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Old 2013-01-12, 16:39   Link #121
Archon_Wing
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Oh and of course this, from Hunter x Hunter
Spoiler for Hunter x Hunter, not safe for anyone.:

This post isn't serious, but there does seem to be more Hisokaservice than I'd really want throughout the series.

As for the creator of HxH, he also did Yu Yu Hakusho which had way tons of male fanservice too.
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Old 2013-01-12, 16:44   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Oh and of course this, from Hunter x Hunter
Spoiler for Hunter x Hunter, not safe for anyone.:

This post isn't serious, but there does seem to be more Hisokaservice than I'd really want throughout the series.
You know what? I absolutely loved it. I am not even what you'd call a yaoi fan. It's just that this kind of service for Hisoka defines one of the quirks of his character.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:01   Link #123
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
The argument seems to be that because the series never pretended to be anything else, then the criticism of it for being what it is kind of misses the point and is not really valid.
I don't think that's really the argument. Or I don't think it was the argument, though it may be a secondary argument.

The argument was that all sexual fanservice in a serious action scene is inherently distracting and so should always be separated (even if they exist in the same show); that there's no good reason not to just keep the fanservice to the light-hearted parts of the show so the serious action scenes can be "serious". This may be in part because some people are trying to focus on the technical execution of the fight, and the fanservice "gets in the way". The counterargument is that it isn't necessarily inherently distracting (particularly if it's the established norm in the show), and there's no reason why there shouldn't be shows that blend the two elements at the same time if they want to. This may be in part because some people are not so focused on the technical execution in the fight of the first place, but appreciating the scene on the whole (in which both the fight and the fanservice are a part).

In the end, I personally think that it's sort of like people who don't like to mix their foods. You could argue that a restaurant shouldn't serve any dishes with mixed food because some people don't like food mixed. But at the same time, the person who doesn't like the mixed food could just ask, and then know what not to order. In that sense it kinda sorta does tie in to your original argument, but not in the same way, since it's about the specific way a show chooses to blend its elements. (This analogy is a bit broken, though, because people who don't like their food mixed can usually just mix it themselves. Mixing the blend of anime elements isn't so easy if it wasn't served that way in the first place.)

For my part, the only reason I started probing at this in the first place was because I've seen a lot of people who have blanket opinions about fanservice in general, but few that argue that "fanservice is fine, just keep it out of these types of scenes". To me, it never occurred to me that there'd be some big line to be drawn there. Then again, I'm not a big fan of action/fighting, so I don't have any particular thing that I'm looking for in those sorts of scenes in the first place.


To put it more simply...
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
There is nothing invalid by pointing out the inherent flaws of a work conceptually.
...is having sexual fanservice blended into action scenes an "inherent flaw" or just an "artistic choice"? I think it's the latter, but it certainly doesn't mean that people have to enjoy it.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:27   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Oh and of course this, from Hunter x Hunter
Spoiler for Hunter x Hunter, not safe for anyone.:
I think given Hisoka’s character as a deranged joker of sorts, that scene doesn’t really count as an actual fanservice for the audience. IMO It’s just a perverted character showing his perverted side (as part of the actual story). But that’s just me.

I do wonder though, are topless male characters fighting while showing their abs also considered sexual fanservice during action? I’m torn here because guys have been fighting topless since the time earlier than the gladiators. It has become routine. Still, I’m not a girl, so I won’t know what good fanservice by male is about .

Also, another question, how about a serious fight which supposed to result in a drama (like, for example, the sadness during the action in which you have to fight and kill you brainwashed friend)? Wouldn’t adding sexual fanservice into that kind of fighting scene will only break the “sadness” mood or drama?

For example:
Spoiler for My scenario:
I don’t know about you guys, but I will find “fanservice shots” in that kind of scenario disturbing .
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:31   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Also, another question, how about a serious fight which supposed to result in a drama (like, for example, the sadness during the action in which you have to fight and kill you brainwashed friend)? Wouldn’t adding sexual fanservice into that kind of fighting scene will only break the “sadness” mood or drama?
If the scene's intentionally playing up the comparison and contrast between sex and violence (a hardly unheard of literary type thing), then it may very well be necessary.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:31   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I think given Hisoka’s character as a deranged joker of sorts, that scene doesn’t really count as an actual fanservice for the audience. IMO It’s just a perverted character showing his perverted side (as part of the actual story). But that’s just me.

I do wonder though, are topless male characters fighting while showing their abs also considered sexual fanservice during action? I’m torn here because guys have been fighting topless since the time earlier than the gladiators. It has become routine. Still I’m not a girl, so I won’t know what good fanservice by male is about .
Well, not explicitly all the time, but there's no doubt an attempt to show off one's body.

It isn't fanservice per say (though there is some gratitious nudity of him :S) but it does fall under perverted comedy, which also happens a bit for what most of us consider ecchi. It's not supposed to be serious.

Then again, I also think hentai is frequently perverted comedy and not meant for arousal too, so YMMV.

Quote:
Also, another question, how about a serious fight which supposed to result in a drama (like, for example, the sadness during the action in which you have to fight and kill you brainwashed friend)? Wouldn’t adding sexual fanservice into that kind of fighting scene will only break the “sadness” mood or drama?

For example:
Spoiler for My scenario:
I don’t know about you guys, but I will find “fanservice shots” in that kind of scenario disturbing .
Yea, that's exactly what I don't like. Though this goes beyond SW so I feel the topic needs to be less specific, since it's not really native to the panty flyer series.

I do find certain combos of sex and violence to be distasteful. Sexualizing violence is usually a bad idea.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:33   Link #127
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Originally Posted by Midonin View Post
If the scene's intentionally playing up the comparison and contrast between sex and violence (a hardly unheard of literary type thing), then it may very well be necessary.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:49   Link #128
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Also, another question, how about a serious fight which supposed to result in a drama (like, for example, the sadness during the action in which you have to fight and kill you brainwashed friend)? Wouldn’t adding sexual fanservice into that kind of fighting scene will only break the “sadness” mood or drama?

For example:
Spoiler for My scenario:
I don’t know about you guys, but I will find “fanservice shots” in that kind of scenario disturbing .
See this fictional example just basically highlights the degree to which this sticks out to you. I mean, even in your example, you've separated out each item after the dialogue, explained it in the most blunt of terms, and put it in bold text. In so doing, you've created another straw man. I don't think very many shows would do it that way, and so dramatically alternate between serious content and "fanservice" in the same scene (unless, I suppose, they were trying to make a very specific form of commentary). Rather, it's more likely that, due to established reasons, the whole scene would occur with the two heroines in some state of undress and whatever "fanservice" there would just be one component of the scene. It wouldn't alternate awkwardly between two incompatible elements because, fundamentally, the two elements would tied together seamlessly into the scene; it's not just "adding sexual fanservice" as if it were mixing oil and water.

If your argument is that there is no way to blend the two elements into the same scene seamlessly, then it's like sensuality has become completely disconnected from the rest of your senses and emotions, and that doesn't seem logical to me. That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be ways to do it poorly and that cause things to stand out in a bad way... but I'm not sure if it's natural for the human body to be that taboo.
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Old 2013-01-12, 17:54   Link #129
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I agree for the most part. I like action scenes to be tense and make your body full of adrenalin. but on the other hand there are times when I think those ecchi scenes are appropiate and as most say its eye candy xD or for men at least.
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Old 2013-01-12, 18:09   Link #130
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
See this fictional example just basically highlights the degree to which this sticks out to you. I mean, even in your example, you've separated out each item after the dialogue, explained it in the most blunt of terms, and put it in bold text. In so doing, you've created another straw man. I don't think very many shows would do it that way, and so dramatically alternate between serious content and "fanservice" in the same scene (unless, I suppose, they were trying to make a very specific form of commentary). Rather, it's more likely that, due to established reasons, the whole scene would occur with the two heroines in some state of undress and whatever "fanservice" there would just be one component of the scene. It wouldn't alternate awkwardly between two incompatible elements because, fundamentally, the two elements would tied together seamlessly into the scene; it's not just "adding sexual fanservice" as if it were mixing oil and water.
FYI, I only bolded the fanservice so that other members will know which ones I considered as fanservice. I didn't mean to highlight them out of dislike.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
If your argument is that there is no way to blend the two elements into the same scene seamlessly, then it's like sensuality has become completely disconnected from the rest of your senses and emotions, and that doesn't seem logical to me. That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be ways to do it poorly and that cause things to stand out in a bad way... but I'm not sure if it's natural for the human body to be that taboo.
It's not the body that is taboo. It's the "focusing shots" (with perverted intention) during dramatic battle that disturb me. If you (and others) are okay with that, it's fine with me. Just so you know, I ask the questions above precisely to get opinions from people with varied view on the matter.
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Old 2013-01-12, 18:13   Link #131
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Then again, I also think hentai is frequently perverted comedy and not meant for arousal too, so YMMV.
Who said the two are mutually exclusive?
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Old 2013-01-12, 18:21   Link #132
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
It's not the body that is taboo. It's the "focusing shots" (with perverted intention) during dramatic battle that disturb me. If you (and others) are okay with that, it's fine with me.
Well, I don't know if I'd be "okay with it" -- it depends entirely on how it was done. If it were done the way it was written in your example, it would probably seem strange depending on the context of the rest of the work. But I can say that I had no problems following and engaging in the story of Strike Witches, for example, which has also been used as an example. Some of the other examples that have been used, I haven't watched.

The argument seems to be largely about "the principle of the thing", but I don't know if it's a principle. So, I can't say if I'm okay with it "on principle", though I think it's okay for all sorts of presentation approaches to exist, and have apparently been okay with some examples in practice. I do see that some people seem to dislike it purely on principle, though.
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Old 2013-01-12, 18:25   Link #133
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I don't think that's really the argument. Or I don't think it was the argument, though it may be a secondary argument.

The argument was that all sexual fanservice in a serious action scene is inherently distracting and so should always be separated (even if they exist in the same show); that there's no good reason not to just keep the fanservice to the light-hearted parts of the show so the serious action scenes can be "serious". This may be in part because some people are trying to focus on the technical execution of the fight, and the fanservice "gets in the way". The counterargument is that it isn't necessarily inherently distracting (particularly if it's the established norm in the show), and there's no reason why there shouldn't be shows that blend the two elements at the same time if they want to. This may be in part because some people are not so focused on the technical execution in the fight of the first place, but appreciating the scene on the whole (in which both the fight and the fanservice are a part).

In the end, I personally think that it's sort of like people who don't like to mix their foods. You could argue that a restaurant shouldn't serve any dishes with mixed food because some people don't like food mixed. But at the same time, the person who doesn't like the mixed food could just ask, and then know what not to order. In that sense it kinda sorta does tie in to your original argument, but not in the same way, since it's about the specific way a show chooses to blend its elements. (This analogy is a bit broken, though, because people who don't like their food mixed can usually just mix it themselves. Mixing the blend of anime elements isn't so easy if it wasn't served that way in the first place.)

For my part, the only reason I started probing at this in the first place was because I've seen a lot of people who have blanket opinions about fanservice in general, but few that argue that "fanservice is fine, just keep it out of these types of scenes". To me, it never occurred to me that there'd be some big line to be drawn there. Then again, I'm not a big fan of action/fighting, so I don't have any particular thing that I'm looking for in those sorts of scenes in the first place.
Well I am responding more to the second argument then, but to the main discussion topic at hand...

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
To put it more simply......is having sexual fanservice blended into action scenes an "inherent flaw" or just an "artistic choice"? I think it's the latter, but it certainly doesn't mean that people have to enjoy it.
Both if you see that artistic choice as conceptually flawed. Sexual fanservice can easily undermine a show if used poorly. It could degrade its characters into nothing but sacks of meat to oggle over. It could be distracting in a scene when the conversations are constantly interrupted by breast bouncing and reactionary blushing (which usually ends in some sort of "ECCHI!!!!!" slap moment ). If a show uses fanservice poorly, then it's going to have problems.

Now is there such a thing as well used fanservice in an action series? Well if the goal is to offer a "turn on" for its audience, then it has to provide this in a way without compromising the other aspects of a show. When you're in a serious conversation scene and then someone suddenly starts groping another character's breasts, then this is damaging to the integrity of the storytelling. The show is then blatantly telling its audience to be amused and find what they're being shown erotic. More often than not for me personally this is going to completely miss the mark of what fanservice should be trying to achieve.

Subtler forms of fanservice do a lot better. The kinds that are present, but not thrust into the viewer's face.

Now a show like strike witches I wouldn't even call serious, so I think that's a really poor example for the topic at hand.
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Old 2013-01-12, 18:40   Link #134
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Now a show like strike witches I wouldn't even call serious, so I think that's a really poor example for the topic at hand.
Well, that was the context for the original comparison in the Vivid Red Operation thread (since Strike Witches was from the same director, and Vivid Red Operation is being pitched in some ways as a sort of spiritual successor). We already had a conversation earlier (in what is now this thread) about the role the tone/nature of the show might have on your expectations from how the "serious" scenes would be presented, but the argument is that if a show is going to have "serious action" scenes, they should presented devoid of sexual fanservice that "unavoidably distracts". It was also suggested that the action/fighting scenes in Strike Witches were pitched as "serious", and thus qualified for this requirement. But some suggested that the tone of the overall show was significantly different, and so to directly compare a way an action scene is handled in Strike Witches/Vivid Red Operation to the way one is handled in, say, Fate/Zero may not be terribly useful.

(Well, anyway, I'm summarizing conversations that already happened in this thread. It may be helpful just to read it through from the beginning. But it's not really a poor example for the topic at hand, because that was the original context.)
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Old 2013-01-12, 18:56   Link #135
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I don't mind some fanservice in action though if talk about Strike Witches, I still can't figure out why they are always in their underwear... it just makes no sense except lame/obviouse fanservice that is actually forced down your throat.

Even though I liked the show and didn't mind some fanservice, I still believe that they should at LEAST have skirts!
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Old 2013-01-12, 19:33   Link #136
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I don't mind some fanservice in action though if talk about Strike Witches, I still can't figure out why they are always in their underwear... it just makes no sense except lame/obviouse fanservice that is actually forced down your throat.
It's not underwear so they're not embarrassed?

I think it's just a distinguishing trait. The show was basically about a group of girls working together to save the world... and doing it all without wearing pants. I suppose you could argue that they needed to be able to quickly get into their flight gear at a moment's notice, but there were doubtless other ways they could have done it too if they really wanted to. Maybe you could argue that, on some level, it was some sort of commentary, while also being fanservice. In the end, it's just a unique part of the premise. I'm not sure the show would be as widely-known or remembered if not for this unique trait.
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Old 2013-01-12, 19:43   Link #137
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Originally Posted by Reckoner
artistic choice as conceptually flawed
Can we rephrase that as "artistic choice that I don't like." ?

That's really all it boils down to. For example, I'll try screwing around with your words to get a different "conceptually flawed" out of it.

On the topic of choosing to make a series soft scifi
Quote:
It could degrade its setting into nothing but useless technobabble coating a fantasy setting. It could be distracting in a scene when the conversations are constantly interrupted by scientifically inaccurate explanations and violations of thermodynamics, casuaty, relatively, and whatever other fundamental parts of the universe the damn author doesn't like (which usually ends in some sort of shitty technobabble moment ). If a show uses science poorly, then it's going to have problems.
Tada~ So why isn't soft scifi conceptually flawed? I used the exact same argument you used for fanservice, the exact same words even.

Because neither is conceptually flawed. It's a matter of whether the artistic choices agree with your personal preferences or not. That's pretty much it.
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Old 2013-01-12, 19:51   Link #138
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Personally, I don't mind at all. I have the option of choosing the type of action/combat sequences that I watch: if I wanted something serious, I'll watch something serious, and if I wish for something light-hearted, I'll watch something else that satisfies my ever-changing criterion. In the context of Vividred Operation, the gear the girls have is somehow less revealing than their regular outfits, so I'm not too sure what all the fuss is about
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:03   Link #139
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Can we rephrase that as "artistic choice that I don't like." ?
It's all opinions, so why have a discussion right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
(Well, anyway, I'm summarizing conversations that already happened in this thread. It may be helpful just to read it through from the beginning. But it's not really a poor example for the topic at hand, because that was the original context.)
Yeah I understand the original context, I'm just questioning the assertion that these shows are somehow "serious" in any way and why the discussion of these might be fundamentally misguided. Whether or not fanservice fits in these series, well that's a different question.
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:03   Link #140
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
Can we rephrase that as "artistic choice that I don't like." ?

That's really all it boils down to. For example, I'll try screwing around with your words to get a different "conceptually flawed" out of it.

On the topic of choosing to make a series soft scifi

Quote:
It could degrade its setting into nothing but useless technobabble coating a fantasy setting. It could be distracting in a scene when the conversations are constantly interrupted by scientifically inaccurate explanations and violations of thermodynamics, casuaty, relatively, and whatever other fundamental parts of the universe the damn author doesn't like (which usually ends in some sort of shitty technobabble moment ). If a show uses science poorly, then it's going to have problems.

Tada~ So why isn't soft scifi conceptually flawed? I used the exact same argument you used for fanservice, the exact same words even.

Because neither is conceptually flawed. It's a matter of whether the artistic choices agree with your personal preferences or not. That's pretty much it.
Actaully that statement remains consistent even in the switched context. Technobabble and bad science can undermine a show if used badly enough. Most people might not notice because the science isn't usually that important, there's plenty of situations where it undermines the suspension of belief.

In fact the very word technobabble is popularized from Star Trek, and it did a pretty good job of crashing that franchise into the ground.

It doesn't mean soft scifi is inherently bad, but the concepts inherent to it can still undermine its storytelling.
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