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Old 2012-12-16, 01:06   Link #101
Traece
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Rep system is turned off?

Now I'll never have more rep than Narona!
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Old 2012-12-16, 01:11   Link #102
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Vexx-jiisan is married to a fine lady, KiNa's a great contributor of graphics and other niceties, TRL is a mature, capable journalist in real life, Triple_R is a fine gentleman who likes to make long thoughtful posts about thoughtful things, and Haak is fun and nice and very active, yet he never struck me as being a lolicon, (although he took blows from his contrary opinions in the AO thread recently, going by his rep history he just posted. Ow).

They are not like us, Saintess. Do not taint them with our sins.

lol-i
How have I sinned? I follow the aniki hogosha no michi, a long lost sub-ideology of the Bushido Code. It is my duty to protect lolis from harmful influences and an imperative action that I bring them within the safe boundaries of my home - naming me a lolicon in negative context is certainly unfair!

Seriously though, there are a few posters who deserve to up on the list like the A-Masters of Caustic Criticism - Aohige, Anh Minh and Ascaloth. Their merit often goes unseen maybe due to their post lengths when delivering a pertinent reply; either that or people just passively read and not appreciate the voices of reason.

This removal of rep system gives me a mixed feeling. Maybe we should open a poll on it to see whether it is welcome or not.
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Old 2012-12-16, 01:16   Link #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
This removal of rep system gives me a mixed feeling. Maybe we should open a poll on it to see whether it is welcome or not.
As I said before, we are not considering a poll on this topic, as the decision is made. We are currently accepting feedback on what people may feel the merits of the system were as possible consideration for any future feedback system, but there are no plans for this at this time. Restoring rep in its currently form is not likely to be considered.
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Old 2012-12-16, 01:38   Link #104
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I don't want to generalize this thread, but here are the things that I see coming up a lot.

1) Most of the posts is about negative reputation. Is it the entire problem? Probably not. But it's apparently a major part of it.

2) Most of the problems about any proposed reputation system isn't about the system itself, but it's about how people can misuse it into something not originally intended.

Here's what I think. First of all, yes I think this was a good idea and a nice change. There is some nostalgic factor though, so I support another system implemented. While some uses the rep system for stupid things, I see it as something fun. Forget all the problems that comes with the rep system, don't treat it so seriously, because it's just something that people can enjoy. A positive rep can do a lot, maybe brighten a bad day, because it means someone appreciated something you said. That can never be a bad thing. The reverse is also true. Sometimes I want to let someone know they made a good point without actually posting something useless like, "I agree" or "Good point."

So I would advocate bringing back something some system of positive rep only, and make it unweighted. Will all problems be solved? No. Some group of people will still "circle jerk" around for rep. But screw them. Why should they ruin it for the rest of us? Don't show how many rep a post has (like now) or make it appear as hover text. I just had lots of fun with the rep system, and I sort of view it as an integral part of AnimeSuki even if it's been meaningless for quite a while with overbloated rep powers and such. That's because something can be almost meaningless and still fun. Please consider that.
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Old 2012-12-16, 02:00   Link #105
ChainLegacy
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Good idea on getting rid of it. I disagree that it was a good troll indicator, which is the only concern I see as legitimate here. I recall a member who was very trollish with very high rep, don't know if he still posts as I haven't seen him in a while (maybe he was banned). I never turned mine off because of the reason that people might think a black rep meant you were a troll yourself. I remember when everyone had one green dot when I first started posting here and I think it was such an afterthought that it didn't affect posts really.
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Old 2012-12-16, 02:12   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Good idea on getting rid of it. I disagree that it was a good troll indicator, which is the only concern I see as legitimate here. I recall a member who was very trollish with very high rep, don't know if he still posts as I haven't seen him in a while (maybe he was banned).
This, tbh. I always found it a problem when "a high rep count = this member is valuable and knows what he's talking about!"

Myself being a good example. Most of those rep points are from GFX thanks and appreciation. I'm bad at debating and arguing usually, so it sure gives the wrong indication!

Glad to see the rep thing go, though I will miss it for giving thanks and such. Then again, that's what you can use VMs for.
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Old 2012-12-16, 02:19   Link #107
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As suggested.

Why not make neg rep unavailable? I mean, you could only give + rep and not - rep as an option....

Advantage:

> Only positive rep could be sent.
> No more foul mouth comments
> No back stab post.
> No depressing feelings or loss of confidence to newbies.
> There is a feeling of security.
> No deduction of rep points.

" If you could not say something nice to somebody, better not to say it at all.."


Disadvantage

> The bad commenting goes on the thread of source. The rage will continue only there or through PM or VMs ( which I think could be solved easily by MODs through reports/complaints from warring parties and settled through deletion of insulting, senseless post , giving warnings, infractions and worst be banned completely of course by the MODs.

I think that'll be more fair to both sides. This is to insure that the good intentions of rep system is preserve and its bad side removed....

Last edited by NoemiChan; 2012-12-16 at 02:47.
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Old 2012-12-16, 02:40   Link #108
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I would rep your post if I could GenjiChan. Nice summary. I also think adding an unweighted system (where old, old users can't just +30 rep someone) makes it nice.

For those who points out that "high rep count doesn't automatically means he knows what he's talking about", then great! If you can come to that conclusion, then I'm sure others will do so too. Maybe not immediately, but if they are actually somewhat involved in the community, then they will figure it out.
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Old 2012-12-16, 02:49   Link #109
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I think that anonymous negative rep is just one of the problems with the reputation system. Even if you just have positive rep it is still:

- a system that people can easily game to support their friends/allies rather than actual good posting behaviour
- a status symbol that people can use to pre-judge a poster (or to measure their own perceived "worth")
- a tool that people can still use anonymously to make people feel bad even if they're giving "positive points" in the process

Removing negative rep also removes one of the claimed benefits that was already suggested of being able to quickly tell who is possibly a less-well-regarded poster (i.e. a possible troll or unpleasant element), as one's rep could only go up. Someone who has little rep doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad poster.

It may be seen as a solution to "a problem", but I'm not sure that it really addresses the entirety of the problem. (And to be honest, the staff did consider this whole issue rather extensively. If we felt the whole problem could be solved by simply removing neg rep, we could have easily done that long ago. I'm inclined to think that the change we need is probably a bit more substantial/fundamental.)
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:10   Link #110
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The thing about positive rep only is that as Relentless pointed out, can be used to offend people anyways. Ex: Your post makes me feel better about myself since it was so poorly done

It would also create inflation to the point where the bars become meaningless. Even with a rep sink in the form of negs it will bloat to the point eventually where everyone has max bars. Two years ago, 7 bars was rare but now any random nub that names themselves after a soft drink can get it. I mean, really. In the end, it still really doesn't mean that much. People that make avatars and sigs can make a thread with it, and if you see someone with 136 friends and all the avatars made from that one person, it is obvious what to think. You don't need any special badge to prove yourself. Good posts stand out on their own. I didn't suddenly become a better poster just because someone decided to award me more points. My posts were great to begin with. (Or shitty, depending on who you are)
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:13   Link #111
Irenicus
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[serious mode on]

I think it would be "fairer" and certainly more productive, relentlessflame, if you would summarize for the general members what these these extensive discussions entail. We certainly know its ultimate result -- you intend to scrap the whole system -- but asking for feedback in a vacuum will only get opinions along the lines of "well I liked it," "no it sucked," "I turned it off," "lol elitists," and all the other repetitions that you must have noticed from previous threads. I myself don't have much more to say except that like many people I like greens and not reds, like thank you's and don't like flames, and isn't really so attached to my dots as to huff about it (though the thing I will miss the most is when someone repped a long post I posted a year ago, as it was an opportunity to indulge in a bit of forum nostalgia).

As clearly there is no general uprising against the decision, and moreover you are framing this feedback thread as a ground for what should be done going forward, how about sharing the bullet points of what your team have concluded from your discussions? It would be much easier to answer you if we know what you're really looking for.

What do you want to see in a feedback system? What don't you want to deal with, the moderation annoyances that must have factored in your decision to abandon the rep system? What are some of the speculations going forward (though, as always, a "none of the above, no replacement" is always a choice)? What persistent trends have been noted regarding rep usage? Site staff has far more information than the average user, your apparently extensive discussions should certainly raise a few. Do you actually think a feedback system is necessary? Have you thought about whether you want this feedback to be user-based, or post-based?

Spill it, tell us everything, or at least everything that can be prudently publicly shared, then I hope to give you a better answer of I may want to see or not from there. Note that right now the average user answering you in this thread only knows a few facts: one, their own usage pattern, both on the receiving and giving end, two, that rep system is going to be done away with, three, that there is a rep inflation (which I am apparently a primary beneficiary :X). Everything else, including suggestions about general pattern of user behavior ("the ones with long green lines are all in cliques") is speculation or the piecemeal gossip from staff posts.

You should know, as well, that what members say they will do with a system is never really what's going to happen in a system. Not because the members who answer are dishonest, but because they're a tiny minority, and because they are, by and large, humans (I have to acknowledge the presence of a few stray lolicons, trolls, and ponies). Rely on your human experience instinct when you come up with whatever decision eventually comes up.

[/serious mode off]
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:20   Link #112
relentlessflame
 
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I think I've already said plenty about my feelings on the issue, and some other staff have already chimed in with opinions of their own. They can continue to do so as they wish. I don't intend to "spill" the staff's private discussions beyond the opinions I'm offering here. Although the staff have a perspective (and it's not like our opinions are all exactly the same), everyone on the forum is also a user of rep, so that perspective is useful as well. We're not seeking feedback because we're at a loss for what to do, exactly, but because we are interested in other points of view. My sharing my reactions to the comments is just meant to provide some insight into other points of view that influence the current decision and may need to be overcome as we consider future solutions.

Our objective is that we will at least go for a time without a reputation system so that everyone can experience what it's like to not have such a thing. After that experience, we may all be in a better position to look rationally at what we had before vs. what we have "now" vs. what we want to have in the future. Right now, I'm not sure that most of the comments can be fully objective without being able to make this comparison (since rep has been around for so long and few remember a time here without it). At least that is a key element of the current direction.

(Edit: In other words, consider that the result of our discussions was actually this decision to retire the current rep system. If we had a fully organized position paper on what we'd consider for a future system, and if it were doable, then I'm sure we could have just implemented the new system instead of doing this.)
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:26   Link #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
- a system that people can easily game to support their friends/allies rather than actual good posting behavior.
...and I thought you have to support you friends.

Seriously now, yes that is kinda true but is it a really a problem to be alarmed with? Not all are that uhmm.. narrow... I remember I had a discussion with Triple R and we aren't friends back then ( are we really friends now?) but he still gave me a + rep for my continuous discussion though we never agree until the end.

Anyway going back. Ain't there already a limit of how many rep one could sent to the same person in a period of time. Just expand it 2x fold ( don't kill me guys ). It'll be too long that they may even forget that they owe the person a rep point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
- a status symbol that people can use to pre-judge a poster (or to measure their own perceived "worth")
Not when the neg rep is removed, they could discuss with the "veterans" with out the fear of getting neg rep. Actually, its the fear of neg rep that halts people from arguing with the "veterans" but without it, its free for all. I based that on my actual experience, imagine -20 and a newbie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
- a tool that people can still use anonymously to make people feel bad even if they're giving "positive points" in the process
Huh? I don't actually get this.. Why not just make the sender's name appear during its send. By this, MODs could also track who sends too much to somebody.. a solution on the first argument... cracking down the anarchist in AS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Removing negative rep also removes one of the claimed benefits that was already suggested of being able to quickly tell who is possibly a less-well-regarded poster (i.e. a possible troll or unpleasant element), as one's rep could only go up. Someone who has little rep doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad poster.
I think its the neg rep that pushes them down when they disagree with others. Removing the neg rep with somehow removed that hindrance on the way up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It may be seen as a solution to "a problem", but I'm not sure that it really addresses the entirety of the problem. (And to be honest, the staff did consider this whole issue rather extensively. If we felt the whole problem could be solved by simply removing neg rep, we could have easily done that long ago. I'm inclined to think that the change we need is probably a bit more substantial/fundamental.)
I think the problem is that small part of the system that a few abuses.

If a tank has a small leak, you don't have to buy a new one. Just plug it.

@ Archon Wing > to be honest, I was never a good speaker since I was back on college... and I suck in English... All I could do is draw because that is my skill.... I don't have to prove myself that I'm a good speaker because I'm just an artist..
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:35   Link #114
Crontica
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It looks like just about everyone has forgotten the Ume flamewar that happened on this forum, by god i just about neg rep'd every post i came across.

I think a green or red box rep system would be far much better, after a unspecified amount of time clicking the red box, your name turns red, green box for green name and vice versa.

I think it's pretty obvious the rep system has been used as "a system that people can easily game to support their friends/allies rather than actual good posting behaviour" rather than to support radically sufficient opinions as i have noticed as time went by.
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:36   Link #115
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Boy am I glad to see this. I've always been kind of "meh" about the system anyway, and there's stuff wrong with it but not a clear-cut solution to make it right. People can still make comments to each other via VM or PM, like welcome messages or "awesome work" or such. It stops pointless rep too, and perhaps makes people think a little more about saying things because it will take more effort to go to a profile and write messages than to push "rep" "negative" and make a comment. (or positive, I guess.)
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:40   Link #116
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Not when the neg rep is removed, they could discuss with the "veterans" with out the fear of getting neg rep. Actually, its the fear of neg rep that halts people from arguing with the "veterans" but without it, its free for all. I based that on my actual experience, imagine -20 and a newbie.
If that's really the case (which I find a bit disheartening, honestly), a poster with that view point would similar be encouraged to gain favour with someone with high rep in the hope of thus making a "powerful ally" that can raise their rep score more quickly. This is actually mostly the same behaviour in practice, just in reverse; rather than fearing retribution you're seeking favour. I think that's not really a great way to live in either case.

(This too could probably be solved by other means, granted.)

Perhaps it's too convenient for me to say so now, but I don't believe I have ever modified my posting behaviour based on the specific rep of the person I'm discussing with, and this long before I ever became a mod or later an admin. While obviously getting rep is gratifying, I still pretty much just posted what I felt like posting. So I'm afraid that I can't really identify with that point of view very well.
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:41   Link #117
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
In other words, consider that the result of our discussions was actually this decision to retire the current rep system.
Fair enough, and I'm sure you can get some insights just from regular posters posting about their rep usage habits (though I note that this is not what's actually being asked in this thread), but surely the key points of why it was decided that way would be useful to know? You've shared a lot, but they're spread over a number of posts and indeed a number of threads. It would be much clearer summarized and put up on the first post -- with a disclaimer like "this decision is final" just in case. It shouldn't be just your point of view, of course, but more of an overall staff viewpoint of the what's and why's.

This way, when the future "four scores and a month ago we cut the rep system, now let's hear feedback" thread will not be populated with wild speculative shots in the dark. If we know the staff's problems that led to the closure, then we know what not to ask for. And, moreover, if we know the staff's hopes for a feedback system -- or if the conclusion is that the staff desires none because it's a pain to moderate -- then we are on the same page on that, as well.

I'm certainly not asking for gossip about whether Daniel E. disagrees with 4Tran on this and that and if some other mod thinks relentless is so going the wrong way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Seriously now, yes that is kinda true but is it a really a problem to be alarmed with? Not all are that uhmm.. narrow... I remember I had a discussion with Triple R and we aren't friends back then ( are we really friends now?) but he still gave me a + rep for my continuous discussion though we never agree until the end.
Some people are class acts. They will remain class acts without the rep system.

It may, however, be nice to have a feedback system that could replicate the effect here so you can know someone's a class act by that kind of gesture.

That is certainly one nice way of using the system that the staff may take a note of. Or they may think a "P.S. Hey, thanks for the discussion" is sufficient. Though cookies are a bit more...substantive still.

Quote:
By this, MODs could also track who sends too much to somebody
I'm pretty sure they already can.
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:46   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Fair enough, but surely the key points of why it was decided that way would be useful to know? You've shared a lot, but they're spread over a number of posts and indeed a number of threads. It would be much clearer summarized and put up on the first post -- with a disclaimer like "this decision is final" just in case. It shouldn't be just your point of view, of course, but more of an overall staff viewpoint of the what's and why's.
I think a lot of this was already in the opening post, anyway. I've tried to expand on it in my responses as I can. For now that's what I'm personally willing/able to do on this (particularly at the moment because I need to get some sleep ).
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:48   Link #119
Irenicus
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Then go get some sleep, Mister. It's getting late here, and though I have no idea where in the world you are -- I'm pretty sure it's getting late there as well!

How do you say it in business? "This is not a time sensitive request"?
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Old 2012-12-16, 03:55   Link #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
If that's really the case (which I find a bit disheartening, honestly), a poster with that view point would similar be encouraged to gain favour with someone with high rep in the hope of thus making a "powerful ally" that can raise their rep score more quickly. This is actually mostly the same behaviour in practice, just in reverse; rather than fearing retribution you're seeking favour. I think that's not really a great way to live in either case.
No, its not in my case... I was intimidated by the "Veterans". The only thing that neg rep taught is "just go with the flaw", watch my mouth and avoided discussing sensitive issues I'm unaware.

Most of my rep are from graphic request but some are from discussions as well. I can't say I received them from "friends" but from those who shows appreciation for my works which made me keep going on my role as a Graphic Artist here. I'm proud to say that I'm among the few who earn them through dedication and hard work and not just "gifts" from friends....
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