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Old 2012-12-23, 01:26   Link #361
Eragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
stop it already with the terrible reputation replacement ideas, aaaaaaa, you're making my hair turn gray at the mature age of 26

debating is about trying to convince other people to share or at least understand your opinion, it's not a goddamned election and adding voting to it is a stupid idea
Don't worry, don't worry, no new system is coming in place of this one anytime soon(if relentless keeps his word)
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Old 2012-12-23, 01:41   Link #362
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
Don't worry, don't worry, no new system is coming in place of this one anytime soon(if relentless keeps his word)
The forum will run without a system for a time, and we're not looking for a replacement immediately. But I can't promise if or when any sort of new feedback system may be put in place. Time will tell.
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Old 2012-12-23, 04:19   Link #363
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
But I can't promise if or when any sort of new feedback system may be put in place.
But you can promise that you won't drop it on us out of the blue if you ever come up with a replacement.
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Old 2012-12-23, 06:41   Link #364
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krono View Post
I do not think a "thanks" system of some sort would be a problem. Sure there would be debates where it would end up meaning "I agree with you and I want to take a stand". That's not a problem
No, it is a problem. "I agree" posts are banned for a reason. A system where you can press an "I agree" button would just be allowing such posts by proxy.

I would like to remind you that a discussion forum is, at least in theory, a place for trying to convince other people to share your opinions, or if you cannot do that, at least make them understand where you're coming from. It is not a competition, nor is it an poll of which opinion is the most popular. If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion, nobody gives a shit if you agree or not. If you wish to compliment a poster on a particularly well written post, you can do so by PM.

All of the proposals for a replacement suffer from the exact same problems that the reputation system did. They encourage people to take sides, they discourage people from having nuanced opinions that do not fall within the established "camps" and they make the opinions of popular individuals appear more important than others. In other words, they encourage circlejerking.

I know some people here (Triple_R is a particularly serious offender) really love the idea of some kind of posting hierarchy system that encourages people to judge other posters by their popularity rather than what they actually write. It's a terrible idea and you are all terrible people for loving it so much.

We demand equal opportunity posting! Death to the posting bourgeoisie! Join the marxist-leninist posters union today!
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2012-12-23, 07:06   Link #365
Coldlight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
All of the proposals for a replacement suffer from the exact same problems that the reputation system did. They encourage people to take sides, they discourage people from having nuanced opinions that do not fall within the established "camps" and they make the opinions of popular individuals appear more important than others.
Including the previous proposals for a completely neutral feedback message system that is devoid of points, polarity (i.e. positive & negatives or likes & dislikes), dots, and anonymity?
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Old 2012-12-23, 07:09   Link #366
Masuzu
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What's this I'm hearing about equal posting? That only works when we're all anonymous.
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Old 2012-12-23, 07:42   Link #367
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
No, it is a problem. "I agree" posts are banned for a reason.
Yes, it's because they clutter and bump threads with low value posts. An "I agree" button wouldn't do that. It's a low commitment feedback.

You may not care about - or for - feedback, but some people do, at various degrees. I don't see what's wrong with that.
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Old 2012-12-23, 07:44   Link #368
Masuzu
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^ He's afraid of the big bad circlejerking, good heavens anything but that.

On a more serious note, I quite like how things are right now without a system.
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Old 2012-12-23, 08:16   Link #369
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldlight View Post
Including the previous proposals for a completely neutral feedback message system that is devoid of points, polarity (i.e. positive & negatives or likes & dislikes), dots, and anonymity?
in other words, a private messaging system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You may not care about - or for - feedback, but some people do, at various degrees. I don't see what's wrong with that.
I told you what's wrong with it. A debate is not a poll, and pretending that it is encourages bad discussion habits.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2012-12-23, 08:19   Link #370
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
in other words, a private messaging system?
Wait, so you want to get PM'd by 10+ people who either agrees or disagrees with you every time you make a sensical post ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
I told you what's wrong with it. A debate is not a poll, and pretending that it is encourages bad discussion habits.
How can you have a debate without people supporting and opposing a certain idea?
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Old 2012-12-23, 08:27   Link #371
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Wait, so you want to get PM'd by 10+ people who either agrees or disagrees with you every time you make a sensical post ?
No, I don't care who agrees with me. If they think I've made a good post they can tell me about it, but I don't really care about that either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
How can you have a debate without people supporting and opposing a certain idea?
"I agree" is not an opinion relevant to the debate. If you have something to say, feel free to say it. If you only agree or disagree with something but don't want to elaborate, then don't post. Your opinion is irrelevant. Debating is about exchanging ideas, and "I agree" is not an idea worth exchanging.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read

Last edited by TheFluff; 2012-12-23 at 08:40.
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Old 2012-12-23, 08:33   Link #372
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
No, I don't care who agrees with me. If they think I've made a good post they can tell me about it, but I don't really care about that either.
That is what "You" think, but that does mean that there are not people out there who do care about that and don't want to get like hundreds pm's in a week? So your idea of taking that to the pm system is not really a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
"I agree" is not an opinion relevant to the debate. If you have something to say, feel free to say it. If you only agree or disagree with something but don't want to elaborate, then don't post. Your opinion is irrelevant. Debating is about exchanging ideas, and "I agree" is not an idea worth exchanging.
And how many posts in this thread were just "I agree" ? The majority of the posts in this thread agreeing or disagreeing a certain idea had some kind of explanation to back up their opinion. This does lead into a discussion (although a short lived one from what i have seen in this thread because people don't follow it up any further)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen. (Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.) Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1922)
Based on things that you posted a few pages ago, this is rather a huge hypocrisy coming from someone like you though.
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Old 2012-12-23, 08:40   Link #373
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
That is what "You" think, but that does mean that there are not people out there who do care about that and don't want to get like hundreds pm's in a week? So your idea of taking that to the pm system is not really a solution.
It was not my idea. I was pointing out that the feedback system Coldlight referred to would basically be the same as a PM system. I don't think such a system would be useful and I don't think it should be instated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
And how many posts in this thread were just "I agree" ?
Too many. People need to learn to stop posting if they don't have anything to say.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen. (Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.)
Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1922)
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2012-12-23, 08:49   Link #374
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post


Too many. People need to learn to stop posting if they don't have anything to say.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen. (Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.)
Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1922)
Kind of overstatement (like most of your posts do) without any backups of that claim. In the last 10 pages there were only a few who (like kholdstare, but he editted his post in the mean time) did that.

It's rather in your defence of not wanting any replacement of the reputation system is the reason why you want to "shut up" other people.
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Old 2012-12-23, 08:59   Link #375
hyperborealis
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Two suggestions.

1. Tie user reps not to members, but to posts. Allow for pos / neg repping of posts, so that a person with more net positive posts would have higher rep / green bars.

2. System should not be cumulative, but reflect last x months of participation.

Will miss the old system's contribution to a sense of forum community and history...anything that we come up with that will add to these I am for, even if it has nothing to do with member reps.
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Old 2012-12-23, 09:18   Link #376
Coldlight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
It was not my idea. I was pointing out that the feedback system Coldlight referred to would basically be the same as a PM system. I don't think such a system would be useful and I don't think it should be instated.
I should have mentioned one important detail from one of that system's similar proposals (from Vexx's suggestion): the plan was to "salvage/rig/cripple" the existing rep system into a neutral feedback system tied to posts and user CPs.

This means that character limits (from the comment field of the old rep system) would still be in place so it doesn't really become redundant with the existing PM system. Something like this should help take care of the "Thank you" and "I agree" post clutter problem. Otherwise, we're just moving the clutter out of threads and into people's visitor pages and PM inboxes.
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Old 2012-12-23, 09:25   Link #377
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
in other words, a private messaging system?
That would be too much commitment from both the sender and the recipient.


Quote:
I told you what's wrong with it. A debate is not a poll, and pretending that it is encourages bad discussion habits.
Two points:
- a forum isn't (necessarily) a vehicle for formal debates. It's for discussions. In which a sense of community can be conveyed by what IRL would be non-verbal communication. The rep system was a means of communicating without full posts or PM (which would be overkill). Besides, not all posts that are rewarded are about debates at all.
- I could just as easily claim that not having feedback would encourage people they're the voice of the majority speaking out against a tiny but vocal minority. Nobody posts to agree with me? Why, it's because my posts are so perfect, nobody on my side has anything to add.
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Old 2012-12-23, 09:50   Link #378
TheFluff
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Kind of overstatement (like most of your posts do) without any backups of that claim. In the last 10 pages there were only a few who (like kholdstare, but he editted his post in the mean time) did that.
one is one too many

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
It's rather in your defence of not wanting any replacement of the reputation system is the reason why you want to "shut up" other people.
I don't want people to shut up, quite the opposite. I want people to post meaningful things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
- I could just as easily claim that not having feedback would encourage people they're the voice of the majority speaking out against a tiny but vocal minority. Nobody posts to agree with me? Why, it's because my posts are so perfect, nobody on my side has anything to add.
you are certainly free to claim it but I find it to be an exceptionally weak argument

Seriously, people, read relentlessflame's posts again before you start requesting a feedback system. We had one, and it was found to create a few small circles of people patting each other's backs and impopular opinions being suppressed. Who coulda thunk it! In what way do you imagine that your proposals would prevent these two issues from popping up again?

Regardless of what you can come up with, I'll tell you that the proposed feedback systems all suffer from the exact same problems and I have no idea what makes you unable to see it. Cliques and circlejerking are a problem that already exists on all non-anonymous discussion forums, and it's not exactly hard to predict that any kind of meta-posting feedback system will just exacerbate such issues. It's human nature.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-12-23 at 13:31.
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Old 2012-12-23, 09:53   Link #379
Liddo-kun
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A few days of a no reputation Animesuki.. hard to describe the feeling, but the place feels strangely relaxed. Looking forward to the full implementation of reputation removal, just a few days from now.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2012-12-23 at 10:52.
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Old 2012-12-23, 10:44   Link #380
Coldlight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
In what way do you imagine that your proposals would prevent these two issues from popping up again?
For one thing, the "circlejerking" problem would become a useless activity in a neutral system without any points or "like" option, if the desire to "gather points" to fill up a "social meter of approval" is what drove it in the first place. They could try to exchange as many short messages of approval as they want between their allies, but because there is no "meter" and that nobody else but the receiver and the mods could see the messages, it's still useless as an activity to "improve social standing" in the forums.

If the fear of neg rep is what suppressed unpopular opinions, then how would a neutral, short feedback system without neg rep or "dislike" option suppress it? Since anonymity would also be done away with, any flames sent to the poster through the system would reveal the flamer, and allow the poster to either report it or respond in kind in a private flame war.

Somehow it seems my previous post at the bottom of the previous page was totally ignored.
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