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Old 2013-01-12, 20:16   Link #141
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Yeah I understand the original context, I'm just questioning the assertion that these shows are somehow "serious" in any way and why the discussion of these might be fundamentally misguided. Whether or not fanservice fits in these series, well that's a different question.
Strike Witches did play its premise "straight", so to speak. In other words, the threat to the world was presented as a serious threat, and not as something comedic or totally campy in nature. It was more truly destructive horror than it was some "monster" out of Scooby Doo. And recruitment of more strike witches to take up the cause was presented as a serious matter.

Strike Witches defending Earth from these mysterious alien monstrosities wasn't played like, say, Daffy Duck defending Earth from Marvin the Martian. It wasn't what I would call "comedic action". That's not to say that the show didn't have its lighthearted moments - It certainly did - But its conflicts were treated as serious struggles played much more for drama than comedy.


On the whole, what I saw of Strike Witches struck me as being tonally comparable to Nanoha StrikerS or Rinne no Lagrange.
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:30   Link #142
Random32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
It's all opinions, so why have a discussion right?
But why conceptually flawed? I think that suggests something more than just a preference. Something more appropriate to describing a bad business model or something, rather than an artistic choice that doesn't suit your tastes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing
Most people might not notice because the science isn't usually that important, there's plenty of situations where it undermines the suspension of belief.
There are definitely moments when it undermines suspension of believe for some people.

For example, there were many moments of SwordArtOnline that made me cringe, because MMO's totally don't work that way regardless of whether super cool neural link technology is used or not. Of course, for a lot of the audience, that probably didn't matter.

My standard for believable scifi is different from someone else's standard of believable scifi. Similarly, my standard for appropriate fanservice is different from someone else's. I don't see why it makes hard to believe scifi or inappropriate fanservice conceptually flawed though.

Quote:
In fact the very word technobabble is popularized from Star Trek, and it did a pretty good job of crashing that franchise into the ground.
Wut. I would argue that Trek popularized soft scifi space operas. It did a lot to reduce "space opera" as an insult to a series.
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:32   Link #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
On the whole, what I saw of Strike Witches struck me as being tonally comparable to Nanoha StrikerS or Rinne no Lagrange.
Yeah, I don't particularly view Nanoha as the most serious thing, especially when

Spoiler:


Rinne no Lagrange is also quite the light hearted story for the most part. I never once was able to take it that seriously.


---

Look, I think you can still have a point with your argument, but I just wouldn't try to portray these series as all that serious to fortify your argument. Is something like scooby doo all that serious because they're solving mysteries and busting criminals? There is a place for light hearted stories that are not primarily concerned with throwing overt fanservice in one's face constantly. And hey, fanservice can get in the way of enjoying a more light hearted story too. I do not think you need to pursue this avenue of "serious action series and fanservice don't go together" because it implies that fanservice is only meant for more light hearted series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
But why conceptually flawed? I think that suggests something more than just a preference. Something more appropriate to describing a bad business model or something, rather than an artistic choice that doesn't suit your tastes.
I say conceptually flawed because some ideas are just plain not good. Yeah, it's up to the person to determine that and all we can do is provide reasons for our viewpoint that may or not convince you or others.
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:39   Link #144
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Yeah, I don't particularly view Nanoha as the most serious thing, especially when

Spoiler:


Rinne no Lagrange is also quite the light hearted story. I never once was able to take it that seriously.
So you are saying that the death of an important character makes a serie instantly more serious >_>
That is very debatable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I say conceptually flawed because some ideas are just plain not good. Yeah, it's up to the person to determine that and all we can do is provide reasons for our viewpoint that may or not convince you or others.
To be honest, it's still a matter of opinion. I have seen people who were not distracted by fanservice in battle.
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:41   Link #145
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
So you are saying that the death of an important character makes a serie instantly more serious >_>
That is very debatable.
I did not say this.

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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
To be honest, it's still a matter of opinion. I have seen people who were not distracted by it.
Of course it's an opinion. What good does it do to point that out?
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:42   Link #146
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I did not say this.
You did imply that Nonoha is not a serious serie, just because nobody important dies
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:45   Link #147
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
You did imply that Nonoha is not a serious serie, just because nobody important dies
No I said it's not a particularly serious series, especially when you take that fact into consideration. I never stated something broadly like "someone needs to die for it to be serious." I would never say this.
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:51   Link #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
Who said the two are mutually exclusive?
Nobody....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post

There are definitely moments when it undermines suspension of believe for some people.
Oh let's not go there. Yes, there are few statements that are entirely inclusive. We can stop bringing that up. Otherwise, I'll just be a dick and say that as long as someone's suspension of belief is affected, then it is true.
Quote:
For example, there were many moments of SwordArtOnline that made me cringe, because MMO's totally don't work that way regardless of whether super cool neural link technology is used or not. Of course, for a lot of the audience, that probably didn't matter.

My standard for believable scifi is different from someone else's standard of believable scifi. Similarly, my standard for appropriate fanservice is different from someone else's. I don't see why it makes hard to believe scifi or inappropriate fanservice conceptually flawed though.
People have different standards. But some standards are more common and at least some are valid. Just because they are different doesn't mean it's invalid.

Nobody was arguing that fanservice is conceptually flawed, which is why the post you quoted talked about "if used poorly" but details are annoying, right?

Anyhow, my point is that there are pitfalls inherent to a concept. It doesn't mean it's always bad, but it's also prone to compromising the integrity of a storytelling.

Furthermore, there's also a widespread opinion that certain types of sexualization in all media formats are incredibly degrading to people and that it's quite sexist. Not everyone agrees with this, but is the concern suddenly invalid, since we must blindly climb the tunnels of pointless subjectivity?

Quote:
Wut. I would argue that Trek popularized soft scifi space operas. It did a lot to reduce "space opera" as an insult to a series.
That has nothing to with what I said, so I must wut back to you too.

Yes, it did a lot of productive things, but it also introduced a lot of contradictory psuedoscience and technobabble (the only reason I brought up Star Trek in the first place) and caused them to contentiously fit the canon to it.

Movies and ratings declined, and the most recent tv series had been cancelled prematurely and a number of years were waited in an attempt to reboot the franchise. So it obviously did have an effect, so I'll throw that in before the "it's your opinion" argument comes in
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-01-12 at 21:04.
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:52   Link #149
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
No I said it's not a particularly serious series, especially when you take that fact into consideration. I never stated something broadly like "someone needs to die for it to be serious." I would never say this.
Which makes the whole consideration of nobody dying entirely moot if you are not going to use it as an argument to enforce the statement why Nanoha is not a serious serie.


Also you used the word "especially", which normally indicates a good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post



Of course it's an opinion. What good does it do to point that out?
If it's your opinion, then why call it a conceptual flaw if you can't exactly proof that the concept of having both fanservice and serious action at the same time is flawed?

Last edited by hyl; 2013-01-12 at 21:02.
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Old 2013-01-12, 20:58   Link #150
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Nobody....
The way you phrased it kinda implied the two things cannot go together (at least not for you), which is untrue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Of course it's an opinion. What good does it do to point that out?
What good does it do repeating the very same opinion over and over again, with little to no variation?
Because that's basically what's happening in this thread for quite some time now.
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Old 2013-01-12, 21:11   Link #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
The way you phrased it kinda implied the two things cannot go together (at least not for you), which is untrue.
My point is that hentai tends to be easier to laugh at than to get off too. Which is why I put YMMV since there's really no point in speaking for other people on this.

Is it possible for something to be both, yes? Hentai is not the only kind of medium that may have been intended for arousal. There's all kinds of porn and erotica after all. But as my experience dictates, this is by and far the outlier.

Ultimately, I'm trying to say that sexual fanservice has much more use than just mere arousal.
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Old 2013-01-12, 21:30   Link #152
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Which makes the whole consideration of nobody dying entirely moot if you are not going to use it as an argument to enforce the statement why Nanoha is not a serious serie.


Also you used the word "especially", which normally indicates a good reason.
It's merely a contributing reason, but not the only reason in that particular case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
If it's your opinion, then why call it a conceptual flaw if you can't exactly proof that the concept of having both fanservice and serious action at the same time is flawed?
If it's an opinion why say anything? Why even have a forum? Nothing can be proven and all discussion becomes pointless.

Yes it's my opinion that it is a conceptual flaw, and there are provided reasons for that. Do you disagree with my reasoning? Perhaps you do, but pointing out that it's my opinion is meaningless. Of course it is.
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Old 2013-01-12, 21:32   Link #153
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
My point is that hentai tends to be easier to laugh at than to get off too. - as my experience dictates
My "experience" says the opposite, but experience is at best anecdotal...

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Ultimately, I'm trying to say that sexual fanservice has much more use than just mere arousal.
Its primary use/goal is arousal. The rest are all collateral benefits.
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Old 2013-01-12, 21:36   Link #154
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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
My "experience" says the opposite, but experience is at best anecdotal...
That's sorta my point.

Quote:
Then again, I also think hentai is frequently perverted comedy and not meant for arousal too, so YMMV.
And I put an emoticon, so umm, yea. I'm not sure how else to express it's just my opinion based on anecdote.

Quote:
Its primary use/goal is arousal. The rest are all collateral benefits.
Maybe, but that doesn't make them less useful or less important. Hell, I could claim that sex is primarily for procreation by and far throughout most multicelluar living things, and that pleasure is just collateral and incentive. But that's not how most would believe right? At least in terms of humans, sex is a powerful thing in culture and permeates it. It is far more interesting than just arousal.
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Old 2013-01-12, 21:42   Link #155
hyl
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
It's merely a contributing reason, but not the only reason in that particular case.
Why did you use "especially" and a mere secundary reason as your sole reason for calling that serie not serious?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
If it's an opinion why say anything? Why even have a forum? Nothing can be proven and all discussion becomes pointless.

Yes it's my opinion that it is a conceptual flaw, and there are provided reasons for that. Do you disagree with my reasoning? Perhaps you do, but pointing out that it's my opinion is meaningless. Of course it is.
Because you make it sound as if it was a fact with posts like these

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
There is nothing invalid by pointing out the inherent flaws of a work conceptually.
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post

Both if you see that artistic choice as conceptually flawed. Sexual fanservice can easily undermine a show if used poorly. It could degrade its characters into nothing but sacks of meat to oggle over. It could be distracting in a scene when the conversations are constantly interrupted by breast bouncing and reactionary blushing (which usually ends in some sort of "ECCHI!!!!!" slap moment ). If a show uses fanservice poorly, then it's going to have problems.
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Old 2013-01-12, 21:48   Link #156
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Hell, I could claim that sex is primarily for procreation by and far throughout most multicelluar living things, and that pleasure is just collateral and incentive.
From a biological/genetic viewpoint, that's just exactly how it is.

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But that's not how most would believe right?
That's just because humans don't normally think [only] in biological terms during their everyday lives.
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Old 2013-01-12, 21:52   Link #157
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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
From a biological/genetic viewpoint, that's just exactly how it is.
Which doesn't make all the side effects less important. Why else would we devote entire industries and art to sexual pleasure?

Quote:
That's just because humans don't normally think [only] in biological terms during their everyday lives.
Sure they do. But there's this thing called civilization which separates humanity from all other forms of known life that forces the issue to be more complex.

And whatever biological programming has it, the fact is that plenty of people have found other reasons to fuck beyond just to reproduce.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:00   Link #158
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Why did you use "especially" and a mere secundary reason as your sole reason for calling that serie not serious?
I never said it was secondary, just that on top on everything else it makes it especially so.

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Because you make it sound as if it was a fact with posts like these
It is self-evident that these kinds of things are opinions.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:02   Link #159
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Why else would we devote entire industries and art to sexual pleasure?
To...pleasure ourselves?

Quote:
And whatever biological programming has it, the fact is that plenty of people have found other reasons to fuck beyond just to reproduce.
I'd say there's only one other reason than that: the pleasure derived from it.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:05   Link #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
To...pleasure ourselves?
Why yes, that's a side effect of teh secks. It is not the primary purpose, but people sure are interested! And what about the art part? Sex can be used as many different types of symbolism and concepts in fiction that don't all end up ultimately as fap material.


Quote:
I'd say there's only one other reason than that: the pleasure derived from it.
There are many levels and types of pleasure though. It's a pretty broad concept.

Regardless, this is oversimplifying the issue.
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