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View Poll Results: Sword Art Online - Episode 24 Rating
10 out of 10 : Near Perfect... 52 33.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent... 31 19.87%
8 out of 10 : Very Good... 21 13.46%
7 out of 10 : Good... 16 10.26%
6 out of 10 : Average... 9 5.77%
5 out of 10 : Below Average... 4 2.56%
4 out of 10 : Poor... 4 2.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad... 2 1.28%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad... 1 0.64%
1 out of 10 : Torturous... 16 10.26%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-12-16, 17:50   Link #241
kyp275
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I'd rather he fully embrace the Incarnate System than rely on Kayaba's hax. At least that had been introduced before, alluded to, and shown in Accel World.
Except AW comes after SAO, both in story and real world timeline, to do what you suggests they'd have to retcon the SAO/ALO arc (and make a mess of the later arcs).
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Old 2012-12-16, 17:52   Link #242
Chiibi
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I see. Oh well, I guess such DEM setups just don't bother me.

They're better than the popular "lol let's kill the entire cast lol" tragic endings. Honestly, I'd take a DEM anytime over that. I would only be annoyed if a DEM was outrageously outside of the SAO world. Like, completely unrelated.

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Originally Posted by Oroboro
Although after all is said and done, out of nowhere or not, I still found it entertaining.
Same here.

┐(O_o)┌

.....yeah, I just don't care. lol *waves back*
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Old 2012-12-16, 17:58   Link #243
GDB
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Except AW comes after SAO, both in story and real world timeline, to do what you suggests they'd have to retcon the SAO/ALO arc (and make a mess of the later arcs).
Not at all. Just means that Kirito would be the first to truly use the Incarnate System. How would that mess with anything currently shown? And who gives a shit about later arcs, when this would have been written first? He'd have written with this in mind, so it wouldn't screw with anything.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:01   Link #244
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
As you yourself said, there was no other way to solve it. There was no foreshadowing that this could happen; no allusion at all. It was literally as if the author had written up to there, realized there was no other way out, and went with this instead of having to rewrite prior chapters.
I can't quite agree with this only because it is a very clear and obvious allusion to the end of SAO (both in terms of the solution and the person involved). I think the author intended to depend on this solution all along, because "exceeding the limitations of the game" is supposed to be a recurring theme.

Now, I don't disagree with you, Klashikari, and others that say there could have been more pointers directly in the ALO arc to help support this (without making it so very obvious what the plot twist would be). I can understand why you and others find this unsatisfactory... but I think the whole situation was setup in order for this to happen... as clumsy as that may seem. (This is supported by the "powerless hero" theme that was also apparent throughout the arc, and called-back upon after Sugou's defeat.)


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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Not at all. Just means that Kirito would be the first to truly use the Incarnate System. How would that mess with anything currently shown? And who gives a shit about later arcs, when this would have been written first? He'd have written with this in mind, so it wouldn't screw with anything.
You could argue that this is exactly what both he and Asuna did at the end of the SAO arc already, so indeed it would have been a bit more clearly foreshadowed. I think this is still the essence of what happened here... just that using Heathcliff's ID wasn't really necessary to make this point. (But, on the other hand, if Kirito had just "surpassed the rules of the world" without getting help from Kayaba, people would just say that he's a "hack" of a character. So in a way, him getting the support from Kayaba can be seen as more acceptable/plausible... despite also not being as-clearly foreshadowed.)
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:02   Link #245
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[mod edit: removed spoiler]

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Because somewhere in his mind, he (and me) too yearn for that world. Just ask yourself when you was young, did you ever wish for that final fantasy, pokemon, the world with sword and magic, dungeon and dragon, flying iron castle and the wilderness to be real?
Yes... would I kill 4,000 poeple in the process? Heavens no.
Someone who dreams of their own personal perfect world is an idealistic dreamer; that's someone you can sympathize with. Someone who murders thousands in the pursuit of that personal dream is nothing more than a selfish monster... Sachi and 4,000 others are dead, just because some guy wanted to live out a private fantasy. Their deaths was not some kind of unforeseen accident of something gonna horribly wrong; Kayaba knew this would happen and did it any to fulfill a selfish wish...


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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
Besides, what was Kirito supposed to do, tell him to screw off?
Yes... that would have felt so much better




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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Yeah I got this argument already. Does that make it any less stupid? I'd say no.
Well yes... i mean why would you not except that a sadistic pervert would not take the time to program tear-able clothing...

Quote:
And why is this such an important thing to try and achieve? Why is everyone striving to have it? Is there really any good reason for that? In the big picture it's absolutely pointless because a game can be just as enjoyable without implementing any realism at all.

In case you haven't already figured it out, I strongly dislike things I consider pointless, and realism in video games is one of them.
And that would be just you... if this was the world's attitude we would probably still be playing nothing but 8-bit games. The gaming industry is driven by creating innovated experiences which creates a never ending march of progress. The only thing that holds them back is the current limit on technology that can be mass marketed... you can be sure that there are millions of gamers who would love a gaming experience like ALO. And Game companies would deliver if possible; if not for the profit, but then for the various artists and designers who live to create worlds.



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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
To be honest, they have historical trend on their side. Man went from being land-bound to going to the moon in little more than half a century, and the pace of advancement has only increased since then. Your view that a simple VR with BMI cannot happen in 20 years or even a century runs counter to established trend, especially when neuroscience has already advanced to where we're able to communicate with comatose patients with locked-in syndrome.
Indeed. Moore's Law basically find's that computing technology increases at exponential rates. Its a common trend
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:03   Link #246
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think the author intended to depend on this solution all along, because "exceeding the limitations of the game" is supposed to be a recurring theme.
How is it exceeding the limitations of the game to be given the head-GM's account and disable the other GM's account? That's not exceeding the game limitations, that's activating God Mode.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:03   Link #247
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I'd rather he fully embrace the Incarnate System than rely on Kayaba's hax. At least that had been introduced before, alluded to, and shown in Accel World.
Sadly, that can't really happen. Accel World was written YEARS after Aincrad/Fairy Dance. I guess from our perspective, with the AW Anime having been released before the SAO one, and the idea that AW is the future of SAO being something that gets tossed around all the time, we can make that justification at the end of Aincrad. But as a standalone story, even the "Incarnate System" is effectively DEM.

Kawahara Reki does get better at not DEMing his stories as time goes by. If anything, I believe that Fairy Dance is a bit of an experimental outlier that messes with a whole bunch of plot concepts that he didn't use with Aincrad.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:05   Link #248
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
You're both awfully optimistic about this sort of thing.
Those words remind me of the computer salesman that sold us our first PC, confidently telling us this was "one of the fastest PC's" and that we'd "be good for the next twenty years."

Not even five years later we were already looking to upgrade.

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Again call me skeptic, but even if a virtual reality system like the one in SAO is conceived in the next 20 or so years, I seriously doubt it'll be something the general public is going to have easy access to for another hundred or so. It'll probably be something strictly limited to governmental or institutional use like the examples you give.
Please, the development speed of entertainment systems has reached a point where the governmental institutions are taking cues from the industry if not porting systems wholesale. And a hundred years? This isn't the 1930's where advancements in such tech was still getting started. In todays age of global information such tech will not remain a secret for long. And with the global marketing anything that can make money will be capitalized on to do so. Given the sheer -and growing- size of the gaming industry, there is no way that if virtual reality tech reached a usable level that it won't be used to bring gaming to the next level.

The thought alone that the gaming industry would somehow be left behind with this gem of technology available is ridiculous. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo would be racing to be the first to develop a working system.

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I realize this. I just don't count myself as one of them.
An opinion I respect, but you bring it as if it is true for everyone and the reason why the advancements in something as simple as cloth physics is bad storytelling.

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Virtual clothing is only one aspect of the general idea which is that I don't like it when games are too realistic. Looking and moving in a realistic way is one thing, but being able to tear it off another player is going too far and largely inappropriate in a real-world sense. Such a thing could never be implemented in any sort of game especially an MMO if you don't want rating boards and various other organizations cracking down on you hard.
Nonsense. Naked Night Elves dancing on mail boxes has been in WoW since it's launch and has never, ever left. A reason for clothing damage is relatively simple. Equipment in almost any MMO has durability damage, the rending and tearing brings this damage to a visible spectrum.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:08   Link #249
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Yes... would I kill 4,000 poeple in the process? Heavens no.
Someone who dreams of their own personal perfect world is an idealistic dreamer; that's someone you can sympathize with. Someone who murders thousands in the pursuit of that personal dream is nothing more than a selfish monster... Sachi and 4,000 others are dead, just because some guy wanted to live out a private fantasy. Their deaths was not some kind of unforeseen accident of something gonna horribly wrong; Kayaba knew this would happen and did it any to fulfill a selfish wish...
No one is denying that. Not even Kirito. But it's still common courtesy to thank someone for helping you out of a jam. As for crushing the world seed... You may not like the manner in which it came about, but it still is a wonderful thing. It would be such a waste to not use it, now that it's there.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:08   Link #250
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Because it's what developers want to make and consumers want to buy, which is really one reason more than absolutely necessary.
Well I can't really disagree with this. I dislike it, but I can't do anything about what other people like and want.

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That's like saying a dish can be just as good without heat. It's true, and I like sushi, but I wouldn't want to be without deep frying or any of the many possibilities given by oven, frying pans and the like.

And frankly, all other things being equal, I'd rather have better graphics, better physics, and so on and so forth. It's not like crappy eight bit graphics make the game better, or we'd never have moved away from them.
Indeed. That's a personal preference. I like cooked food and you like cooked food. You like realism in games and I don't. Isn't individuality wonderful?

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And in case you haven't already figured it out, the world doesn't revolve around you. There's lots of things I dislike, but I wouldn't be so dumb as to expect people who do enjoy them to renounce them just because of me.

It's nice that you can feel superior thanks to your appreciation of the high artistry of Pong, but seriously - nobody else cares.
Right like I'm expecting you all to start disliking game realism just because I do. Only a egocentric fool would believe such a thing and I sure as hell am not that stupid. All I was doing was expressing my dislike for game realism and all everyone else has been doing is bringing up arguments hoping to convince me otherwise. Not even once have I renounced anyone for liking it either making such claims is kind of rude.

Pong is hardly high artistry BTW. If anything it's probably one of the more boring retro games. And if you didn't care, why are you even responding?

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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
To be honest, they have historical trend on their side. Man went from being land-bound to going to the moon in little more than half a century, and the pace of advancement has only increased since then. Your view that a simple VR with BMI cannot happen in 20 years or even a century runs counter to established trend, especially when neuroscience has already advanced to where we're able to communicate with comatose patients with locked-in syndrome.
Mmmmm I dunno. The first virtual reality game was released in 1980 and aside from an improvement in in-game visuals the technology for the medium hasn't come very far since then. That's mostly the basis for my skepticism as it's still all very vision-based stuff, even 30 years later.

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Is there really any good reason not to? Just because you enjoy certain types of game hardly means that's the only right way to enjoy a game. I don't diss people who like retro games, I enjoy quite a few myself, but it's a different story when it comes to those who would disparage and rally against progress simply because it doesn't fit with their taste.
I'm not against technological progress. If you ask me anyone who is would be a total nutball. Not sure why you're getting the idea I'm telling you games in realism is wrong and not something that people should want in it, I myself just don't think it's very important. I do understand other people find it necessary. If my choice of words or something has been giving off that impression than I apologize.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:11   Link #251
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Yupp, one of the more obvious odd things with this arc is that most of it is told from the perspective of Suguha. It's not as obvious in the anime, but do note how when they take a break we see what Suguha does, but then we stay in ALO when Kirito leaves.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:12   Link #252
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Well, can you think of an another way Kirito could have possibly won against an all-powerful admin? o_O
Tough one, but one thing that comes to mind would be Yui using the privileges she got from the admin card to accesses the system and lock out Sugou's admin privileges thus forcing him to fight kirito fair and square. Or something along those lines. Its not much different than Kirito using Kayaba's admin powers, but atleast this would have some forward explanation behind it since Yui is an advanced AI and we know that the card gave Yui the kind of access that only admins have
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:21   Link #253
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
How is it exceeding the limitations of the game to be given the head-GM's account and disable the other GM's account? That's not exceeding the game limitations, that's activating God Mode.
Yes, it was alluded to in Kayaba's conversation with Kazuto -- that he was the one who exceeded the limits of his game, so he was better than to be defeated by this setback. But then, Kayaba granted him the "cheat". So it was connected to the theme, but the specific method used wasn't in accordance with the theme. This is because (as I added above), the secondary theme here was also "I thought I was powerful but I'm actually weak". So this particular plot development is at the intersection of these two themes. (Kazuto as one who can bend the rules of the world, but who needed "a bit of help" in his hour of need as he struggled with his own uselessness.)
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:24   Link #254
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Just mentioning the theme doesn't make it connected to the theme.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:27   Link #255
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Mmmmm I dunno. The first virtual reality game was released in 1980 and aside from an improvement in in-game visuals the technology for the medium hasn't come very far since then. That's mostly the basis for my skepticism as it's still all very vision-based stuff, even 30 years later.
Which is why I put the development of Nervgear as a prerequisite. But once it's there? It'll be unstoppable.


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I'm not against technological progress. If you ask me anyone who is would be a total nutball. Not sure why you're getting the idea I'm telling you games in realism is wrong and not something that people should want in it, I myself just don't think it's very important. I do understand other people find it necessary. If my choice of words or something has been giving off that impression than I apologize.
Because you denounced clothing physics as bad writing, for the sole reason that you dislike realism. Whereas a more objective POV is that most people like realism, and therefore would welcome clothing physics. (Even if they have other priorities and may consider it negligible compared to other aspects, it would in no case count as a minus.) As for whether it'd be included in a VR game or not, it would depend and cost/benefit, and we can't possibly analyze that.

That's what we've been saying. Nobody's been trying to convince you that you have to prefer realism.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:34   Link #256
Keroko
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
I'm not against technological progress. If you ask me anyone who is would be a total nutball. Not sure why you're getting the idea I'm telling you games in realism is wrong and not something that people should want in it, I myself just don't think it's very important. I do understand other people find it necessary. If my choice of words or something has been giving off that impression than I apologize.
Some of us got that idea by the time you started calling the advancement of realism in games a waste of time.

And really, that wasn't even the point people were trying to make. That's what it turned into when you started moving the goalpost. The real point people were making is from back when you claimed that clothing damage is physically impossible, and the real point was that it isn't impossible for clothing damage to exist in SAO games, since the basic technology to do so already exists right here and now.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:38   Link #257
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Not at all. Just means that Kirito would be the first to truly use the Incarnate System. How would that mess with anything currently shown? And who gives a shit about later arcs, when this would have been written first? He'd have written with this in mind, so it wouldn't screw with anything.
Because the Incarnate System simply does not exist in SAO. The basis on which the IS will be built upon exists, but that's not the same as the system already being in place.

AW was written long after the entire SAO series had already concluded, the Incarnate System in AW is something Kawahara created base on his work in SAO, how could he have written SAO with IS in mind, when it wouldn't have been created 'til years later?
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:38   Link #258
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Those words remind me of the computer salesman that sold us our first PC, confidently telling us this was "one of the fastest PC's" and that we'd "be good for the next twenty years."

Not even five years later we were already looking to upgrade.
The guy was a salesman. He obviously had to make an exaggeration to make the sale.

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The thought alone that the gaming industry would somehow be left behind with this gem of technology available is ridiculous. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo would be racing to be the first to develop a working system.
Kind of makes me think of the space race between America and the Soviet Union. It's a bit silly to imagine such an industry to be competitive to such a huge degree, but then again when I think about their goal being to make as great an income as possible, yeah I suppose they would go that far.

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An opinion I respect, but you bring it as if it is true for everyone and the reason why the advancements in something as simple as cloth physics is bad storytelling.
I was sure I didn't but maybe I didn't watch my words well enough. Also, no the cloth physics thing was more-or-less an attack against my suspension of disbelief, not the writing style of SAO's author. There's other factors of the series that are WAY more guilty of that.

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Nonsense. Naked Night Elves dancing on mail boxes has been in WoW since it's launch and has never, ever left. A reason for clothing damage is relatively simple. Equipment in almost any MMO has durability damage, the rending and tearing brings this damage to a visible spectrum.
Oh I don't doubt making clothes break is impossible in a game, I've seen it before, only it doesn't really work as realistically as it did in this SAO episode. The only real game-like thing about it was it disappearing after it got ripped off. Everything else was way too detailed for it to be game-like.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:42   Link #259
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Because the Incarnate System simply does not exist in SAO. The basis on which the IS will be built upon exists, but that's not the same as the system already being in place.
It exists enough that they surpassed the system in Aincrad. That's enough for him to write it in if he wanted to.

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AW was written long after the entire SAO series had already concluded, the Incarnate System in AW is something Kawahara created base on his work in SAO, how could he have written SAO with IS in mind, when it wouldn't have been created 'til years later?
SAO isn't over. And clearly he could've written it into SAO if he wanted to/had thought of it earlier. Saying he hadn't done it yet as a viable reason for not possibly including it is ridiculous reasoning when he clearly had the ability to think of it, since he eventually does.

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Oh I don't doubt making clothes break is impossible in a game, I've seen it before, only it doesn't really work as realistically as it did in this SAO episode. The only real game-like thing about it was it disappearing after it got ripped off. Everything else was way too detailed for it to be game-like.
Look at the difference in graphical quality between one generation and another. The N64 is less than 10 years old. The graphics have improved by a ridiculous exponential amount since then. There's no reason why it'd be impossible for clothes to realistically rip.
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Old 2012-12-16, 18:48   Link #260
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Look at the difference in graphical quality between one generation and another. The N64 is less than 10 years old.
This post confused me so much at first, but then I realized you probably meant to say 20. :p
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