers nowadays will whine about how the story takes away from the action in an RPG of all things, then I seriously lament this generation. Balancing a story with the action in an RPG should be a given, depending on the nature of the game. This being DA however, already means that there should be a story in there somewhere.
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Old 2011-04-12, 17:15   Link #1292
Keroko
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This is the generation of the action-packed games. There's a reason why shooters are the most popular genre on the map right now. Quick action in the 'in' thing right now, and if you want big numbers, you need to have that.
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Old 2011-04-13, 03:05   Link #1293
-KarumA-
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Actually, Varic was doing the best he could to track Bartrend down. It's just that when he found him, it was too late.

That, and Meredith not having the relic would not have stopped Anders from blowing up the Chantry. Which, in turn, would have given Meredith every excuse to torch the mage tower anyway. Whether or not she would have done so if she didn't have the relic is a matter we can debate on endlessly, but do recall that she already started squeezing the mages long before we even got to the Deep Roads. It was not the relic responsible for that, nor was the relic responsible for Anders' plan.

And this is important. The relic is not the spark that started the war; Anders was.
I agree Anders would have done it anyway, because he's such a big idiot that's why. Had he not then it could have been resolved with more peace and since Hawke is the master of pursuasion I don't really see how Anders could not be convinced- ooh yeh I forgot.. He was stupid enough to take a spirit of the fade in him.
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Old 2011-04-13, 03:50   Link #1294
synaesthetic
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Anders isn't a big idiot; you think he is because Hawke has been spending the past seven years trying to keep Kirkwall from imploding. But Anders doesn't care about Kirkwall--he has his sights on what he sees (thanks to Vengeance and his own anger) as the larger issue. Kirkwall's peace, the lives of its citizens mean nothing compared to the enormous injustice the templars visit upon the mages.

Granted, this isn't an apples to apples comparison, but that's what's important to him. He's a terrorist, basically--he even calmly sits there if you choose to kill him (which was so ridiculously unsatisfying, I won't ever do it again).

Personally I think he should have been a special boss fight for players who choose to side with the templars. After destroying the Chantry, completely unbound from sanity, Vengeance turns him into a super-powered abomination. If siding with the mages, keeping him or putting him out of his misery (with a better cutscene, PLEASE) would be good.

Also the existing fight with Orsino should just not exist. It's stupid, the fight isn't even fun. Meredith really ought to have been the final boss for mage-siders only, with Orsino (not in Harvester form, but with powerful blood magic and summoned demons at his disposal) as the final boss for templar-siders.

With the mages dead and the Rite of Annulment complete, it would be infinitely more satisfying to see Meredith given the justice her character deserves--released from the Souldrinker's hold, horrified at what has happened and what she has done. An epic fall, on the level of Miyo Takano's end in Higurashi no Naku Koro ni--with the Souldrinker/primeval lyrium idol shattering as her will breaks.

Would be a much better ending I think, and also differentiate significantly between the two paths (something Bioware's been pretty bad at, generally).

Edit: Also if any party members turn against you, they should be appropriately buffed to actually be a threat. When Fenris turned against me the first time, I killed him with a single assassinate. Lame.
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Old 2011-04-13, 05:18   Link #1295
kujoe
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Yeah... if you kill Anders, he actually dies with a smile on his face. If you really hated the guy, sending him away is actually more satisfying, as you see his sad face as he leaves. Then, if you side with the mages, you can break his heart even further by telling him that his crime will just mess up the cause of the mages, and to just leave Kirkwall entirely. I didn't even let him have the opportunity or the honour to fight alongside the mages he claims to fight for. Of course, this also pisses off Sebastian... but hey, more drama for DA3.

While I do sympathize with his concerns—with the way mages are being treated and all—he just says some of the more insensitive things in the game, that's it's hard to really like the guy. Not to mention, he pulls off that scheme of his in the end.

I miss the old Anders.
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Old 2011-04-13, 16:49   Link #1296
BetoJR
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Anders isn't a big idiot (...) Personally I think he should have been a special boss fight for players who choose to side with the templars.
Oh, God, how I wish this was the case.
And the better death animation, as it was simply very unsatisfying - I actually reloaded and did it a few more times, but never quite got the satisfaction I wanted out of it.
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Old 2011-04-13, 16:54   Link #1297
SidVicious
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Yeah... if you kill Anders, he actually dies with a smile on his face. If you really hated the guy, sending him away is actually more satisfying, as you see his sad face as he leaves. Then, if you side with the mages, you can break his heart even further by telling him that his crime will just mess up the cause of the mages, and to just leave Kirkwall entirely. I didn't even let him have the opportunity or the honour to fight alongside the mages he claims to fight for. Of course, this also pisses off Sebastian... but hey, more drama for DA3.

While I do sympathize with his concerns—with the way mages are being treated and all—he just says some of the more insensitive things in the game, that's it's hard to really like the guy. Not to mention, he pulls off that scheme of his in the end.

I miss the old Anders.
All because he lost the cat.


Yeah, I'm kidding.
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Old 2011-04-13, 17:10   Link #1298
BetoJR
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I, for one, really do miss Sir Pounce-a-Lot. It made Anders a better person.
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Old 2011-04-13, 17:26   Link #1299
kujoe
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Well, at least his apparent 'death' in Awakenings and how he escaped from it are explained well in the game... except in my playthrough Anders wasn't even considered dead at the end of the siege.

Much different from, let's say, Leliana's if the Warden killed her in the Sacred Ashes quest.

Oh Bioware... Ok, I can accept this retcon, but there are still a few glaring continuity errors that have to be addressed in the game.

Oh by the way, anyone notice the trollface dialog options mod? Hilarious.
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Old 2011-04-13, 17:49   Link #1300
synaesthetic
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Bioware doesn't consider Leliana's death canon, so it's considered AU.
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