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Old 2012-12-27, 21:10   Link #41
Last Sinner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
We aren't attacking both we are attacking female oriented series. This is what I was complaining about.

I am not sure why this thread degraded into this because it is not what this thread is about.
The fact the OP also says that makes one wonder why people persist in doing so.
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Old 2012-12-27, 21:15   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Girls can emote despair and sadness more easily and frequently without spurring backlash for it. This is a gender double-standard, of course, but it can be a hard one for people to mentally overcome.

Ah, well said. Personally, I'm not too fond of the double standard that males should ignore their problems by not expressing them except through violence. It leads to people not seeking help for mental issues and shit or they try to solve their problems in too violent a manner. And then sometimes a person sees standing up for oneself to be shooting someone else. It's funny because in times past, that was actually acceptable.

That being said I really don't like characters that just do irresponsible things and get away with it and they're supposed to be heroes that solve their problems as such. A good balance is someone like Kenshin who has a firm grasp of reality and what it means to confront problems.

Quote:
Imagine Shinji Ikari as a female. I think the "emo" and "whiny" criticisms disappear almost entirely.
It would be mitigated, but I think it'd still be there. But hey let's imagine. Let's switch the gender of every character

The story is about Shinjiko Robunaga who has been abandoned by her negligent mother that only cares about herself and has plans for humanity. Shinjiko is duped when a disaster hits Tokyo 3, and a charming and experienced captain named Masato Katsuragi abuses his handsome looks to bring the naive Shinjiko in.
Spoiler for Don't read if you are easily disturbed :p:


Oh dear, I just pulled an Okada.


Quote:
Imagine Kaname Madoka as a male. I think the "emo" and "whiny" criticisms arise like a volcano erupting.
Definitely. But if we gender switched Madoka here, then it would be the ultimate bromance, and people would be sexist and probaly caption images of Homura and her machine gun with "Bros before Hos"
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Old 2012-12-27, 21:44   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
If people think shounen isn't wish fulfillment either...or moe...but call shoujo wish fulfillment...they are deluded...

Anime IS wish fulfillment full stop!

The females in anime don't exist in reality. And neither do the males.

Anime is escapism. So is manga, merchandise, gaming, etc.

Don't just call the section of it you don't like wish fulfillment then claim your own is better. Chasing the dream and being allowed to be the boy-man is as much wish fulfillment as being swept away by the FABulous man of your dreams. Or cute girls eating cake while contemplating playing music.

I think Kirakim's point is that while yes, examples exist of it across the multiple styles, shoujo is the one that is called out and slandered for doing so. Double standards indeed.
I don't think anyone denies harems, typical shounens, etc are wish fulfillment anime for guys. Wish fulfillment is popular and sells well, hence why the mass majority of anime/manga/LN are produced to take advantage of that.
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Old 2012-12-28, 00:58   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon


Definitely. But if we gender switched Madoka here, then it would be the ultimate bromance, and people would be sexist and probaly caption images of Homura and her machine gun with "Bros before Hos"
So male Homura is a time traveling Speedwagon? I would watch the hell out of that.
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Old 2012-12-28, 02:00   Link #45
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Is Shinn Asuka relevant to the thread? If yes, I think I know why it's better to use a girl for suffering.
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Old 2012-12-28, 12:16   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
Why are girls - irrespective of age - used to portray tragedy.
because sexism

japan's views on what is and isn't acceptable for men to do are, if anything, even more screwy than their corresponding views of women, and that's saying something

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Is Shinn Asuka relevant to the thread? If yes, I think I know why it's better to use a girl for suffering.
I think you're confusing "terrible writing" with "terrible gender stereotyping", hth
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Old 2012-12-28, 12:18   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
Or is it because you can tug at the audiences heart strings more effectively with a female tragic figure?
This. Only this. I think tragic little boys can be just as cute....but I'm in the minority....

Quote:
Originally Posted by NK_500
I've yet to see a sympathetically tragic shoujo heroine with tragic past. Instead 90% of them are unsympathetic at best and hate-able at worst.

Are shoujo heroines created to be loathed by readers at first place? I think so.
HA. Boy, are you ever WRONG.

You should actually do research before you state such things. Shoujo heroines are highly looked up to and idolized in Japan. When they take character popularity polls, the heroine seldom gets any spot BUT #1. If she doesn't get 1, she will easily get in the top three.

How do I know this?

I buy the freaking magazines.
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Old 2012-12-28, 15:40   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
because sexism

japan's views on what is and isn't acceptable for men to do are, if anything, even more screwy than their corresponding views of women, and that's saying something
Add to this that Most Writers are Male.

The best place to find tragic male characters is in, not surprisingly, stories adapted from Greek tragedies, and the original Greek tragedies themselves.

I also find a lot of war stories tend to have tragic male characters, simply due to the fact that most all of the characters in war stories are male. I recently played through L.A. Noire, and the main character, Cole Phelps, is absolutely a tragic male hero played completely straight (it's film noir, though, so that isn't too surprising).

Even then, the differences between tragic male characters and tragic female characters tends to be rather blatant, with female characters' tragedies being used to make them seem more appealing to male viewers, and male characters being portrayed as flawed, human and imperfect.

In terms of anime with tragic male characters, Tomoya definitely qualifies, especially in After Story. I also consider Hei from Darker than Black to be a tragic male character, especially in the interquel OVA and the second season. Huang in his backstory arc during season one is also a good example--but this isn't too surprising, as Darker than Black is a film noir story, and film noir almost always has tragic male leads and supporting characters.

It's possible to be tragic and badass at the same time. It's also possible for female characters to be portrayed as tragic without being sexist, too--it all depends on the writing. Sadly, most of the time the tragic heroine is written poorly with the intent to titillate (invoking the "moe" aspect and feelings of pity, sympathy and protectiveness in the viewers) rather than show a flawed, broken, imperfect person.
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Old 2012-12-28, 17:11   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post

Even then, the differences between tragic male characters and tragic female characters tends to be rather blatant, with female characters' tragedies being used to make them seem more appealing to male viewers, and male characters being portrayed as flawed, human and imperfect.
Funny you should say that, as even in Fate Zero, Gilgamesh seems to be titillated by the tragedy of Saber's situation, and Rider wants to 'save' Saber because he feels sorry she can't be a girl.

Quote:

It's possible to be tragic and badass at the same time. It's also possible for female characters to be portrayed as tragic without being sexist, too--it all depends on the writing. Sadly, most of the time the tragic heroine is written poorly with the intent to titillate (invoking the "moe" aspect and feelings of pity, sympathy and protectiveness in the viewers) rather than show a flawed, broken, imperfect person.
However, I think F/Z does present Saber as a tragic and misguided, but still badass character to the audience though, so Gil and Rider's views of Saber are more like Gen's way deconstructing this trope.
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Old 2012-12-28, 18:44   Link #50
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Quote:
I think you're confusing "terrible writing" with "terrible gender stereotyping", hth
I guess so.
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Old 2012-12-28, 19:00   Link #51
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Could be both!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
So male Homura is a time traveling Speedwagon? I would watch the hell out of that.
Yea, really.
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Old 2012-12-28, 22:36   Link #52
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Maybe it's just me, but there's nothing more tragic than male characters without spines and the sum total of testosterone in Arnold's pinkie.
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Old 2012-12-29, 03:49   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eragon View Post
I knew I didn't make myself clear in the opening post.
I'm not talking about characters that have a tragic past - and the nothing later. I'm talking about the show heaping on the misery on the said character in the present - irrespective of his/her past.
And I would also like to ask(although it feels redundant after LastSinners post) if those characters you mention pull your heartstrings just as well were it a female character?
In that case, there's two basic uses of tragedy imposed on characters: as obstacles to overcome, or as a means to evoke sympathy. It seems that you're mostly interested in the latter, so I'll concentrate on that.

The phenomenon of having secondary characters suffer in order to develop the characterization of the protagonist (usually as a means of providing motivation) is familiar to most entertainment media. It does happen more often with female characters in anime, but I think that this is largely an artifact of the kinds of stories told in anime than any other cause.

In Hollywood action films, it's common for an older character's wife (and/or child) die or get captured as a way to provide a narrative and motivation for the protagonist. This can be seen in all sorts of films like Braveheart, Taken, Commando and Gladiator. The male equivalent is the very familiar death of the police officer who's just about to retire. The reason these character events are used so often is because it requires very little time to characterize the victims, but can still evoke a powerful reaction from the audience.

Anime has to take a slightly different tack because the protagonists tend to be unattached teenagers, which makes the viable victims either younger family members, friends or lovers. An interesting trend in anime of the last fifteen years or so is that it's been pretty rare to see female characters die. The reason for this is that they're used as marketing tools for merchandise, and killing them off was thought to discourage potential buyers. The effect then is that male victims will die and female victims will live but suffer for the characterization of the protagonist.
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Old 2012-12-29, 05:58   Link #54
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So if they don't die, they disappear?
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Old 2012-12-29, 06:36   Link #55
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So if they don't die, they disappear?
Transfered to Canada, or they "got better". Otoh, we guys are the expendable gender.
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Old 2012-12-29, 08:02   Link #56
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I think views of innocence regarding women (and children, who I think are also relevant to this topic) also contribute to why they're used so often to evoke sympathy. It might be a lesser role than most of what has been mentioned, but in my opinion it's an interesting perspective to think about.
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Old 2012-12-29, 08:50   Link #57
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I think there's something that must be said regarding the disproportion of "tragic heroines" and "tragic heroes". If you think so chances are that the majority of the anime you see are focused on female characters.
And when I say "focused" I don't mean main character. There's a lot of main characters often spanning from eroge, that barely exist as placeholders for the readers and therefore have little if no background and are usually uninteresting, in a few words the show is not focused on them.

When you get a show that is focused on letting you know more about certain characters or is focused on them there's usually at least one of them with a tragic past. That's because a tragic past is a very effective way to make a character interesting, in general.
Now when a show isn't focused on characters but on the story and so on, there's a lower chance of seeing something tragic.

So my argument can be summarized with this point:

Show me an anime that is focused on male characters, and I'll show you at least one male character with a tragic past or situation that affects him deeply.

Apart from the already mentioned Guts from Bersersk, I can name quite a lot.

-Both Al and Ed Elric from Full Metal Alchemist are haunted by a tragic event that affects them every single day of their life and the whole adventure is to find a way to make up for it.

-The main story of Cowboy Bebop revolves around the tragic past of Spike Spiegel.

- Vash the Stampede is likewise affected by his tragic past which he reacts with an undying optimism (which somehow makes him even more tragic). The show is really focused at making you feel pity for him, especially when you see his body completely devastated by scars. Reverend wolfwood is also the center of one of the most tragic scenes I've ever seen in an anime.

- Kenshiro from Hokuto no Ken, is another good example of tragic character, but generally the whole show is a series of portrayal of manly tragedies. Rei, Raul, Toki, they are all very tragic figures that will make you shed a lot of manly tears.

- Similarly Saint Seiya is filled with "greek tragedies" all revolving around male characters, but on a minor degree since the show is more focused on action.

- Joe Yabuki from Ashita no Joe has become such an icon of tragic death that you'll see he omaged in a hundred of different anime. His whole story is very messed up anyway.

- In Please save my earth there's an entire chapter revolving around Shion's tragic past.

- Likewise in fruit basket there's a huge focus on male characters and their plights but particularly on Kyo Soma.


There's a lot more of course.
The bottom line anyway is that since there is a higher demand for shows that are focused on female characters, it's only natural that you'll see more tragic heroines, especially if you tend to watch that kind of anime. If you are into shoujo... I seriously doubt you think it that way.
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Old 2012-12-29, 14:41   Link #58
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I take it we're defining a tragic character as one who suffers rather than using the more classical definition of a great person whose downfall is brought about by a flaw in their character?

As a male anime viewer, I'll admit I'm often more affected by what happens to female characters than male ones. However even with the girls I'm generally not overly sympathetic towards characters whom I consider to be weak, passive, and whiny. I tend to admire female characters who are strong and proactive and respond to adversity by fighting back. When one of those characters finally gets burned out or ends up having a breakdown, I tend to feel sympathetic.
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Old 2012-12-29, 14:59   Link #59
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Like synaesthetic has mentioned out above, Greek tragedies involve males much more than females.

I believe that there is a similar amount of tragedy portrayed in both genders, just that they are different.

Female tragedies are often played out emotionally and have several emotional peaks that end with a largest peak. But male tragedies are played out by having the character rise extremely high and then dropped suddenly from the peak in the end.

Female suffering seem to be constant suffering that pulls sympathy from the audience throughout while male tragedy has the audience sympathise only in the end when the character falls from the peak.
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Old 2012-12-30, 18:03   Link #60
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It's not just females as tragic, though it's the majority....

As much as I can't stand Evangelion, Shinji has it BAD.

Kirigetsu(sp) from Fate/Zero

Hei from Darker Then Black

Ruoroni Kenshin

All of the male protagionists from Key's shows....except Little Busters because I didn't see that all yet.

The Shisengumi of Hakuoki...

As for why females are the harbingers of tragedy, considering that most of the viewers are males, I guess it all ties back to the MOE thing: Isn't it supposed to mean that the viewers want to protect a character or something like that?
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